Talk:Józef Piłsudski/Archive 3

Religion

I've heard that Pilsudski, although born Roman Catholic, became a Lutheran when he married in 1899, since his wife was of that faith. Unless anyone knows anything to the contrary, this should be in the article. Ausseagull (talk) 14:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

If this information can be properly referenced, per WP:V and WP:CITE, I support adding it. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

this should be addressed because he is listed in the category "converts to Catholicism from Lutheranism" and the sidebar gives his religion as Roman Catholic (occasionally Lutheran) without any source. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 21:56, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Józefa

Why is he not called Józefa? 15:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rob G Weemhoff (talk • contribs)

Because he was a male and his Polish given name was, accordingly, "Józef". Nihil novi (talk) 01:29, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

In other words, Józef=Joseph, Józefa=Josephine :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

You may indeed have seen Piłsudski's given name spelled "Józefa". That would have been the name in its genitive ("of Joseph") or accusative ("Joseph" as direct object) case. Nihil novi (talk) 05:44, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

In fact, I saw his name mostly as "Jozefa". Can you please explain why for example many memorial plaques do that? -- 13:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)-- 13:27, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

[I did sign with 4 tildes, but it does not turn up] 13:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rob G Weemhoff (talk • contribs)

Give us some examples of such memorial-plaque texts. Nihil novi (talk) 14:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

You will find some on: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski but I have a photograph from Krakov with the text: Pomnik Marszałka Józefa Piłsudskiego Został uroczscie ... -- 14:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

"A statue of Marshal Józef Piłsudski was solemnly [unveiled]..." It's the genitive case! You would understand this, had you studied Latin, which is, like Polish, an inflected language. Nihil novi (talk) 14:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Dictator Revisited

The issue is not whether this Lithuanian became dictator of Poland. He did. I'm not claiming whether this was bad or was good. Just that it's a fact. An addition like..."but widely accepted and supported by majority of the Polish population" does what? Change any of those facts? Hitler and Mussolini were dictators who were widely accepted and supported by majority of their populations. So what? It's a meaningless entry. Dr. Dan (talk) 22:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

saved Baltic states?

Statues and memorials of Piłsudski were erected in Estonia and Latvia after Piłsudski's death, the Baltic states to this day (with the exception of Lithuania) still look with favour on Piłsudski for saving them from Communist Russia.
Now I cannot comment situation in Latvia, but I can pretty certainly say that Piłsudski isn't considered to have "saved" Estonia from Communist Russia. Estonian War of Independence was over by the time then Polish-Soviet War properly heated up, and I am not aware of any direct cooperation between Estonian and Polish forces. I do believe that Poland and Pilsudski were viewed generally positively, but definitely not considered "saviors". Speaking of "saving" its actually sometimes mentioned, that by being first nation to repel Soviet westward advance and therefore receiving major Red Army attention after that, Estonia actually gave other Baltic states and Poland more time to organize forces :P --Staberinde (talk) 12:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

As I see, that part has no reliable source, therefore it can be deleted. M.K. (talk) 16:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Ukrainian name of Krakow

Well, why is important that the ukrainian name of Krakow ist Krakiv in this article? Especially since the paragraph in which this detail is mentioned has nothing to do with Ukraine? Deleted it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.114.157.68 (talk) 21:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Pole or Lithuanian?

It could good to add how he decribed himself: „Jestem Litwinem” (I'm Lithuanian) [1] and "Litwin to najlepszy Polak" (Lithuanian is the best Pole). Norvila (talk) 23:02, 3 April 2010 (EET)

If you could provide a reliable cite for "Litwin to najlepszy Polak", I'd very much like to see it. I am afraid at best your quote is mangled, as I am getting no hits in Google Books. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:47, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

There is much confusion about the term "Lithuanian". The truth is that this term traditionally denotes "an ethnic Pole who is living on the territory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania". Therefore Piłsudski, Mickiewicz &c. are properly "Lithuanians" not ceasing to be Poles. Mickiewicz even does a remark on it in his writings: "Litwin i Mazur bracia są; czyż kłócą się bracia o to, iż jednemu na imię Władysław, drugiemu Witowt? Nazwisko ich jedne jest: nazwisko Polaków" (A Lithuanian and a Masurian are brothers; do brothers quarrel, because the one is named Ladislav and the other Witold? They have the same last name, the name of Poles). The term changed its meaning, the people we now call "Lithuanians", by Piłsudski and Mickiewicz would be called "Samogitians". 159.205.56.119 (talk) 19:33, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

