Talk:Jalal al-Din Mangburni/GA1

GA Review edit

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Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 10:14, 18 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

I try to complete the GAR during the weekend. After the first reading, my impression is that the article is very near to meet all GA criteria, but the first paragraph of the "Name and early life" section is completely unclear for me. Borsoka (talk) 10:14, 18 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Name and early life edit

He is mentioned both as Jalal al-Din and as al-Din in the article. I think one of the two variants should be used consequently.
I understand that he had a Turkic personal name but what about the "Jalal al-Din" part? Perhaps, an introduction is needed before the etymology of one part of his name is explained.
I understand that his Turkic name had several variants in Persian sources, the several variants have different etimologies although it is unclear whether Persian or Turkic.
The variants "Menguberti" and "Mingirini" are not mentioned in the lead although the main text describes the first one as the actual variant, and the second one as one of the most common variants of the name.
The variants "Minkubirni" and "Mengu-Berdi", mentioned in the lead, are not mentioned in the main text.
His name "Menguberti" means God-given in Turkic languages. Is this a fact or a scholarly PoV? I understand alternative explanations exist.
His name "Menguberti"... I understand that the form "Manguburti" is recorded in Persian sources, so I assume that "Menguberti" is a modern variant, or a variant from a specific Turkic language other than the one recorded by the primary sources.
...in Turkic languages I assume only in some of the Turkic languages. Could you name some of them?
"Mengu" means Eternal and is used for God. Berti is the old form of "verdi" gave. Is this necessary? If yes, it could be mentioned in a footnote.
Even though his Turkic personal name was recorded as Manguburti in older Persian sources, the spelling of the name changed over time in Persian sources and several Persian meanings were affiliated with the name. Spelling and meaning of his name in Persian sources are obscure. I think the sequence of the two sentences should be changed.
...several Persian meanings were affiliated with the name Examples (at least in a footnote)?
..."with a birthmark on the nose"..."valiant fighter worth one thousand men" Turkic? (A previous sentence refers to Persian meanings.)
...cf. Persian hazarmard Why should I compare the two terms?
...was reportedly the eldest son... Do we need the adverb "reportedly"? If yes, name the primary source of the statement.
Turkmen or Turkoman/Turcoman? Is not Turkmen anachronistic in the article's context?
A wikilink to "concubine"? Concubine or slave concubine? (A following sentence refers to her low-status. A concubine may be of high-status.)
...his powerful grandmother and Qipchaq princess... And or the?
...whose mother was also a Qipchaq Her mother-in-law supported her son because of her ethnicity or of her higher social status? (A previous sentence states mentions the low social status of Jalal al-Din's mother as the reason of his grandmother's aversion to him.)
...his empire... Consider naming the empire and linking it.

Mongol invasion and accession edit

I think a short background about the Mongol Empire is needed to introduce the Mongol invasion.
Introduce Ghenghis Khan.
Genghis Khan had chosen to ignore a skirmish ... Why past perfect?
Genghis Khan had chosen to ignore a skirmish between the Mongol general Jochi and the Shah, in which Jalal al-Din's military acumen had saved the Shah from a humiliating defeat. As the article is dedicated to Jalal al-Din, the circumstances of his victory (?) should be narrated before Genghis Khan's decision is mentioned.
...he could not ignore the seizure of a trade caravan... He obviously could have ignored it. Alternatively, if he indeed could not ignore it, some explanation is needed.
Introduce Otrar and Gurgenj.
War between the two new neighbours was inevitable. A war can always be avoided.
Terken Khatun is already linked in the previous section.
In addition, his mother Terken Khatun still wielded substantial power in the realm – one historian termed the relationship between the Shah and his mother as 'an uneasy diarchy', which often acted to Muhammad's disadvantage. Her preeminent position should be mentioned in the previous section with some explanation. In this section, some more specific detail should be mentioned (her influence over part of the army?)
The Shah also distrusted most of his commanders... Why?
..., as many of his commanders wished... Do we know why they proposed an open battle?
..., let alone quality... Is this for sure? The Mongols destroyed all powers between the Danube and the Pacific Ocean.
However,... Delete.
Otrar is already linked in the previous section.
Gurganj is already linked in the first paragraph.
The city's nobility, like Terken Khatun,... Can the Khan's mother be mentioned as member of urban nobility?
...were not prepared to accept Jalal ad-Din as Shah.. Were not prepared to accept or had not accepted him?
Uzlagh or Uzlaq?
Introduce Timur Malik.
Why not Karakum Desert?
Is Nesa a town or a fortress?
Link Herat and Ghazni.
...lost the trail... Did he? Jalal al-Din was accompanied by tens of thousands of people.
Timur Malik or Temur Malik. He should be mentioned as Jalal al-Din's maternal uncle when he is first mentioned. I understand he had joined Jalal al-Din at Gurganj.
Gurganj, Merv and Nishapur are already linked.
...the Muslims... The Muslims or Khwarazmians?
Introduce Kushteghin Pahlawan.
Herat is mentioned (and not linked) in a previous section.
...that fortress... Name it or introduce Bamiyan as a fortress.
... to prevent the disparate Khwarazmid factions from uniting, one of whom al-Din managed to isolate and defeat. Unclear. What are the factions, which was defeated by Jalal al-Din and when?
...attempts to win back Ighrak and his men... Only a dispute over booty is mentioned in a previous sentence. Did Ighrak abandon Jalal al-Din's camp?
...is said to have drawn the admiration of Genghis Khan Who said this?
Delete however.

