Talk:Jadwiga of Poland/Archive 1

Archive 1

Old talk

Jadwiga was king of Poland, not queen :) I know this is surprising, but she was crowned as _king_ :) -- I made the name Jadwiga throughout the article. Switching back and forth is confusing. There are other St. Hedwigs, but I don't think there are any other St. Jadwigas. There may be, though. --MichaelTinkler

I know, but then we should list her as St Hedwig of Hungary also, seperate or whatever. user:H.J.

In fact it's spelled "Hedvig" in Hungarian... these differences in spelling can crack one up so I think we should just call her Jadwiga. As for her being king, what about calling her "ruling queen" or "queen (on her own right)"? Alensha 00:04, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

---

Explanation of king vs. queen issue added. --Taw

---

To MichaelTinkler This St.Hedwig (Jadwiga)is also Saint Hedwig of Hungary. Nowhere is she listed as St Jadwiga. Here is a website showing St Hedwig www.katolikus.hu/hun-saints/index.html Please look into that. Thanks user:H.J.

Please, HJ, look into 'google.com'. Enter 'saint jadwiga'. Hit return. --MichaelTinkler

---

All full of Polish language or American Polish Nobility Societies and a portrait of Saint Jadwiga spelled : Hedwigis. user:H.J.

Oh, good! You're beginning to use sources carefully rather than just typing. Yes, Poles call her Jadwiga. I'm willing to bet that the Catholic Church in Poland calls her Jadwiga, too. --MichaelTinkler

---

MT Of course they do and rightly so ,in Poland. But it is beginning to look like this supposedly English language wikipedia is becoming a Polish wikipedia. And of course political correctness will have us pronounce :Hedwigis as Jatwiga. Incidently one of my names is Hedwig from my Silesian grandmother. I suppose I should pronounce it Jatwiga. But then again I believe Jadwiga is rather Lithuanian ? user:H.J.

Well, isn't Hedwig a German name first of all ? Lysy 19:52, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

---

How is she named in traditional English history? (Yes, we call her Jadwiga, since she was queen of Poland, had much Polish blood in veins, and that's how was she called when she lived in Poland)szopen

I think that she is Hedwig in English. I think Michael's right and we need to differentiate, so how about either Jadwiga (which is better for Jadwiga the queen -- or we can call her Hedwig of Poland. JHK

I have nothing against Polish names and I don't find any difficulty in pronouncing or spelling Jadwiga, but if we have articles for Zoroaster and Pope John Paul II even though these are obviously the anglicized versions of the original Avestan Zarathustra and Latin Ioannes Paulus II, shouldn't we keep all names in Wikipedia in their anglicized versions for simplicity's sake? If we don't we'll soon be dealing with Motecuzoma (Montezuma) and Salah al-Din (Saladin).Bernalj90 (talk) 01:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

We use anglicized names when those are the better-known names among English speakers. WP:COMMONNAME. Anglicization is, with the notable exception of Popes, far less common now than it used to be. So the anglicized name will be the most correct one to use for historical figures that have long been famous in the English-speaking world, but ones who were more obscure will usually not be anglicized. Jadwiga is famous in Europe, but not so much in the Anglosphere. 75.76.213.106 (talk) 23:54, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I am not native speaker, but shouldn't that read "without evidence of any disability?" And again, she was crowned as _king_ (krol) not _queen_ (krolowa) szopen

I am an English-language-only Polka (FYI, the biggest concentration of Poles outside of Poland is that of the United States, where we speak English. - Don't assume this page is just for non-Poles just because it's in English.), and I would ask that only the legitimate names of my people's historical figures, modern day famous persons, places, etc. be used. I have no interest in being taught my own heritage wrong, nor in seeing non-Poles learn it wrong. I am required to learn British history correct, but British descendants think they can teach "alternative" versions of other people's history? Talk about a racist double-standard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.98.51.63 (talk) 18:10, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

The other St. Jadwiga (Hedwig)

There is another St. Jadwiga (Hedwig). She lived c.1174-1243 and was the daughter of Count Berthold IV of Andechs, Bavaria. She was married to Duke Henry of Silesia at the age of 12. The two of them founded numerous monasteries and hospitals. She acted as peacemaker when two of her sons went to war over territorial claims. When her husband died she entered one of the Cistercian monasteries she had founded. She died on October 15, 1243, and was canonized in 1267. She is the patron saint of Silesia.

