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Talk:James A. Lindsay/Archive 2

< Talk:James A. Lindsay
Latest comment: 3 months ago by XMcan in topic Reverts
Archive 1 Archive 2

Academic label

Latest comment: 4 months ago25 comments13 people in discussion

Having a math degree does not make someone a mathematician. Just because Vox called him a mathematician doesn't make him that. He has no relevant publications in mathematics. He shouldn't have mathematician in his top line bio any more than KSM should be labeled as a prominent engineer. Lesabot (talk) 02:10, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

When in doubt, we go by the what the reliable sources say. The reliable sources call Lindsay a mathematician. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:00, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
Wow, I'd heard about this but I didn't think it was real. Dissenting opinions are instantly pulled (as will this one) and this is what passes for scholarship? Lindsay's credibility is improving. This time I'm really not coming back gotta go have a talk with my kid about the credibility of Wikipedia. My previous comment directly challenged the suggestion that a bloke with a PhD in maths is somehow not a mathematician and that the choice of Hitler (stint as an artist) as opposed to Stalin's career as a bank robber was troubling. 2600:4040:29F6:FD00:0:0:0:8ED (talk) 20:56, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
We're not here to do scholarship. That's sort of the whole point of WP:OR. Do let us know how that talk goes, though! Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 21:50, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
'Dissenting opinions' are allowed so long as they are constructive efforts to improve the article. What is not allowed is using the talk page as a WP:FORUM - this is not a place for general complaining or airing of your personal views. MrOllie (talk) 22:09, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
My original comment was more on point than the one (above) you did not delete. Your subsequent comments seem designed to leave one with the impression that my original comment was worse. This isn't a healthy environment, indeed this "Talk" page is more elucidating then the actual article on Dr. Lindsay. Bottom line, I have satisfied myself that one should not use this Wikipedia Article to inform an opinion on James Lindsay. 2600:4040:29F6:FD00:0:0:0:8ED (talk) 22:59, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Anyone may easily look in the history of this page and verify my characterization is accurate. MrOllie (talk) 23:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Here is an article specifically calling Adolf Hitler a painter: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46991969 Shall I add that to his top line bio or would that be silly because it is not what he was known for? Lesabot (talk) 02:10, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

That article doesn't describe him being a painter as central at all, it doesn't say "painter Adolf Hitler" or something, it says the exact opposite in fact: The watercolours were created in the early 20th Century while Hitler, later guilty of some of the worst crimes in history, worked as a painter in Munich – that being, you know, Hitler, was more important than some paintings he happened to have done.
Regarding Lindsay, the label is very well sourced, e.g: [1] mathematician James Lindsay, [2] James A. Lindsay, a mathematician, [3] Mathematician James Lindsay, [4] mathematician James Lindsay, [5] Author and mathematician James Lindsey, [6] mathematician James Lindsay, etc. Your original research about how Lindsay doesn't qualify as a "mathematician" is irrelevant, Wikipedia follows what is published in reliable sources. It doesn't matter if you think sources are wrong, we are interested in verifiability, not "truth". ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 06:45, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
It's not independent research. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C22&q=James+a+Lindsay&btnG=&oq=jam There is a perfectly good Scholar search showing that he hasn't published a math paper. He is not a mathematician. I have a tweet from a verified twitter account with 75k followers calling him a "weirdo". Would that be enough provenance to ad "weirdo" to his list? Lesabot (talk) 11:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
Twitter accounts are not reliable sources just because 75k people follow them. It is also original research to say that mathematicians are people who show up in that google scholar search. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 11:26, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
So verified twitter accounts aren't good enough, but a Vox article is. Ok. Also Mathematician says that they have to use math in their work. Shall I add to that page that being a mathematician can also be because you were called that in Vox? Lesabot (talk) 11:37, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
Yes, Vox is considered a reliable source. A verified Twitter account would probably not be considered a reliable source for opinions of others, and it certainly wouldn't trump neutral designations in multiple reliable third-party sources like Vox. No, you should not make that edit to the Mathematician article, because it's not notable and relevant to that subject. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:53, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
Seems pretty relevant that being called a Mathematician in Vox is sufficient to get one labeled a Mathematician. It certainly would have helped me out. I mean, I thought that you actually had to do math as part of your work (per the entry). But, if that isn't the case then people should probably know that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lesabot (talk • contribs) 22:08, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
But is that fact—one about Wikipedia's own internal standards for sourcing—sufficiently notable for inclusion in the mathematician article? Can you find a source outside of Vox that discusses this fact about Vox and Wikipedia? The same logic would apply to biologist and a myriad of other articles about human occupations/endeavors/areas of specialty. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:51, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
The way sources describe Lindsay determines how our article describes Lindsay. This isn't that complicated. Schazjmd (talk) 22:56, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Because I think that people looking for mathematicians should actually find people who do math. Signed, a mathematician who actually does math Here, since a tweet from his account was good enough to cite (citation 2), here is another tweet from his account in which he states that he is a "dumbass" https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1379129802976858128 Can I add that to his list? Lesabot (talk) 23:11, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps the lead should read: "James Stephen Lindsay (born June 8, 1979), known professionally as James A. Lindsay, is an American mathematician, author, cultural critic, and self-professed dumbass." Lol. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:42, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Seems like the reliable sources say Lindsay is a mathemetician. As as outsider looking at this Talk page, it appears that there may be editors in this discussion that are trying to influence how the guy is described in this article because they don't like some aspect of his views. Wikipedia doesn't, or shouldn't, do that. Wikipedia can say that the person is whatever they are, and also explicate their notable/controversial/well-sourced views, just as long as not WP:UNDUE and keeping a neutral point of view. N2e (talk) 11:39, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