>If term "Lithuanians" changed its meaning to "Samogitians", then the term "Poles" definitely should be changed to "Masurians" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.181.14.219 (talk) 21:21, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

You misunderstood. In Mickiewicz's view (quoted and translated above) both terms, the "Lithuanian" and "Masurian", denote some subsets of the more general term "a Pole". But this of course does not mean, that these two subsets are exclusive, as Poland (in his view) had more regions than just these two. Mickiewicz is writing from the point of view of the old Republic (where "a Pole" = a Polish-speaking citizen of the Republic, and Lithuanian, Masurian, Greater-Polish, Lesser-Polish, Ruthenian etc. are just indications of the region where the person is living), and Piłsudski's self-identification as a "Lithuanian" comes from the same tradition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.215.107.141 (talk) 21:58, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Length

For a featured article this is awfully long (133 kb). How would people feel about trimming this down some? TallNapoleon (talk) 05:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Contradictions

Piłsudski was aware that the Bolsheviks were no friends of independent Poland, and that war with them was inevitable. The next paragraph reads, This was in contrast to the Bolsheviks, who proclaimed the partitions of Poland null and void... Piłsudski thus speculated that Poland would be better off with the Bolsheviks. Both citations are backed by the same source, but it needs clarification. --Klaus Bertow 08:40, 5 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Klaus Bertow (talk • contribs)

It is clarified by the "He viewed their advance west as a major problem, but also considered the Bolsheviks less dangerous for Poland than their Russian Civil War opponents" sentence. Basically, Piłsudski expected that Bolshevicks would try to take over Poland, but had less of a chance at that than the conservative tsarist-royalists, who saw Poland as part of the Empire, and who had more international support. Hence, even if both sides were hostile to Polish independence, Piłsudski believed Poland could handle victorious Bolshevicks easier than the victorious royalists. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:01, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Nice stache.

Tisane (talk) 22:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

He actually had this big mustache, because two of his front teeth were knocked out during interrogation. It would be nice to integrate this somewhere in the article, but easier said than done, because it is a bit of a trivia at the same time Cambr5 (talk) 17:38, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

November 11 ,and October 7, of 1918

Article states that Piłsudski claimed independence on November 11, 1918. But actually and formally Poland became independent on day 7 October, 1918. From this day, rules over Poland was in hand of president on the emigration (in UK AFAIK). So November 11, was more just a day Piłsudski aquired rights from them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.213.255.7 (talk) 23:36, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Ancestry

I removed the alleged Count title for the Butler family as it does not concern this branch (the Counts are descendant of Gotthard-Wilhelm von Buttlar). These Butlers were confirmed as noble on September 19, 1805 by the nobility assembly of Wilno (see for example the report № 629 of the heraldry department of the governing senate taken on October 24, 1829). Missing names come from further documents of said heraldry department. Charlik (talk) 09:08, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I believe I did make a point of sorts by not having a reply. Would please any serious researcher about the Piłsudski ancestry contact me - I have in copious information about his babka z Butlerow. --Charlik (talk) 19:26, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Is there an error to be corrected in this article? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Brother Kazimierz

Polish Wikipedia mentions that he had also a brother named Kazimierz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.184.215.77 (talk) 10:11, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

True, but he probably belongs to the article about Piłsudski family. pl:Kazimierz Piłsudski was not a very notable figure, anyway. Reminds me, we need to translate pl:Józef Wincenty Piłsudski... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:55, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

section: Descendants

Trivial and absolutely of no consequence to the subject. Józef Piłsudski had two daughters: Jadwiga and Wanda. No sons. This is not an article about Piłsudski family, but about J. P. himself. Both Wanda and Jadwiga had their children (in London, England). None of them are "Japanese". --Emanek (talk) 05:49, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree this stub-section is of little relevance. I support moving it to Piłsudski family. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:53, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Image for infobox

