Talk:J. W. J. Williams

re-adding information from government records

@Kaliforniyka: I recently rewrote the article on J. W. J. Williams. My primary goal was to ensure that sources have enough overlapping details to confirm that they refer to the same person.

I couldn't find a free way to usefully access the sources you used ("1939 England and Wales Register" and "England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1916-2007"), so I removed them and the information associated with them, since I was unable to verify how much overlap there is.

Do you still have access to the records you used, or do you remember which details in the records and the article you used to confirm that they refer to the same person? I'm happy to take your word for it, I just want to avoid accidentally confusing multiple different people.

Solomon Ucko (talk) 04:17, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

I think it's all available at familysearch.org, but why do you need a free way to access it? That is not a standard or else no academic journals and paywalled newspaper sources would be eligible to be used. Sources are not required to be free on Wikipedia. WP:SOURCEACCESS —Мандичка^YO 😜 01:03, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

I tried searching FamilySearch (seems to be free if you give them some personal info, though it doesn't really matter as long as someone can access it and report what they found) and found the following records that could match; how can I confirm which of these refer to the correct person?

• "England and Wales Birth Registration Index, 1837-2008," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQQ-WQG5 : 1 October 2014), John W J Williams, 1930; from "England & Wales Births, 1837-2006," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Birth Registration, Chippenham, Wiltshire, England, citing General Register Office, Southport, England.
  • Name: John W J Williams
  • Event Type: Birth Registration
  • Event Date: 1930
  • Event Place: Chippenham, Wiltshire, England
  • Registration District: Chippenham
  • Page: 94
  • Volume: 5A
  • Affiliate Line Number: 148
  • Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
  • Registration Year: 1930
  • Mother: Haines
• "England and Wales Birth Registration Index, 1837-2008," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQQ-WQLH : 1 October 2014), John J Williams, 1930; from "England & Wales Births, 1837-2006," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Birth Registration, West Derby, Lancashire, England, citing General Register Office, Southport, England.
  • Name: John J Williams
  • Event Type: Birth Registration
  • Event Date: 1930
  • Event Place: West Derby, Lancashire, England
  • Registration District: West Derby
  • Page: 828
  • Volume: 8B
  • Affiliate Line Number: 125
  • Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
  • Registration Year: 1930
  • Mother: Matthews
• "England and Wales Birth Registration Index, 1837-2008," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQQ-W78Q : 1 October 2014), William J Williams, 1930; from "England & Wales Births, 1837-2006," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Birth Registration, Newport (Monmouthshire), Monmouthshire, England, citing General Register Office, Southport, England.
• "England and Wales Birth Registration Index, 1837-2008," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQQ-W7DH : 1 October 2014), Winifred J Williams, 1930; from "England & Wales Births, 1837-2006," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Birth Registration, Stockport, Cheshire, England, citing General Register Office, Southport, England.
• "England and Wales Birth Registration Index, 1837-2008," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQQ-WQVW : 1 October 2014), James J Williams, 1930; from "England & Wales Births, 1837-2006," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Birth Registration, Kensington, London, England, citing General Register Office, Southport, England.
• John J Williams: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQQ-WQLD
• another John J Williams: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQQ-WQLX
• yet another John J Williams: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQQ-WQLZ
• William J Williams: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQQ-W78H
• another William J Williams: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQ3-857Q
• ... I've only filtered through one eleventh of the search results for birth records. (https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&offset=100&q.birthLikeDate.from=1929&q.birthLikeDate.to=1931&q.birthLikePlace=England%2C%20United%20Kingdom&q.birthLikePlace.exact=on&q.givenName=J.%20W.%20J.&q.surname=Williams&q.surname.exact=on) FYI, I have access to the same kinds of info for all of them, I just got lazy about copying it into here for each one.