My issue is that I think things should both be verifiable AND true (as well as useful) if possible. Just because someone is described as something in a publication doesn't mean that they need that in their bio. Just like I said above, describing Hitler as "a painter" before anything else would be absurd, but even that isn't as absurd as calling Lindsey a mathematician. Or, is the going convention that we should shove every possible descriptor into a person's bio? If that is the case then game on. Lesabot (talk) 21:19, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Lindsay earned a Phd in Mathematics. According to Oxford dictionary and Merriam webster which are both considered secondary sources in wikipedia a mathematician is either "a person who is an expert in mathematics" (Oxford) or "a specialist or expert in mathematics" (Merriam Webster). Thus there is no arguing whether he is a mathematician. However because he is mainly an author and culture critic and not working in the fields of mathematics one could think about re-arranging the introduction text to author, culture critic and mathematician or similar variants...Mikeschaerer (talk) 00:12, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

People, get real. Regardless of what one may think of Lindsay's politics or his various activities, he is *not* what mathematicians would ever call a mathematician. Having a PhD does not make one a mathematician; one needs to get some original work done afterwards. What Wikipedia policy indicates we should call him is another issue - but hinting (or rather baldly stating) that "editors in this discussion that are trying to influence how the guy is described in this article [do so] because they don't like some aspect of his views" is both factually wrong and non-constructive.

Two (or rather three) cents: (a) stating that he has a PhD in mathematics is, of course, objective - and I do not see who would object to that sort of statement in the appropriate place of the article; (b) having a PhD in mathematics does not make one a specialist or an expert - it is the beginning of a road in that direction; (c) a periodical may be a reliable source on some subjects yet clearly not on the subject of professional qualifications (especially those with fuzzy edges). Garald (talk) 17:55, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps we can resolve this conflict by using the past tense to describe Lindsay's mathematical endeavors. He certainly has practiced mathematics and has obtained advanced degrees in the subject, but I have been unable to find any evidence that he has done so in the past decade. Stellaathena (talk) 14:42, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

It was in a somewhat off-the-cuff statement but in a recent video Lindsay referred to himself as a "former mathematician." [7] Vox, "reliable sources," etc. are likely to be wrong or at least imprecise about any number of things. Persons unfamiliar with academic professions often apply these labels liberally. Persons familiar with academic professions probably would colloquially call him a mathematician in the sense that this is his area of training or expertise, but probably would not call him a mathematician in the professional sense of continued practice and/or achievement in the area. Stellaathena's suggestion to just talk around it probably makes sense. Few Ingredients (talk) 20:49, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