A while ago the infobox image was switched from File:Jozef Pilsudski1.jpg to File:Pilsudski 1910 1920 LOC hec 14263 restored.jpg. While the new image has higher resolution, it is not needed for infobox purposes, and I find the old image "nicer". Polish Wikipedia uses File:Jozef Pilsudski.jpg, which is also nice. Comments appreciated, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:49, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

As nobody seems to care much, I am going to restore the old image. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 21:27, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Sources on Pilsudski dictatorship: Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, The Oxford Companion to Military History, Gale Encyclopedia of Biography, Columbia Encyclopedia and Time Magazine

Pilsudski's rule has been identified as dictatorship with many fascist features by many reliable academic sources and encyclopedias, published both during the Pilsudski dictatorship and later. Pilsudski dictatorship has been discussed on this Talk page earlier. Despite this facts, one of the editors of this page rejected the recently added sourced information as follows: "those aren't reliable sources (answers.com?), sources are being misrepresented and there's no discussion on talk (unless you're referring to some different account)".

To help with the discussion of this issue, here are the quotes from Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, The Oxford Companion to Military History, Gale Encyclopedia of Biography, Columbia Encyclopedia and Time Magazine (October 3, 1927). The first four sources are quoted, for instance at http://www.answers.com/topic/j-zef-pilsudski .

He served as Poland's first head of state until the constitution was established in 1922. After staging a coup in 1926, he served as premier (1926-28) and minister of defense (1926-35) under handpicked premiers, enabling him to rule as the dictator of Poland. "Jozef Pilsudski." Britannica Concise Encyclopedia. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 1994-2010

A militarist and extreme nationalist, he was again dictator in 1926-8 and from 1930 until his death. Although it was all too obvious what a resurgent Nazi Germany and Soviet Union meant for Poland, instead of seeking an alliance with similarly threatened Czechoslovakia, his foreign minister and eventual successor Józef Beck pursued irredentist claims. "Jozef Pilsudski." The Oxford Companion to Military History. Oxford University Press, 2001, 2004

From late 1926 to 1928, and again in 1930, Pilsudski served as Polish prime minister, ruling dictatorially and arresting members of the Sejm who opposed his rule. He was the real ruler of Poland, choosing the holders of important offices. "Jozef Pilsudski." Gale Encyclopedia of Biography. © 2006 by The Gale Group, Inc

There have been recent signs of the Polish Sejm (Parliament) attempting to oust Dictator Josef Pilsudski. The Polish political situation is somewhat unusual. The President (pedagogic Professor Ignatz Moscicki) is the impotent puppet of Josef Pilsudski, Premier, Minister of War & Marshal of Poland, who is actually the law. Although he appears in the Sejm on important occasions (such as political crises, when he dons his much-worn military uniform to terrify his opponents), he leaves much governmental business to another puppet: Vice Premier & Minister of Religion & Education, Professor Kazimierz Bartel.... http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,731016,00.html#ixzz2D20Y4Dan. Time Magazine, Monday, Oct. 03, 1927. Retrieved on 2010-11-22.

See also the following comprehensive contemporary treatise on the subject: Clifford Eugene Garwick, The Pilsudski Dictatorship in Poland, Ohio State University, 1929, 560 pages.

The references to these and other sources are presently restored in the article on Dictator Pilsudski, in the section titled Dictatorship. The editors are requested to review the article on Pilsudski to make sure that POV reverts by Polish nationalists, revisionists and anti-Semites do not happen again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.172.86 (talk) 23:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

These aren't reliable sources. This is Answers.com where someone (you?) put in a bunch of nonsense and claimed it was supported by reliable sources. It's not. The fact that they can't even spell the name right (and not just the diacritics) is a dead give away that it's junk. Compare the actual Britannica article [2] with the supposed Britannica-based article at answers.com. They're completely different. The real Britannica article is essentially very similar to the present Wikipedia article. The other one is just wacky.