Searching marriage records (https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&q.givenName=J.%20W.%20J.&q.marriageLikeDate.from=1961&q.marriageLikeDate.to=1963&q.marriageLikePlace=England%2C%20United%20Kingdom&q.marriageLikePlace.exact=on&q.spouseGivenName=Ann&q.spouseGivenName.exact=on&q.surname=Williams&q.surname.exact=on), assuming they were married in England, gives me the following useful records:

• "England and Wales Marriage Registration Index, 1837-2005," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV64-HY9Y : 8 October 2014), Ann Zerny and null, 1962; from "England & Wales Marriages, 1837-2005," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing 1962, quarter 1, vol. 4B, p. 686, Watford, Hertfordshire, England, General Register Office, Southport, England.
  • Name: Ann Zerny
  • Event Type: Marriage Registration
  • Event Date: 1962
  • Event Place: Watford, Hertfordshire, England
  • Registration District: Watford
  • Page: 686
  • Volume: 4B
  • Affiliate Line Number: 17
  • Registration Year: 1962
  • Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
  • Spouse Name (available after 1911): Williams
  • Possible Spouse: John W J Williams
• "England and Wales Marriage Registration Index, 1837-2005," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV6S-QCTF : 8 October 2014), Ann Ridgway and null, 1963; from "England & Wales Marriages, 1837-2005," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing 1963, quarter 1, vol. 10A, p. 613, Crewe, Cheshire, England, General Register Office, Southport, England.
  • Name: Ann Ridgway
  • Event Type: Marriage Registration
  • Event Date: 1963
  • Event Place: Crewe, Cheshire, England
  • Registration District: Crewe
  • Page: 613
  • Volume: 10A
  • Affiliate Line Number: 52
  • Registration Year: 1963
  • Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
  • Spouse Name (available after 1911): Williams
  • Possible Spouse: James W Williams
• "England and Wales Marriage Registration Index, 1837-2005," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVDB-BV2K : 8 October 2014), Ann Casson and null, 1961; from "England & Wales Marriages, 1837-2005," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing 1961, quarter 1, vol. 1B, p. 933, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England, General Register Office, Southport, England.
  • Name: Ann Casson
  • Event Type: Marriage Registration
  • Event Date: 1961
  • Event Place: Tynemouth, Northumberland, England
  • Registration District: Tynemouth
  • Page: 933
  • Volume: 1B
  • Affiliate Line Number: 124
  • Registration Year: 1961
  • Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
  • Spouse Name (available after 1911): Williams
  • Possible Spouse: John Williams

My key question is: how do I identify which of these records refer to the correct person? Solomon Ucko (talk) 05:03, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, if we require the full set of initials to be present, the only matching marriage record is that of John W J Williams and Ann Zerny in the first quarter of 1962 in Watford, Hertfordshire, England.

Can we assume the full set of initials will be present? If so, should I add the marriage record to the article?

I searched Google for "ann zerny" and found a mention in a newspaper with plausible details: "English Penfriends". Sunday Herald Playtime. The Sunday Herald. Sydney, NSW: John Fairfax & Sons Pty. Limited. April 29, 1951. p. 4. Archived from the original on September 21, 2023. Page 29 of Issue PDF. Archive also includes screenshot: http://web.archive.org/web/20230921135432/http://web.archive.org/screenshot/http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18498359. "Ann Zerny, Chalfont Lodge, Gerrards Cross, Buckinghamshire, England. Age, 12. Interests: Swimming, Girl Guides, and anything but needlework. Would like a girl." {{cite news}}: External link in |postscript= (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link)

The date and age indicates that Ann Zerny was born c. 1939, so when they married, John was about 32 and Ann was about 23 years old, which is at the edge of what's reasonable (at least according to xkcd: https://xkcd.com/314/). Google Maps says that Watford and Gerrards Cross are only about 10 miles away from each other.

If we assume the marriage record matches, does the newspaper listing seem likely enough to refer to the same person? If so, should I add it to the article?

