Talk:JSON Meta Application Protocol

who's allowed to contribute?

OK, so I had a quick discussion with a FastMail tech in a ticket, and they say they are not going to contribute to the Wikipedia page for this because that would violate the Wikipedia terms. I disagreed, since this is a page for an open source project, and its success does not really financially benefit FastMail. If no one on the open source team can contribute to this, who will provide the tech specifics?

I read the FAQ for organizations, and I did not see a reason they could not contribute.

Anyway, this discussion has probably been had elsewhere, but I figured I would document it here. I edited this page earlier. I'm just an email user, and FastMail is an email service that I've used for several years. I think they started a nice project here, because I've had many headaches with IMAP in the past.

But this Wikpedia page could use more tech stuff, and people who are not involved with the project are more likely to get that wrong.

Just thought I would mention this.

Dan --100.4.151.25 (talk) 00:56, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

It's generally fine for those closely associated to edit, as long as they abide by the guidelines in Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide. There are a couple of "traps" that need to be avoided - one is pushing a PR line, (or being perceived to be doing so), and the other is relying upon "arguments from authority" because of inside knowledge - facts still need to be backed up with Reliable Sources. I imagine it can be intensely annoying to see others misunderstanding things - but a very bad idea to get grumpy about it. If in doubt, it's always safe to post here on the Talk page, and point other editors in the right direction. - Snori (talk) 01:25, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for that reply. It might be helpful if the Conflict of interest page specifically mentioned this sort of project, because those guidelines are more concerned with profit-driven and agenda-driven topics where even minor changes in wording can add bias. I do agree with what you say here. Dan --100.4.149.195 (talk) 12:49, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I am Joris Baum from audriga. We are not yet actively contributing to JMAP but are currently looking into it. Just to be safe I used the "request edit" and "connected contributor" templates for a minor edit of mine. Do you think that makes sense or is that kind of unnecessary (considering another Wikipedian now needs to spend his/her time reviewing my edit request)? Since the backlog seems quite high, and we might not have a 100% clear COI, could it make sense to edit the article directly after having waited for a while? - jaudriga (talk) 15:52, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Add relation to iCalendar and vCard

I suggest adding the following to the "Development" Section:

• Information to be added: JMAP drafts dealing with contacts and calendars are accompanied by additional IETF drafts around JSCalendar [3] and JSContacts [4]. They are meant to be an alternative and, over time, successor of the file format standards iCalendar and vCard.
• Explanation of issue: Relation to JSCalendar, JSContact as well as iCalendar and vCard was not mentioned/clear before. Putting this on the talk page might be overengineered for this article/change, but I try to follow best practices as stated in [5]. (see also discussion above)
• References supporting change: https://ietf.org/blog/modernizing-email-and-calendars/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jmap-jscontact/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-calext-jscalendar/ and https://jmap.io/spec-calendars.html references JSCalendar.

Jaudriga (talk) 15:52, 17 November 2020 (UTC); edited 16:12, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Thank you for declaring your conflict of interest. I declined the request because the proposed sentence is WP:PROMOTIONAL language that gives too much detail about a product and thus does not belong in this article. If you have any questions, please post below. Happy editing! Z1720 (talk) 17:23, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

OK. That is perfectly fine. Thanks for your quick response! I am actually surprised I got such a fast reply :) . Since I am new to this: Could you maybe give me a hint what I could do better next time? For example, I am not sure which product you are referring to? You may be talking about the JSCalendar/JSContact standards, which could be seen as products of the Internet Engineering Task Force? Also, what are the sources lacking in your opinion? Jaudriga (talk) 08:04, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Jaudriga:, one of the big problems I have with your sentence (and with the whole article) is that the language is too technical. I am rereading your proposed sentence and I still cannot fully understand what you are trying to tell the reader. I would suggest a rewrite of this article so that someone with basic computer knowledge would understand what this product/protocol/thing the article is talking about does. Also, we

For the sources, the datatracker links are not WP:RS because they are WP:PRIMARY sources. Although primary sources are allowed, when describing a product (as I think this protocol is a product) a secondary source should also be provided to show the notability of this information. Does a news article, product review or book talk about this process? This helps support your claim.