For the record, Lindsay does not fit Wikipedia's own definition of a Mathematician. After his PhD he opened a massage studio before becoming an author on grievance studies.
Source: https://www.thedailytimes.com/news/maryville-man-walks-path-of-healing-and-combat/article_5ea3c0ca-2e98-5283-9e59-06861b8588cb.html
https://religionnews.com/2021/05/18/james-lindsay-southern-baptists-crt-al-mohler-hoax-new-discourses-beth-moorerace-ofallon/ 47.152.241.22 (talk) 13:21, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Reverts

Latest comment: 3 months ago57 comments9 people in discussion

XMcan, could you please discuss instead of reverting other editors? Ping to Viriditas and MrOllie. Valereee (talk) 23:34, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Sure, Valereee, I got a little carried away on account of MrOllies’ frequent reverts. I’m happy to abide by 1 rv per editor if others abide by it. Thanks for the reminder! As for the contentious material in this BLP, I have an alternative solution that I will present soon. Hopefully, the compromise solution will be acceptable to other editors, at least on an interim basis and until we find a more permanent solution. XMcan (talk) 14:17, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
The 'permanent solution' is to respect the consensus that has been arrived at over several discussions on this talk page - it is what is currently in the article. MrOllie (talk) 14:19, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
@Valereee:, XMCan ignored your request and went right back to reverting without any discussion. Viriditas (talk) 17:59, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
I concur with XMcan here. Lindsay is the author of Cynical Theories, which is a criticism of postmodernism. The article for the book is categorized as such and is included in Template:Criticism of postmodernism, as is Lindsay. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:57, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
That's nice, but can you explain to XMcan that the edit summary is not the place for discussion? Viriditas (talk) 00:00, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
According to Kathryn Joyce's 2022 Salon article, Lindsay began as an Obama volunteer and a staunch atheist who wrote three books in support of New atheism (It's worth noting that this important aspect of his work is omitted from the lede). Over time, Joyce claims, his views have shifted more and more to the right (although presumably he still remains an atheist). Joyce identifies Glenn Beck and Alex Jones as the reigning conspiracy theorists of the right but does not explicitly label Lindsay as one.
Lindsay may or may not be a conspiracy theorist of this or that kind. I personally have no problem either way. What's problematic for me is the source referenced in the lede to support the CMCT claim, namely Mr. Rabinowitz’s article. It is clearly a WP:PARTISAN opinion piece whose author has personal entanglements with the people covered in his article.
My position is that we need better quality source(s) to label Lindsay as a conspiracy theorist of antisemitic and pro-Christian variety (CM/CMCT article is very specific about these two aspects). Additionally, there are currently no sources referenced in the lede that support the LGBT GCT label.
As an interim solution and for all the stated reasons, I am placing a [better source needed] tag on the last sentence of the lede. Hopefully, this tag will prove less controversial than outright removal of that sentence, which in this case is arguably justifiable per WP:BLP, as the boxed policy at the top of this Talk page urges us to do. XMcan (talk) 01:11, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
Kind of convenient for you to cite a 2022 article while ignoring the entire year of 2023 when Lindsay spent his time spreading conspiracy theories on Twitter. Viriditas (talk) 01:27, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
I first heard of Lindsay a few years back when the grievance studies affair was making national and international headlines. If someone were to encounter him today through a controversial tweet, I imagine they would have quite a different initial impression. XMcan (talk) 14:38, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
  • I added another source, but (in addition to what it says in its own voice) it also describes and cites the Southern Poverty Law Center summary of Lindsay, which we can see here. That should probably be present and attributed somewhere in the article as well - it is currently cited for something trivial but it's not really summarized or mentioned, and if it's getting secondary coverage then it is probably worth a sentence, possibly even in the lead. Secondary coverage of their article on him is [8][9] - this would be in addition to what's already there, of course. --Aquillion (talk) 05:24, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Links to Frankfurt School conspiracy theory

The Centre Daily states that Lindsay promoted the conspiracy theory that LGBTQ supporters are pedophiles.[10] There is no mention of Marxism or CMCT in that source. Centre Daily Times is a small, local newspaper and the hometown media outlet for Penn State. I'm not familiar with this source and don't see it listed in RSP, so I don’t know how reliable or partisan it is.