Move

I moved Jadwiga to Hedwig for consistency: all other Polish monarchs are under their English names. Besides Queen Hedwig outgoogles Queen Jadwiga. -- Kpalion 17:44, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It only outgoogles it because there were multiple Queen Hedwigs. A quick once-over of unreliable google results is not the kind of "valid sources" Wikipedia cares about.

Queen regnant Jadwiga

I'm about to replace the occurences of Hedwig throughout the article with Jadwiga. This is how she called herself and there is no reason for using her name in German language in English wikipedia.

Lysy 11:00, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There's no reason for using her name in German, some reason for using her name in Polish, but wikipedia policy is to use her name in English, which seems to be Hedwig. Eugene van der Pijll 11:11, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, is Hedwig English indeed ? No doubt about it being a German name. But does it have any etymology in English ? Besides, do you really think that translating people's names into another language is a good idea ? Should Jacques Chirac be renamed James in English wikipedia and Jakob in German ? :-) Lysy 13:13, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it has an English etymology: it is copied from the German name. Whether translating names is a good idea, is beside the point. Whether it is commonly done for a certain individual, is the only thing that is important here on wikipedia. Eugene (Note: that is not my original name; it's the English translation) 13:20, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK, then let's agree that English usage is the key then. "queen Hedwig of Poland" has 23 google hits, while "queen Jadwiga of Poland" has 762 google hits. Does this convince you ? Lysy 14:26, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not really. "queen jadwiga" has 660 hits (very strange, as it should include all 762 hits for "queen jadwiga of poland); "queen hedwig" has 679, but not all about this Hedwig. However, "saint hedwig" has 853 hits, against 366 for "saint jadwiga". So I'm undecided, really. For consistency with the page title, I'd go with Hedwig here; and for consistency with the other Polish kings I would not move the article. But the two names seem to be about equally common. Eugene van der Pijll 15:12, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, your results are easy to explain. There was another person called "Saint Hedwig", she was German, born in Bavaria. So searching for "Saint Hedwig" does not give any meaningful indication as to the usage in English regarding the Polish queen. As for "queen Jadwiga", there's something strange with google, because I'm getting 996 hits on this search (in advanced mode), while only 696 for "queen hedwig" (and this one again including a number of other Hedwigs). I'm far from assuming that google has the ultimate wisdom, but the results for the very person we are discussing here were clearly in favour for "Jadwiga", by quite significant factor of 762:23 = over 33 times. As I tried to explain, your example searches seem misleading, because the results are hard to interpret (as they catch other persons as well). Similarly, I have no doubt that search for James would give more hits than for Jacques, but this does not imply that Jacques Chirac should get translated to James. However, you'd need to search for "Jacques Chirac" to find it. Having "Hedwig" instead of "Jadwiga" here seems unnecesarily confusing (as our discussion proves). Lysy 18:41, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, actually I lied: check the link. My search for "saint Hedwig" included the search term "poland", and excluded "andechs", so they are mostly links to the correct person. If you search for "saint hedwig" only, you get 35000 hits, mainly to towns in the U.S. which are named for one of the two Hedwigs, possibly proving that Hedwig was their usual name in English. But I don't know which of the two it refers to. Eugene van der Pijll 21:07, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Still, adding "Poland" to the query does not do the trick, as the other Hedwig apart of being a saint, also bore the title of Duchess of Poland :-) Check the results for yourself ... She was just canonized much, much earlier, hence more sources referring to her than to our Jadwiga in question here. Lysy 21:24, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Unless there're any more arguments against it, I'll move/rename the article and its contents to Jadwiga in order to avoid further confusion. Lysy 07:36, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

We should use English names for monarchs, that's a general standard. The English version of our queen's name happens to be Hedwig. It's the same as the German version? So what? English is also a Germanic language, no surprise it's got more in common with German than with Polish. We're not going to replace Chritopher Columbus with Cristobal Colon, and we shouldn't replace Hediwg with Jadwiga either. – Kpalion (talk) 17:21, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not all the names of the monarchs have commonly used English translations. Blindly following the rule of translating each name into English causes confusion (like here with the two Hedwigs) and make the monarchs unrecognizable. The rule should be to follow the current prevailing usage in English instead of forcing new ideas. As explained above, google shows that the largely prevailing English usage for this monarch (queen Jadwiga of Poland) is "Jadwiga", while the prevailing usage for Hedwig of Andechs is "Hedwig". These should not be confused. Lysy 18:28, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If there are no more arguments in favour of "Hedwig", I'm going to move the article to "Jadwiga of Poland". In googlewar "Jadwiga of Poland" wins against "Hedwig of Poland" by a factor of 10. Lysy 05:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