One page had to already be protected because of your relentless POV pushing. I guess this one - a featured article no less - will need it too. Volunteer Marek  01:41, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Answers.com indeed quotes these encyclopedias. This however does not make these published encyclopedias unreliable sources. Please consider the following:

(1) Britannica Concise Encyclopedia is a respected and widely used reliable source, see for instance its stellar reviews at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Britannica-Concise-Encyclopedia-Editors/dp/0852298323/;

(2) The assessment of Pilsudski as a dictator from Britannica Concise Encyclopedia is genuine and not inserted into answers.com by somebody sinister. E.g., this assessment is quoted, word-in-word, by such sources as Merriam-Webster Encyclopedia ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/concise/pilsudski,%20j%C3%B3zef%20(klemens) ) and many other sources (see e.g., http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22under+handpicked+premiers%2C+enabling+him+to+rule+as+the+dictator+of+Poland%22 )

(3) Both Britannica Concise Encyclopedia and Columbia Encyclopedia (the latter mentioning obvious fascist features of Pilsudski dictatorship) have already been used as sources in the Wikipedia article on Pilsudski, before the above references on Pilsudski dictatorship have been added

Besides, even if one questions reliability of 1 source, one should not remove all references and the whole section on Pilsudski dictatorship. The current sources quoted to support calling his rule a dictatorship include 5 encyclopedias, 1 academic publication (a book) and 3 contemporary newspaper/journal articles. All these references are to reliable sources, and they all clearly identify Pilsudski as a dictator and his rule as dictatorship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.172.86 (talk) 08:36, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Richard M. Watt, Bitter Glory: Poland and Its Fate, 1918-1939, New York, Simon and Schuster, 1979, ISBN 0-671-22625-8:

"Although the Piłsudski regime had certainly become authoritarian, its counteropposition activities could not be compared to those of many other European governments during this [1930s] decade of emerging fascism....

"In fact, Piłsudski regarded fascism as a menace and some of his government's most immoderate attacks were directed against it. These antifascist moves came to a head in 1934, when the government dissolved several crypto-fascist parties that had arisen out of the right-wing National Democratic Party. One of these groups, the National Radical Camp (ONR), patterned itself closely after the German Nazis, complete with anti-Semitic extremism." (P. 302.)

"Interwar Poland was not a totalitarian state, nor were its leaders avowedly antidemocratic. At no time did Piłsudski or any of his successors refer to their regimes as 'dictatorships.'

"Interwar Poland was as democratic as any of the 'successor states,' and much more than most. In a period when many much larger European nations, like Italy, Germany and Spain, all became authentically fascist, it is incorrect to imply that the Polish political system even modestly resembled theirs.

"If the world's view of interwar Poland was frequently less than sympathetic, much of this disapproval was the result of Piłsudski's... disdain for... public relations." (Pp. 461-62.)

Nihil novi (talk) 09:32, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Nihil novi: it would be appreciated, if you could explain the relevance of these quotes to Pilsudski dictatorship being discussed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.172.86 (talk) 09:37, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

The relevance is that you're misusing sources and engaging in what is a textbook example of POV pushing. Putting aside whether answers.com represents the other sources adequately, we have a lot of sources which contradict the text you're edit warring to insert. We also don't generally use tertiary sources (encyclopedias or dictionaries) or primary sources (time article... from 1929!), particularly for controversial topics. Finally this is a Featured Article, it has undergone extensive vetting, and any substantial changes to it need to acquire consensus on the talk page first. The fact that you've been reverted by three different users should be a big hint that such a consensus has not been acquired.

Of relevance is also the fact that your actions on another article, Stefan Banach, led to that article having to be protected so you couldn't edit it.  Volunteer Marek  13:24, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Marek: your comments do not explain a relevance of the quotes supplied by Nihil novi to Pilsudski dictatorship being discussed here. The quotes do not say whether Pilsudski was a dictator, or not. I hope, Nihil novi and you are not bringing up the unsophisticated variation of the old ridiculous argument characteristic of Polish discourse: "Pilsudski was not as bad as other dictators/fascists/anti-Semites, and he even confronted some other dictators/fascists/anti-Semites occasionally, therefore he is not a dictator/fascist/anti-Semite and should not be called a dictator/fascist/anti-Semite".

Marek: to address the matters in your latest comment above (secondary, primary and tertiary sources), Pilsudski is called a dictator by a variety of reliable and verifiable secondary sources, including published scholarly monographs (see below). Along with such sources, he is called a dictator by a variety of other reliable sources - encyclopedia (Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, The Oxford Companion to Military History, Gale Encyclopedia of Biography, Columbia Encyclopedia and many others), textbooks and reputable news organizations (Time Magazine, Life Magazine, Canberra Times and many others). Here is a small subset of relevant quotes from reliable and verifiable secondary scholarly sources. Ironically, the last reference includes a quote from a speech by Pilsudski himself, where the hero of the Polish nation acknowledges his urge to become a dictator, dating back to 1918. Happy reading.