LA Times refers to Lindsay as conservative influencer that the nonprofit advocacy organization Southern Poverty Law Center describes as a promoter of anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric and “conspiracy theories about the supposed communist takeover of the world.”[11]

As the WP:LATIMES article clearly spells out, the SPLC is an advocacy organization. According to the Biographies of Living Persons policy (WP:BPL), the SPLC guideline (WP:SPLC), and the Reliable Sources guideline on opinion sources (WP:RSOPINION), anything sourced from the SPLC in a BLP needs in-text attribution (WP:INTEXT).

That said, the SPLC profile on Lindsay claims he promotes conspiracy theories and lists a long litany of them. Sadly, it has no named author, but the writing style is undeniably RSOPINION. At one point, it even uses Lindsay’s hobby interest in massage therapy as a put down: “In October 2018, the massage therapist gained national attention for his part in…”

Most importantly, what the SPLC profile doesn’t have is any direct reference to CMCT, the Frankfurt School conspiracy theory, the Frankfurt School, or any hint of accusations of antisemitism. Do you doubt for a moment that if there were anything linking Lindsay to antisemitism or antisemitic conspiracy theories, it would be excluded from his SPLC profile?

To summarize, no mainstream reliable source that I'm aware of links Lindsay to any antisemitic conspiracy theory or any conspiracy theory about the Frankfurt School. Therefore, linking Lindsay to Frankfurt School conspiracy theory a.k.a. Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory in the lead is a WP:SYNTH and WP:BLP violation that should be immediately deleted. (I’m open to including PARTISAN and RSOPINION sources but only with INTEXT attribution).

The Centre Daily links Lindsay to the groomer conspiracy theory, so we can keep that information for now. However, ideally, that statement should be sourced from mainstream national press, as we have done for all other statements in the lede. XMcan (talk) 15:52, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