Solomon Ucko (talk) 14:32, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

And if it is Ann Zerny, Family Search only has two records with a matching name and compatible dates: the aforementioned marriage record, and the following birth record:

• Name: Ann Zerny
• Event Type: Birth Registration
• Event Date: 1938
• Event Place: St. Albans, Hertfordshire, England
• Registration District: St. Albans
• Page: 1647
• Volume: 3A
• Affiliate Line Number: 78
• Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
• Registration Year: 1938

"England and Wales Birth Registration Index, 1837-2008," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQN-B1DH : 1 October 2014), Ann Zerny, 1938; from "England & Wales Births, 1837-2006," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Birth Registration, St. Albans, Hertfordshire, England, citing General Register Office, Southport, England.

The date does match the newspaper clipping.

Solomon Ucko (talk) 03:07, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I initially missed it, but the birth record also says: Mother: Coopman.

Which matches what I can see of this family tree I found! https://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-112105741/zerny Solomon Ucko (talk) 03:16, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I searched Family Search for last name "Williams" with a mother with last name "Zerny" and found 1 result, that matches one child's name (approximately) and the place of birth of Ann Zerny, and the child's birth is shortly after their marriage!

• Name: Robert J Williams
• Event Type: Birth Registration
• Event Date: 1965
• Event Place: St. Albans, Hertfordshire, England
• Registration District: St. Albans
• Page: 567
• Volume: 4B
• Affiliate Line Number: 123
• Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
• Registration Year: 1965
• Mother: Zerny

"England and Wales Birth Registration Index, 1837-2008," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVWZ-8MLD : 1 October 2014), Robert J Williams, 1965; from "England & Wales Births, 1837-2006," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Birth Registration, St. Albans, Hertfordshire, England, citing General Register Office, Southport, England.

Solomon Ucko (talk) 06:02, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Update: I searched FamilySearch for marriage certificates matching the following criteria, and got only 1 result.

• Husband's initials are J. W. J. Williams (two other results came up with partial sets of initials)
• Occurred between 1961 and 1963, since J. W. J. Williams's obituary states that they were married for 50 years on 29 September 2012. I could've removed one end of this, but I didn't want to screw it up and miss any results.
• Occurred in England, as indicated by most or all sources
• Wife's name is Ann, as stated in J. W. J. Williams's obituary and "And the winners are ... Spectrum's Second Quilt Block Contest"

I ordered the marriage certificate from the General Register Office (Part 1 = Ann Zerny, Party 2 = John W. J. Williams, District = Watford, Year = 1962, Qtr = M, Vol = 04B, Page = 686), and eventually received it. I have transcribed most of the information from it into the article, except for some information that I omitted to protect the privacy of potentially living people.

I also found the following additional to confirm the document's link to the rest of the article:

1. J. W. J. Williams's profession of "Mathematician" matches his B.Sc. stated in "The Software Architecture for a Large Telephone Switch".
2. Ann's profession of "Proff[essional?]Staff Nurse" matches her part-time job listed in "And the winners are ... Spectrum's Second Quilt Block Contest".
3. J. W. J. William's age of 31 on 3 March 1962 is consistent with being age 82 on 29 September 2012 as stated in J. W. J. Williams's obituary. The first statement gives a birth date range of 4 March 1930 thru 3 March 1931, and the second gives 30 September 1929 thru 29 September 1930; assuming both are true gives 4 March 1930 thru 29 September 1930.

I believe this is enough information to conclude that this document refers to the correct person, allowing restoration of J. W. J. Williams's full name of John William Joseph Williams, as well as some additional information.

User:Kaliforniyka, if you can provide a similar statement of what information links your sources to the article, which now includes information from the marriage certificate, please feel free to re-add your sources and the date and place of birth that they state. I'm not requiring that the source is free or that I get to look at it, I just want to confirm that the source refers to the right person.

Solomon Ucko (talk) 04:17, 27 October 2023 (UTC), updated 01:48, 28 October 2023 (UTC)