Indian subcontinent edit

After the battle of Indus, Jalal al-Din crossed the Indus... His cross of the river is mentioned in the previous sentence.
A local prince... Could you name him? If not, mention that his name is unknown.
...Jalal al-Din's makeshift forces... Some more information about them? Did they consist of soldiers who had also managed to cross the Indus, or did he hire local troops?
...enhancing his Indian appeal... Enhancing or establishing?
Introduce Iltutmish.
...al-Din's poor relationship with the Abbasid caliphs... Previous sections do not refer to this. Could the adjective "poor" be replaced? (This request may indicate the limits of my English but it is ambiguous for me.)
Introduce Dorben Doqshin.
Explain the term tumens with two or three words.
...one account... Could you name the source? What other sources say?
...who was so infuriated Doqshin was sent out at once... Ungrammatical?
...local princes... Could you be more specific? (Northeastern/Central Indian princes)
... the Mongol army took Nandana from one of the lieutenants of Jalal ad-Din, sacked it, then proceeded to besiege the larger Multan 1. Previous sentences do not refer to the conquest of the two places by Jalal al-Din. 2. Why Jalal ad-Din?
...managed to breach... Perhaps "broke"?
Introduce Peter Jackson.

Persian and Georgia edit

Khwarazm kingdom?
Link Hamadan and Isfahan.
...were allegedly put to death... Why is the adverb used?
Burak Hadjib is introduced as the ruler of Kerman in a previous sentence, but his daughter's marriage to Jalal al-Din is not mentioned.
...but after al-Din marched against him he was subdued... Perhaps "but al-Din quickly subdued him"?
Introduce Chormagan and Taymas Noyan.
...against Ahlat again Again?
Introduce Kayqubad as the Sultan of Rum.

Death edit

Through the ruler of Alamut, the Mongols learned that Jalal ad-Din had recently been defeated; the Nizari Ismaili Assassins sent a letter to Ögedei Khan, proposing joint operation against Jalal al-Din. Unclear. The ruler of Alamut, as far as I know, was the head of the Assassins. Who is Ögödei Khan? Perhaps: "The head of the Nizari Ismaili Assassins sent a letter from his Alamut headquarter to Ögedei Khan, the new Mongol ruler of Central Asia/former Khwarazmian territories, informing him of Jalal al-Din's defeat and proposing joint operation against him." Why ad-Din?
Ahlat is linked in the previous section.
Jalal al-Din's kingdom ... Kingdom?
...the governor of Mosul. I assume he was the Mongol governor of the city.
I think a reference to the sack of Jerusalem by the Khwarazmians in 1244 is inevitable in the article's context.

Legacy and assessment edit

His biographer... Perhaps "His 13th-century/first biographer..."?
Introduce Juzjani, Yaqut al-Hamawi. When primary sources are cited, a reference to reliable sources is also needed as per WP:SOURCE.
Jalal al-Din is commonly depicted on artwork resembling that of the Persian epic Shahnameh, where he is associated with the mythological warrior Rostam. Unclear. Is he depicted as Rostam?
...is considered... has been attributed to By whom?
Introduce Vasily Bartold.
Vasily Bartold believed... Believed?
I think Juvayni's PoV should be mentioned in the paragraph where other medieval historians' PoVs are listed.

Cultural influence edit

The short section should be expanded or merged into the previous section.

Please find my comments above. After my comments are addressed, I will review the lead and the pictures. Thank you for this interesting article. Borsoka (talk) 05:11, 19 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hi Borsoka; apologies, I rewrote this a while back and it looks like it's a) declined it quality since and b) isn't up to my current standards. I'd like to withdraw this GAN and rewrite the article again. Sorry for the inconvenience. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:44, 19 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

OK. I have to accept you decision. Borsoka (talk) 00:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

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