We need to slow down on calls for topic-banning XMcan. His behavior here is not disruptive to anything except a long-lasting problem with this article, one that I've raised issue with as well, the conflation of Linsday's critiques of Marxism and its contemporary cultural applications (i.e. "cultural Marxism") with a far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory, Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:31, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
lol no we do not need to "slow down". if the user is unable to edit collegially on the cultural Maxi m Wikipedia page, then they are unable to handle the subject matter anywhere in the project. the problem is the topic not the page. ValarianB (talk) 20:54, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
ValarianB, I haven't looked at what transpired at the Cultural Marxism article, but XMcan's editing here been no less collegial than several other regular participants. The difference is that he holds views on this subject that dissent from the entrenched consensus. Consensus can change. But that's highly unlikely when anyone who challenges the existing consensus is systemically banned. Jweiss11 (talk) 23:09, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
it isn't our fault that most right-leaning editors are generally unable to comport themselves to the expected social norms of the wikipedia. ValarianB (talk) 18:30, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
ValarianB, I don't believe that right-leaning editors, or moderate liberal editors like myself, are less able to comport themselves decently on wikipedia, than left-leaning editors. I believe that we have a biased regime of sanctioning that disproportionately punishes non-leftist editors because of the bias of the administrators, who are themselves disproportionately leftist. 05:18, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
I'm not seeing a ton of disruption, HEB. It's a contentious subject, there's bound to be contentious discussion and sometimes a lot of it. But XMcan, this edit summary is not cool. I really do not want to see you calling an edit you happen to disagree with "vandalism". If you do not understand what WP:VANDALISM is, please do not use the word. Valereee (talk) 11:15, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Since I prompted the question a couple of weeks ago, no mainstream reliable source has emerged linking Lindsay to the Frankfurt School conspiracy theory or any form of antisemitism. We have numerous articles from the mainstream and national press, including The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, The Atlantic, Newsweek, and most recently, the Los Angeles Times [12], ensuring that we are not lacking in quality sources. The UK op-ed source in an oblique way implies links to antisemitism and CMCT, but SPLC's exhaustive and highly critical profile on Lindsay contradicts this on both counts, mentioning no links to antisemitism. BLP and BLPRS are clear what to do with contentious material that is poorly sourced, especially when contradicted by more reliable sources. XMcan (talk) 16:20, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
    This article doesn't contain the word 'antisemitism' or any variation of it, so it is unclear what you are concerned about. MrOllie (talk) 16:27, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
    MrOllie, this article states that "Lindsay has promoted the far-right Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory." Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory is in turn defined as a "far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory" on its article. I'm pretty sure that I've made this point here before, but it's highly inappropriate that we use opinions advanced in Marxist publications like Current Affairs or Jacobin to make derogatory statements of fact in wikivoice about Lindsay. It's unsurprising that such publications would have a slanted view of Lindsay's critiques of Marxism and its applications to contemporary culture. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:16, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
    if those sources are deemed reliable, then that is a enough of a solid basis to label Lindsay as a promoter of cultural marxism conspiracy theories. ValarianB (talk) 18:30, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
    Jweiss11, you've argued that, yes. But the response now (as it was then) is that labeling a source 'Marxist' doesn't somehow cause it to be unreliable. Also, I'm sure you don't mean to say that XMcan's concerns here are related to the contents of some other article that he has been blocked from for disruption. MrOllie (talk) 18:36, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
    The antisemitism accusation is thinly veiled; all it takes is one click. In fact, you don’t even need to click; just mouse over the CMCT link, and the page preview will pop up (you might need to be logged out for this feature). XMcan (talk) 19:15, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
    Yes, I do indeed mean to say the concerns are related to contents of another linked article. Those contents provide a definition for what "Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory" means in this article. It's irrelevant that XMcan is blocked from editing that article. I share the same concerns. Those Marxist sources are certainly a reliable account of what those Marxist sources think about Lindsay. But the use of those opinions to state facts in Wikivoice is inappropriate and a BLP violation. Jweiss11 (talk) 20:14, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
    I agree that the CMCT sentence in the body is also a BLP violation. In essence, what we are doing is taking a talking point from L’s ideological opponents and then amplifying it in Wikivoice, while endorsing the unsupported conclusion that L promotes antisemitism. That's not NPOV, and it's not BLPBALANCE. (Editors, if necessary, please reread WP:BLPBALANCE. It’s only two paragraphs and is a policy, not a guideline). XMcan (talk) 16:38, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