Paul Dowswell, Dictatorship (Systems of Government) , Gareth Stevens Publishing (July 2005), ISBN-10: 0836858840, ISBN-13: 978-0836858846, p. 14, "General Josef Clemens Pilsudski, first president of Poland, and one of Europe's first dictators...Europe, too, had its authoritarian dictators before the rise of the totalitarians. Among them was Josef Pilsudski of Poland." http://books.google.com/books?id=nwM3fHM2XiwC&pg=PA14

Stephen J.Lee, European Dictatorships 1918-1945, Routledge; 3 edition (May 13, 2008), ISBN-10: 0415454840, ISBN-13: 978-0415454841, p. 315, "Authoritarian dictatorship is normally associated with Pilsudski [...] no one doubted that ultimate power lay in his hands: 'I am a strong man and I like to decide all matters by myself'[96]. To emphasize this point, he reduced the power of the legislature, arguing that 'The Chicanes of Parliament retard indispensable solutions.' He saw Western-style party political manoeuvres as highly destructive in Poland, since they produced a parliament which was in reality a 'House of Prostitutes'. " http://books.google.com/books?id=gLXkGLDxSkAC&pg=PA315

Jacques Delarue and Mervyn Savill, The Gestapo: A History of Horror , Skyhorse Publishing (May 17, 2008), ISBN-10: 1602392463, ISBN-13: 978-1602392465, p.172, "From 1926 to 1936 Poland, previously led by a democratic government, had lived under the dictatorship of Marshal Pilsudski, who before his death had signed a non-aggression pact with Hitler Germany." http://books.google.com/books?id=UNZ4-s5a_IAC&pg=PA172

Jackson J. Spielvogel, Cengage Advantage Books: Western Civilization, Complete , Wadsworth Publishing; 8 edition (January 1, 2011), ISBN-10: 0495913278, ISBN-13: 978-0495913276, p.948, "Already in the 1920s, some eastern European states began to move away from political democracy toward authoritarian structures. [...] Poland established an authoritaian regime in 1926 when Marshal Joseph Pilsudski (peel-SOOT-skee) (1867-1935) created a military dictatorship." http://books.google.com/books?id=9lOrrFgCZIgC&pg=PA948

M. B. B. Biskupski, Independence Day: Myth, Symbol, and the Creation of Modern Poland, Oxford University Press, USA (December 12, 2012), ISBN-10: 0199658811, ISBN-13: 978-0199658817, p.30, "In 1923 Pilsudski, with his characteristic feigned nonchalance, commented on his own role in these events: 'In November 1918 something happened not the least historical, just a typical event... a man walked from the Vienna station who, it turns out, was named Josef Pilsudski. In the course of the next several days, without any efforts on the part of this man, without any pressure, plotting [podkopy] or any kind of permission, something most untypical occurred. This man became a dictator.[58]' " http://books.google.com/books?id=HsvoAiBX7JwC&pg=PA30 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.172.86 (talk) 23:39, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Marek: to address your "vetting" argument. Looking into the editing history of this article, Pilsudski article always called him a dictator, beginning as early as 2005. The current structure of the article (with a section titled "Dictatorship") has been finalized sometime in 2008. This current structure existed until February 10, 2012, when it has been edited to remove all mentions of dictatorship with a justification stating "calling Pilsudski a "dictator" is controversial and not supported by a majority of historians" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski&oldid=476093221 ). Characteristically of Polish scholars and enthusiasts, known internationally for their sharp wit and intelligence, the editor neglected to provide a single source reference from "a majority of historians". Despite admitting a controversial nature of the subject matter, the same editor deemed it unnecessary to initiate any discussions of these extensive edits on the Talk page of the article. The purpose of the current edits and this on-going discussion is to provide references from verifiable and reliable sources supporting the established consensus on the subject matter of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.172.86 (talk) 00:34, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Characteristically of Polish scholars and enthusiasts, known internationally for their sharp wit and intelligence, the editor neglected' - cut it out with the bigotry.  Volunteer Marek  03:34, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Nihil novi: The quotes picked by you do not allow to conclude whether Pilsudski's rule is a dictatorship or not. The only quote that mentions dictatorship states that Pilsudski and his entourage did not view their rule as a dictatorship. I tell you what, Stalin and his henchmen did not call themselves dictators either. They were "friends of the people", or something. Mussolini called himself a Duce and Hitler called himself a Fuhrer, not dictators by any means.