We have some WikiProjects with volunteers that have more specialised knowledge than I do: Wikipedia:WikiProject Computing and Wikipedia:WikiProject Internet. If an editor from one of those projects wants to add the above sentence I will not object. They will also help with simplifying the language to make it more understandable to us.

Please post below if you have any questions or concerns. Z1720 (talk) 14:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time and clarifying :) . The best I could find is this blog post from IETF, which talks about JSCalendar + JSContacts at https://ietf.org/blog/modernizing-email-and-calendars . I also rephrased the above a bit. Maybe that makes it a bit clearer? Jaudriga (talk) 15:31, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I still decline to add this information because the IETF was involved in developing this protocol and the author of the blog post is on the JMAP working group that developed. Also, I still think the proposed sentences in the request are too promotional. Although the protocol is supposed to be a replacement for iCalendar and vcard, this has not happened yet and Wikipedia does not predict the future. Adding this as an intention of JSON, without knowing if this actually happens, causes the language to feel promotional. This is like a fast-food company saying, "Our burger is to be an alternative, and over time successor, to the Big Mac." I would not accept that language because it sounds like a company trying to promote their product.

I really encourage you to reach out to the WikiProjects posted above. People with more technical knowledge and experience writing these types of articles on Wikipedia will be able to help you fix the language in your request. Z1720 (talk) 16:23, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your taking the time to explain. These are valid points. It was not my intention that you reevaluate the edit request. I am sorry if that was not clear. I am doing this, because I want to learn about how contributing to Wikipedia works. It also seems that I did not follow Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Editing_own_comments. I am sorry for that. I changed above's comment to comply with that. Thanks for pointing out the projects to me. I will try to reach out. Jaudriga (talk) 16:14, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry about misinterpreting your request for reevaluating. Don't worry about changing the original proposal above, lots of people post a "draft" on the talk page and make changes as people make comments. I see that someone has already started editing the article to simplify the language, and hopefully more editors will come along to help make the language more understandable. Happy editing, and please post below if you have other questions. Z1720 (talk) 16:22, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Z1720: OK. Good to know :) . WikiProject Internet is probably the best fit, since this article is about a protocol. I posted on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Internet and asked them if they wanted to take a look at it. This is how one typically reaches out to a WikiProject, right? Jaudriga (talk) 08:17, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Yep, that's the way to do it! Jonathanischoice's comments below are also great advice for this article. Z1720 (talk) 15:46, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Mhh, it seems to just have been archived on the WikiProject Internet's talk page. I am asking on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Computing as well. Jaudriga (talk) 13:53, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Jaudriga: Hi - welcome to Wikipedia :-) I'm (somewhat sporadically) affiliated with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Software/Free and open-source software task force which I think this article is at least partly covered by. I appreciate the point of the requested edit (proposals for JSON versions of ics and vcf) but the bigger problem here is the lack of useful resources, as ~Z1720 has pointed out. If we can find examples of JMAP in the "news" (such that open source and internet standards are in mainstream news at all) then we'd all be a lot happier. In this space, sources like Slashdot, Linux Journal and LWN are possible starting points. I've been attempting to pare down the promo and un-sourced stuff in this article recently, and it still needs a bit of work, and some de-duplication. The subject is notable enough for being the subject of more than one published IETF standard. Jon (talk) 00:57, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

@Jonathanischoice: I had not looked for news articles myself. From some quick googling I found one on Packt (see [6]) and one on Coywolf News [7]. I am not sure about the "mainstreaminess" of these sources, though. Jaudriga (talk) 08:17, 23 November 2020 (UTC)