    To clarify, I'm not suggesting that WP:PARTISAN political magazines, such as Jacobin and CA, should be avoided altogether. Instead, I am saying that if we choose to use them, it should be executed in a proper NPOV and BLP manner – namely, through the use of quotations and in-text attribution.
    The LA Times article sets a good example of how to do this in NPOV: the advocacy organization Southern Poverty Law Center describes [Lindsay] as a promoter of ... “conspiracy theories about the supposed communist takeover of the world.”
    I would have no problem presenting the information this way. However, in accordance with BLP policy, particularly WP:BLPBALANCE and WP:BLPRS, we should start with a clean slate first. Afterward, we can discuss whether to reintroduce cites from Jacobin and CA or to use the SPLC quote instead. XMcan (talk) 12:48, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
    Earlier, I was arguing about PARTISAN and RSOPINION angles, presuming that both Jacobin and Current Affairs articles were correctly cited in the first place. However, they were not. Bias issues aside, neither of the two texts explicitly says that Lindsay promotes FSCT/CMCT.
    The Jacobin article doesn’t link Lindsay to any conspiracy theories. In fact, the phrase conspiracy theory/theories appears in the article only twice in a completely different context than the cited sentence. Who added this citation, and why wasn’t it vetted before? (－‸ლ)
    The CA article doesn’t contain the word promote, nor the phrase Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory. I even checked all occurrences of the phrases cultural Marxism and conspiracy theory/theories. There is a sentence with conspiracy theories about "Cultural Marxism", but it’s discussing CMCT in a theoretical context and without referencing any person individually. Using the CA article as a citation for L promotes CMCT is a clear example of WP:SYNTH because the source never explicitly links Lindsay to FSCT/CMCT.
    @ValarianB, MrOllie: NPOV and bias issues aside, it is evident that both Jacobin and CA sources are incorrectly cited. XMcan (talk) 13:58, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
    There is a sentence with conspiracy theories about "Cultural Marxism", You're drawing a distinction without a difference. As to Jacobin, they write James Lindsay accuses critical race theory of being a “sweeping set of conspiracy theories about race and racial power in Western liberal democracies” that is descended from a long line of “Marxist conspiracy theories about the upper class of society.” (among other quotes, you must read the whole piece) We summarize reliable sources, articles are not stitched together from copy and pasted quotations. MrOllie (talk) 14:04, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
    To jump from a sentence that quotes someone saying something is a conspiracy theory, to concluding that this implies the person is promoting a different conspiracy theory, and then to assign a specific name to that conspiracy theory constitutes a 3-step WP:SYNTH.
    Here’s some pertinent quotes from WP:OR (emphasis mine):
    • do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source
    • Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context, or to reach or imply a conclusion not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research.
    • each statement in the article being verifiable in a source that makes that statement explicitly
    XMcan (talk) 15:08, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
    If I cite a source that says "the sky is azure", I can still write "the sky is blue". You are drawing distinctions without difference. MrOllie (talk) 15:12, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
    Sure, if a source says "X espouses Frankfurt School conspiracy theory," we could write "X promotes Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory." But earlier, you were not simply rephrasing or using another name; you were daisy-chaining implications to draw a conclusion not directly and explicitly stated in the source. That’s WP:SYNTH. XMcan (talk) 15:56, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
    someone who is banned from editing <article about subject> should also be banned from raising <subject> at other articles. this is getting disruptive. ValarianB (talk) 14:42, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
  • I added an additional source, but ultimately the language in the article is all reasonable paraphrases of what those sources say. We aren't required to (and in fact aren't allowed to, for WP:COPYVIO reasons) take text directly from a source; but Current Affairs unambiguously presents Lindsay as promoting the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory. --Aquillion (talk) 15:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
Aquillion, which part or parts of Moira Weigel, 2023 support "Lindsay has promoted the far-right Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory".? Jweiss11 (talk) 17:29, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
ValarianB, XMcan is not being descriptive here. What are you doing here is threatening to use a technicality to silence dissent, dissent that is shining a light on an obvious BLP violation. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:29, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
A substring search for “conspiracy theor” (matching theories, theorist, theory) yields a total of 5 matches within the article body. None of them are found in the same paragraph where Lindsay is mentioned. XMcan (talk) 20:44, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
You do have to read the whole paper, which does clearly support the sentence in question. Skimming and 'a substring search' are not sufficient. For instance: The books on CRT that I analyzed exhibit multiple traits of conspiracy theory., and then At the same time, by “proving” that cultural Marxism “spawned” CRT, these authors connect CRT to a well-established image of the enemy. [...] including the conspiracy theory that Marxism is a plot by Jewish cosmopolitans to convince non-Whites to overthrow White civilization., etc., etc. MrOllie (talk) 21:32, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