Nihil novi: Nevertheless, thank you for bringing up the book by Richard Watt to our attention. It contains the following quote, that I am adding (properly acknowledging your contribution, of course) to the list of references on Pilsudski dictatorship in the main article:

Richard M. Watt, Bitter Glory: Poland and Its Fate, 1918-1939, New York, Simon and Schuster, 1979, ISBN 0-671-22625-8, p.91, "As 'Chief of State,' once the title of the revered Tadeusz Kosciuszko, Pilsudski was Poland's dictator." http://books.google.com/books?ei=SGyxUPifHMi1iwKb-oHoAQ&id=wYlGAQAAIAAJ&dq=%22Bitter+Glory%3A+Poland+and+Its+Fate%22&q=%22was+Poland%27s+dictator%22#search_anchor — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.172.86 (talk) 01:16, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Without going into anon's agenda, I do think that plenty of sources identify Piłsudski as a dictator, and such claim is not very controversial. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:46, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Sure, I put that in there.  Volunteer Marek  03:56, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Marek: in relation to your latest edit ( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski&diff=524743443&oldid=524734321 ) can you please clarify the following:

1. You wrote, justifying your edits: "rvt POV pushing against consensus". Please indicate where this consensus has been reached on this Talk page. Please note, as it was explained to you above, that Pilsudski has been properly labeled a dictator in this article for nearly 7 years and the Dictatorship section existed in this article for nearly 4 years, before being reverted sometime in February 2012 without any Talk discussions and without providing any source references

2. You wrote, justifying your edits: " ridiculous cite stacking (some of which misrepresent sources)". Are all quoted sources misrepresented, in your opinion? Please provide specific examples of source misrepresentations.

3. You wrote, justifying your edits: "Add mention of sources referring to "dictatorship" (edited with ProveIt))". Can you please explain what did you want to say? Do you want others to add more sources? If yes, why do you delete them? Did you mean to say that you added more sources? It does not look that way.

Marek: in the mean time, please stop reverting the sourced and referenced information. As you can see from the recent history of edits of this page, at least two more editors disagree with your removal of sourced information. Also, at least 3 other editors are telling you that Pilsudski is a dictator, on this Talk page. Let's try to arrive to a consensus. Otherwise, instead of these ridiculous reverts, try doing something that you guys are good at. I mean legal and harmless things, not stealing other peoples' cars or drinking potato vodka by buckets! For instance, those alternatives for you may include fixing some leaking faucets, installing few toilet bowls here and there or introducing us to a hot bloodied Agnieszka or two :)

Tribute in the German Reichstag

The death of Pilsudski was commerated in the Reichstag 1935. As this is actually interesting, it should be included in the article. http://archive.org/details/AdolfHitlerWiedereinfuehrungDerWehrpflicht1935-05-21 --41.151.18.167 (talk) 11:30, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Was this in some way exceptional or was it standard procedure for when heads of state died? I don't particularly see it as noteworthy. Countries usually commemorate the passing of each other's leaders as long as they are not actively at war with one another. This seems like another attempt at POV pushing. Volunteer Marek  15:54, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

If true -not noteworthy ? Four years later Germany started WWII by invading Poland. Have Volunteer Marek no hitorical knowledge at all ? I've never heared about it though. 83.249.173.211 (talk) 06:42, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