All right, renamed. Lysy 07:28, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I support name change. Google argument is important on Wiki, and I have never heard of 'Hedwig'. Besides, in 95% cases the articles were [[Hedwig|Jadwiga]] anyway. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:33, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How can Wikipedia have a policy of using English names for people who do not have English names? Neither name is English. She is not English. There is no English name to be used. And, if Wikipedia factually has such a racist policy I will boycott Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.98.51.63 (talk) 18:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC) As for the utterly immature and off-topic bout that went down about google search results... 1. Random Google search results never has been, and never will be a valid source of reliable information. 2. The Google search engine gives each user custom results, depending on their result clicking history. That makes arguments about Google search results invalid even if it weren't off-topic. But, seeing as it was off-topic and illigitimate sourcing, it does nothing but cause one to question the validity of edits and things done on Wikipedia by the people who were guilty of such ar argument. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.98.51.63 (talk) 18:39, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Santa Jadwiga

It appears that Mareczek9 just moved Jadwiga of Poland to Santa Jadwiga. Google returns a mere 14 pages for the search "santa jadwiga", none of which is in English. Moreover, in English the word Santa is used when referring to only one saint -- Saint Nicholas, as Santa Claus. I strongly recommend that this unilateral change be reversed. pmj 01:06, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree, and moved it back. There is a proposal to change all names of Polish monarchs on Talk:List of Polish monarchs, and I don't object to a renaming of this page, but "Santa Jadwiga" is clearly not the right name. Eugene van der Pijll 10:06, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

events in Hungary in Jadwiga's lifetime dealing with her own family

This os Jadwiga's personal biography article, basically. It is not restricted to events in Poland. (And, also events in Poland are impacted by events elsewhere). I feel that at least for Jadwiga's personal bio, it is rather important to explain happenings in nearby Hungary, particularly those happenings which deal with members of Jadwiga's blood family, or the potential inheritance Jadwiga could have had in Hungary etc. For example, there presumably was some feelings in 1395-99 (in Poland) to assert her rights after the death of her childless sister. Succession rights were important in those times. For these reasons, I believe the removals made by Choess 3.6.2005 are inappropriate and those edits should be be reverted. 62.78.105.49 06:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

With all due respect, the parts I removed were an exact duplicate of the text you put in the article on Mary of Hungary, which is linked in this article. If you have documentary evidence that Jadwiga and Jogaila advanced a claim on Hungary, then add something about that; but I don't think it's appropriate to add lots of text on non-existent succession claims, whatever their hereditary strength, and duplicating the same paragraph across multiple articles defeats the entire point of hyperlinks in a wiki. Choess 06:52, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm somewhat perturbed on one point in 'legends and veneration' where it states that her carrying food in her apron would have incurred a death sentence...was she not a queen (or king) for that matter? Who would have carried out a death sentence on an anointed monarch in that day and time? It makes no sense whatsoever!Babyboy160 (talk) 03:27, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Queen vs King

Because the problem is only with Polish contributors, I will write in Polish.

Chciałbym zaprotestować przeciwko używaniu sformułowania King Hedwig, King Jadwiga itp. w angielskiej WP i zachęcić do pisania Queen Hedwig. Motywy są następujące:

1. Polska końcówka -owa oznacza żonę, a więc królowa to żona króla. Jednakże angielskie słowo queen może znaczyć zarówno żonę króla (queen consort), jak i króla-kobietę (queen regnant). Dlatego w języku angielskim nie ma przeszkód, by o Jadwidze pisać Queen Hedwig.
2. King Hedwig, a tym bardziej King Jadwiga, może być bardzo mylące, zwłaszcza dla kogoś, kto nie wie, że to żeńskie imę i może pomyśleć, iż chodzi o mężczyznę.
3. Nawet w polszczyźnie bardzo rzadko można się spotkać z formą król Jadwiga. Wszyscy na codzień mówią i piszą o niej królowa Jadwiga, nawet jeśli wiedzą, że jej oficjalny tytuł brzmiał "król".
4. Informacja o męskim tytule Jadwigi ma jednak raczej ciekawostkowy charakter i w zupełności wystarczy jedno zdanie na ten temat w artykule jej poświęconym. Nie ma najmniejszej potrzeby, by upychać to wszędzie w WP, gdzie pojawia się wzmianka na jej temat.