I understand there's a way to interpret that chain of quotes as referring to Lindsay. However, unless he is explicitly mentioned by the source, it becomes an inference and therefore violates WP:SYNTH. Please adhere to the policy which states: do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. XMcan (talk) 21:52, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
This is clearly not a SYNTH problem, and the source does explicitly state the conclusion. Remember, we are required to summarize and paraphrase. MrOllie (talk) 21:58, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
The entire paper is focused on examining what it says books that exhibit multiple traits of conspiracy theory; its conclusion is clear that part of those is the conspiracy theory that Marxism is a plot by Jewish cosmopolitans to convince non-Whites to overthrow White civilization. Likewise, the description of how and why these authors are focused on in that paper makes it clear they are ones who are promoting the conspiracy theory in question. It's a paraphrase of what the article, as a whole, plainly says. Also, I'm baffled that you removed this particular source, and no other, as well as an in-text attributed citation to the SPLC; those are the best sources we have - it is well-established that the SPLC can be cited with attribution and is often WP:DUE; that doesn't mean we must cite it, but it is certainly not a clear-cut BLP violation to do so, nor is it synthesis given that all the cited sources for that aspect are discussing the conspiracy theory in direct relation to Lindsay in order to establish why it matters. If you believe tweaks to the wording would better-summarize the sources, go ahead, but this is well-cited and summarizes the given sources to the point where it's not in the realm of a clear WP:BLP violation. If you disagree you can take it to WP:BLPN or even WP:AE if you think people have been violating policy by reverting you (though a rough nose-count of this discussion shows a rough consensus to include anyway, in my opinion), but otherwise, it'd make more sense to suggest alternative summaries rather than remove one of our better sources entirely or just repeatedly insist that you disagree on how to summarize it without suggesting any alternatives. --Aquillion (talk) 05:26, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
Aquillion, the text you added is WP:UNDUE. This article is about Lindsay. Attempting to reframe and redefine what CMCT is doesn’t belong here. Also, using antisemitism and Nazi references is a clear example of guilt by association (WP:BLPBALANCE). You are welcome to cite the Weigel source for statements it explicitly makes, but it does not explicitly state that Lindsay promotes CMCT. Without consensus, any further attempts to reinsert the cite and the text is a WP:BLPUNDEL violation. Of course, even without consensus, you and MrOllie are free to pursue this matter via appropriate noticeboards. Although I would suggest seeking a compromise, for example, using a SPLC quote and attributing it as the LA Times [13] does. XMcan (talk) 08:40, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
That Lindsay and the other authors studies in the paper promote the Cultural Marxism Conspiracy Theory is the main topic of the Weigel source. This is plainly a relevant source and attempts to improperly apply BLP like this are highly disruptive. A peer-reviewed source like this one is exactly what we are all supposed to be looking for and adding to the article. MrOllie (talk) 13:20, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
What do the subjects of the articles about Lindsey say on the subject? One of the big problems with how CMCT is covered with respect to antisemitism is there seems to be a common use that doesn't include the anti-Semitic aspect. This was something I found when I last posted here [14]. Previously I found that the Heritage Foundation has a definition of CM that doesn't include the antiemetic aspects. If nothing else that would mean that someone who adopts that version of the idea many not be using it with all these other negative connotations. I also found that the Antisemitism Policy Trust notes, "It is often used, without antisemitic intention, to describe liberals, progressive movements and others." For this reason we need to be careful in creating a guilt by association implication if that isn't clearly in the sources tying a BLP to a concept. BTW, even when using a peer reviewed source, if we are using such a source for a narrow, specific claim we really should look to see if they provide ample justification for such a claim. Especially since this is a BLP in a contentious topic area. XMacn, rather than reverting editors, I would suggest creating a RfC on this material. The problem with reverting is, even if you are correct, when enough editors decide they don't like what you are doing it may end up in you getting sanctioned. Springee (talk) 14:15, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
One positive aspect about Aquillion is their effort in discovering new sources that could potentially enhance the quality of this article. I hope other editors would adopt this approach instead of defending poorly sourced text and arguing against the core WP policies. Here are some pertinent quotes from WP:BLP:
  • Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources.
  • The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores the material.
  • To ensure that material about living people is written neutrally to a high standard, and based on high-quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material.
  • Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.
  • Do not label people with contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision, unless a person is commonly described that way in reliable sources.
Emphasis mine. XMcan (talk) 21:58, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
WP:CRYBLP is also good reading. MrOllie (talk) 21:59, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