International sources about Józef Piłsudski

First let me point out that the Polish history between the late 1700's and 1991 is full of sad events, that has affected the Polish people. But the Polish history writing at Wikipedia must still follow Wikipedia rules. Not only by sources. The article about Józef Piłsudski is only reguarded from certain aspects. All (or most) negative sides removed. All non-Polish sources states that even if Piłsudski consolidated the new reborn Polish state in 1919, and defended this towards the USSR he also captured Lithuanian land,including it's present Capital city, Vilnius. Further in 1926 he made a military coup, and became dictator of Poland. Poland was not (as fx Czeckoslovakia in the 1930's) a democratical state. (yet article makes attacks against Czeckoslovakia, and do not explain reasons why Czeckoslovakia didn't want to form an alliance with Poland) And after his death the military junta ruled Poland, the most well-known member of this junta was Józef Beck (previously the foregin secreatary). In early 1937 Poland declined Germany to build a motorway and a dual track railway through the corridor, so that East Preussia and the main part of Germany could be connected. By 1938 when Hitler invaded the Sudetenland (where all Czeckoslovakian defencelines towards Germany were placed) or possibly in spring of 1938 when Hitler invaded the entire Bohemia and Mähren (the Czeck part of Czeckoslovakia), Poland also "grabbed" a piece of Czeckoslovakia. Not a large area, but still. The Polish regime 1926-1939 was no saint. (Even if Nazigermany was far worse, but that's beside the point). There is a clear tendance of only supporting certain points of views and disreguarding other, in both text and through the selected sources. Like what an (nameless) Italian ambassador might have told someone else (also nameless) about what he might have thought about the appearance of Piłsudski (without stating the circumstances or even in what year). This is an example of "hearsay by reference" and cannot be used in a serious historical article. United international world-wide sources supports that Piłsudski (and his military junta that succeeded him) was a dictator (and dictatorship junta). No general election was held in Poland 1926-39. The enitre article "tips" far too much in the opposite direction. Including several dubios and/or biosed sources. (not allbut far too many) There is an obvious lack of balance in the Józef Piłsudski article. (And rembember the Katyn massacre error that lasted 50 years) Boeing720 (talk) 02:42, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

This appears to be the same user who has been edit warring on the article for the past few months, as well as posting insulting and harassing comments to various users' talk pages. I could be wrong but the POV and specific issues emphasized are exactly the same. Junta, Italian ambassador, dictator (which is already mention in the article). So it's either sock puppeting or coordination.Volunteer Marek 02:51, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, please report this to SPI. That said, I am open to a discussion if certain facts and terms. like "dictator", should not be added to the lead. I'll note that back in 2010 the lead had a sentence "and became the de facto dictator of Poland" ([3]). Overall, I am supportive of adding a claim that he was a dictator to the lead, perhaps simply by restoring this sentence. I am having some 'net connection issues, so I am not going to trace who removed this claim and when - would be interesting to check. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:42, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem with that proposal.Volunteer Marek 23:43, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Polish general elections / pretidential elections during 1926-1939 ?

If any general election (available to all Polish people to vote) to the parliament or any kind of presidential election took place in Poland between may 1926 and the German (and 17 days later USSR- ) invation, then please enlighten me about these eledged elections. Boeing720 (talk) 15:40, 10 March 2013 (UTC) By the way, my ato-login doesn't work after visits at other Wikipedias. My current IP is 83.249.173.211 (talk) 15:46, 10 March 2013 (UTC) but is not permanent, just putting all cards on the table. (And I do not concider Polish people as car-thiefs etc.)/Boeing720, Scania, occupied by Sweden since 1711.

There were four general elections in Poland between the coup and WWII; 1928, 1930, 1935, and 1938. The primary effect of the coup was a change in the government and the de-legalization of far right parties (though, at least in the immediate aftermath, there was a general repression against Pilsudski's opponents).Volunteer Marek 23:55, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Also a reshuffling of power from the legislative to the executive branch, per the August Novelization, which should be mentioned in this article (and that article should be improved).Volunteer Marek 00:29, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Polish legislative election, 1928, Polish legislative election, 1930, Polish legislative election, 1935, Polish legislative election, 1938 did happen. They were not fully free, but they were not a total sham like let's say communist elections later. The lead is not the best part to discuss how free were they, so it's better not to mention them. To say they did not happen is a clear falsehood. PS. From the 1928 article, referenced: "the 1928 election is generally considered the last free election in Poland until 1989". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:21, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

the commemorative coin

The Polish mint issued a silver 10-złoty commemorative coin featuring the Marshal's profile.