– Kpalion (talk) 15:45, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

1. Tak jak sowa to żona sowa, a pomidorowa to żona pomidora. A tak na serio: w europejskiej tradycji prawnej tylko w niewielu krajach przyjęło się przyzwolenie na dziedziczenie tytułu monarszego przez kobiety - stąd termin queen może być rozumiany dwojako. Z terminem king nie ma tego problemu, bo matriarchat się na naszym kontynencie nie przyjął. Oczywiście można przyjąć pisownię z queen, ale gwoli ścisłości należałoby dookreślić o jaki typ queen chodzi. Jeśli zgodzimy się na pisownię Jadwiga, queen regnant of Poland lub coś podobnego - jestem za. Samo queen of Poland jednak mi nie pasuje.
2. Racja, to jest chyba najlepszy argument za dookreśleniem. Inaczej albo komuś nieobznajomionemu ze słowiańszczyzną umknie płeć Jadwigi, albo też jej ranga.
3. Po to się sprawdza w encyklopedii, by znaleźć wiedzę dokładną, a nie potoczną. Potocznie Polskę określa się mianem Trzeciej Rzeczypospolitej - co nie znaczy że jest to termin obowiązujący oficjalnie. Podobnie jest też z powszechnymi błędami gramatycznymi - wszyscy wymawiają nazwisko Piłsudskiego jako Piłsucki, co nie znaczy że mamy zacząć tak pisać.
4. Dla mnie jest to informacja pierwszorzędnej wagi. Ciekawostką jest to, że była to jedyna władczyni w naszej historii, ale już to że polskim władcą była kobieta - niekoniecznie (nie wiem czy dość jasno się wyraziłem, mam nadzieję że zrozumiesz).

Reasumując: queen Jadwiga nie, king Jadwiga tak, queen regnant Jadwiga - w ostateczności. Co Ty na to? Halibutt 18:03, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

Queen regnant Jadwiga Lysy 19:36, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Oficjalny tytuł Jadwigi brzmiał Hedvig Rex Poloniæ, a więc "król", "king", a nie różnego typu pod- i nad- królowa, i tego się trzymajmy. A że w Anglii mieli "Queen regnant" to już ich problem i folklor. Przypominam także, że Jadwiga nie była jedyną władczynią, KRÓLEM Polski była też Anna Jagiellonka.

Zapraszam też do rzucenia okiem na dyskusje w niemieckiej Wikipedii Diskussion:Hedwig_I._(Polen) po angielsku :) Merewyn 12:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

• Extremely Strong Oppose This was written in Polish to Skew Debate and Confuse English Editors of English Wikipedia. -- Sleyece (talk) 11:25, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Jegellonian university origin

Well.. Just one thing. Jadvyga's husband Jogaila (aka Jagello) was... ? Seems to me - the KING OF RZECHPOSTPOLITA (aka Lithuanian-Polish commonwealth). Therefore, everything named JEGELLON, Jegellonian, etc actualy atributes to JOGAILA - King of Poland and Grand duke of Lithuania.

University in Cracow was founded in 1364 by the king Casimirus from the Piast dynasty, this university was called Akademia Krakowska. After the death of king Casimirus, Akademia was falling slowly into financial troubles. Jadwiga decided in the testament to give all her jewelery for the support and enlargement of Akademia to university. After Jadwiga death, king Jagiello realised her will (Jadwiga was buried with a wooden crown, the golden one went for university support) - that is why it is called Jagiellonian University, and not Akademia Krakowska anymore. Merewyn 21:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Patron Saint of Queens?

The page said that Jadwiga was "Patron Saint of Queens". I thought at first that this meant that she was the patron saint of the borough of Queens, New York. Then I realized it was probably just a spelling error.

I have changed it to say "Patron Saint of queens". I hope this was correct, and I apologize if not. -- Dominus 22:08, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Ancestors

As this is English wikipedia and most people reading it will be reading left to right (I note the raging battle above) is there any chance that the Ancestors bit could changed so it reads left to right with her early ancestors on the left and her on the right? I'm fairly new to wiki editing and not sure how to do it. --Wozzy25 (talk) 16:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

B-class review

This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 16:08, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

adding her classic English-language biography (1991)

The "Further Reading" list at the end omits the one serviceable biography in English, by far the best introduction most readers of Wikipedia will ever see. Originally written by Oscar Halecki, a famous Polish historian who taught at Fordham and died in 1974, the almost-complete manuscript entitled "Jadwiga of Anjou and the Rise of East Central Europe" was edited and published in 1991 by Halecki's former student, Thaddeus Gromada, under the sponsorship of the Polish Institute of Arts and Sciences of America. It's a bit overblown, but also fairly widely available.

Scandalous NOT to list it! 2old bill (talk) 18:08, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I encourage you to add it. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:35, 4 June 2012 (UTC)