Policy > guideline > essay!? XMcan (talk) 22:04, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Just by a quick nose-count, there's a consensus here to restore the deleted material (two-to-one in favor of restoration.) Both Weigel and Current Affairs refer to Lindsay as pushing the conspiracy theory of Cultural Marxism, in a context in which they are unambiguously framing it as a conspiracy theory and clearly intended for that to apply to Lindsay. I understand that you personally don't read it that way because their explanation is spread over multiple paragraphs, but WP:SATISFY applies here; in the face of so many editors who clearly read these sources as supporting the text, you cannot simply repeat that you don't see it over and over. If you think more people might see things your way you could always raise the issue on WP:BLPN or WP:NPOVN, but otherwise there's not much left to discuss; to me, the source I added clearly ends this discussion and answers all reasonable objections. --Aquillion (talk) 00:48, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
Aquillion, I oppose restoration, so we don't have a two-to-one "consensus". Sounds more like 2-2 to me. Current Affairs is itself a Marxist publication, so it's no surprise it would vilify a critic of Marxism and culturally-applied Marxism. Using a Current Affairs opinion to state a fact in Wikivoice here is a clear BLP vio. Please provide the passages where Weigel states that Lindsay has pushed the "conspiracy theory of Cultural Marxism". Jweiss11 (talk) 05:25, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
I think that you have overlooked Viriditas and ValarianB, who weighed in above; if you think it's ambiguous whether they support this particular iteration of the text, we can always ping them and anyone else who weighed in here, but it seems obvious to me that the overall consensus leans towards inclusion in some form. Likewise, as I explained above, Weigel clearly discusses Cultural Marxism in the context of it being a conspiracy theory, and plainly discusses Lindsay in the context of people who promoted it. Parsing that down to the sentence we have is not synthesis, it is paraphrasing. (Also, as I pointed out, the main thrust of your most recent edit was removing the part of the definition of Cultural Marxism that we attribute to the SPLC and to remove Weigel entirely as a source, neither of which make much sense as BLP concerns. If you object to using Jacobin or Current Affairs unattributed as a source, why did you remove the other sources instead?) --Aquillion (talk) 05:41, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
I made that reversion because with I think the way Weigel is being used is tenuous and synthy. The problem is layered in many, many edits. That Linsday's critique of cultural Marxism is an antisemitic conspiracy theory is the opinion of various Marxists (who have a political incentive to delegitimize such criticism) and activists orgs like the SPLC with a history of defaming people like Lindsay. That we are using these opinions to state facts in WikiVoice remains a blatant BLP violation. Jweiss11 (talk) 06:47, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
Editors watching this talk page will find this ANI thread relevant. MrOllie (talk) 22:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
This is a courtesy ping, so please feel free to ignore it. I'm reaching out to ALL editors who participated in the preceding Antisemitism Insinuation discussion. Currently, there is an attempt to reintroduce content [15][16][17] that was previously discussed and removed by consensus.[18] I'm reaching out to Loksmythe, Springee, Hob Gadling, and skipping those already participating in the ongoing discussion. XMcan (talk) 13:25, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
Would you mind summarizing what is the issue at hand. This does appear somewhat similar to the previous discussion I participated in. As a general rule I think we should be careful about giving too much weight to biased sources when they are providing a contentious description of a BLP. That said, in skimming the discussion I'm not sure what is the specific material in contention. Would it be better to simply agree on a RfC then let others join in to decide? Springee (talk) 18:38, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
There are many problems, Springee, but let’s focus on the most glaring one, which is also the easiest to explain. If you take a look at this diff, Aquillion is attempting to insert into this BLP a new alternative mini-definition of what CMCT is (independent of the actual definition in the CMCT article). Moreover, they tag on another sentence that creates a false impression that Lindsay is antisemitic, something that no RS claims, including L’s SPLC profile. Just to spice it up, they've added a mention of Nazis, presumably to link Lindsay to them as well. I strongly oppose this on WP:BLP and WP:DUE grounds. Jweiss11 and I have each deleted this content once, while Aquillion and MrOllie have (re)added it 3 times, so twice against WP:BLPUNDEL and without consensus. XMcan (talk) 20:27, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
  • As a consensus on the Weigle cite is yet to be ascertained [19], I support this Pgayed's edit [20], which emphasizes the misuse of the phrase known for. Lindsay is known for the grievance studies affair, which garnered widespread national and international press coverage. There are no mainstream news sources linking him to FSCT. Therefore, asserting in wikivoice that he is known for promoting something that is “a far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory” appears UNDUE and not BLPBALANCED, as it equates mainstream press (NYT, WSJ, WaPo, The Atlantic) with less reputable sources. XMcan (talk) 09:19, 24 February 2024 (UTC)‎
    Easily fixed, we can simply change 'He is also known for promoting' to 'He has promoted' - MrOllie (talk) 23:04, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
    That would be an improvement to which I wouldn't object. XMcan (talk) 23:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
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