I am in doubt about this information. First, the sentence makes an impression that one of the special things about the coin was that it was silver; but in fact, all regular Polish coins (2, 5, and 10 złoty) until 1939 were made of silver, so this was nothing special. Second, indeed, there are known 2, 5, 10 zł (silver) coins which carry Marshal's profile on them, but they were issued a year earlier, in 1934, to mark the 20th anniversary of the beginning of the "Legionary Deed" in 1914. Third, I do not remember such a commemorative coin issued in 1935. So, until this information is properly sourced, I would be inclined to think that someone saw the coins with Piłsudski's profile on them, and assumed that they were commemorative of his death, not realizing that they have been issued in 1934. 159.205.56.119 (talk) 19:15, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Recovered Vilnius

That's a new low, even by Polish cabal standards. "Newly born Lithuanian state", well was a Kingdom of Lithuania circa 1251 did never exist, and Poles did not ever stole the rightful Vytautas crown. Such an undescribable desire to scorch and torture facts, to be on top of things, that they do not have a slightest idea about, what they're talking about. Lithuanian state was reestablished in the same manner as Poland. No less. Just without dubious partners, who did try to recover something, that did not ever belong to them. First Poland's President was shot for being Samogitian, and they still insist "recovered". This recovery, as a matter of fact was an international crime. Yup, Pilsudski, a Samogitian noble staged an international act of war, played his allies and "recovered". If it suits you, I would not care any more/ Have a good trip, just do not overdose. It is bad for your health and reputation. I do love to see ignorance to be portrayed as a patriotism. Lokyz (talk) 21:19, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

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The funeral train "touring Poland"

Ceremonies, masses and an enormous funeral were held; a funeral train toured Poland.

It did not "tour Poland". It just travelled - although slowly, to allow people gathering on the route to show respect - from Warsaw to Cracow by one direct route of about 300 km. Also, in the entire section, describing in detail what were the feelings of communists, socialists, national-democrats, ethnic minorities etc., it is clearly missing how the normal Polish citizens en masse reacted to that death: the crowds gathering to mourn were spontaneous, as Piłsudski was a very popular man being commonly highly esteemed for his legend of the one who revived the free Republic and successfully fought against Soviets to secure the liberty of the citizens.

(to unsigned) I guess most of this is correct. But It was indeed Pilsudski who began the war on Russia or Soviet Russia. Not the other way around. The reason for Pilsudski's invasion of Ukraine isn't known to me. But the war began that way. Pilsudski perhaps wished to liberate Ukraine from the Bolsheviks, but a south-eastbound expansion of the new Poland, can't be ruled out and had historical roots. Not positive for the Ukranians. More important, the Ukraine people feared Poland far more than they feared Russia. Pilsudski managed to put an end to the Red Army "Marsh on Warsaw" through a splendid strategy. But before that, he had completely failed in Ukraine. Boeing720 (talk) 23:34, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

The reason for Piłsudski (and Petlura's) "invasion of Ukraine" is widely known and rather obvious. We are just waiting for the Ukraine's politicians to understand, that there is no other way than the one which Piłsudski understood to be the only solution already 120 years ago. He tried to accomplish this project, and failed. He was one of the few who understood that Poland LOST the war of 1920, and it is easy to see why. When I read the comments such as the one above, I cannot help but admire how a wise and intelligent man he apparently was, and, on the other hand, how stupid and narrow-thinking most people are.

Portrait of Józef Piłsudski

Greetings,

I have a portrait of Józef Piłsudski. It is from the estate of another famous Polish general. If you are interested in possibly using it for this article. Please email me and I will scan it. I have to take it out of the frame to scan it, so I will not do that unless you are mostly serious.

Sincerely, Joseph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:1128:5A00:C88E:B0C:213A:DDED (talk) 01:45, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

References

References

Ukraine 1920, Vilnius, after 1926 a fascistic state. Too positive tone for this status

According to Polish historic author Isaac Deutscher "Stalin - a political biography", Pilsudski was to blame for the war known as the Polish-Russian War. Pilsudski perhaps had good intentions even from an Ukranian point of view (but that is unclear), but his beliefs were at least a complete misjudgement of the Ukranian people. They didn't see Pilsudski or Poland as liberators, but as attackers. (The long Polish ruling and oppression vs Ukranians during the 16th and 17th century in memory, it was a stupid idea) There is also the Wilno -issue. After WW1, Poland's borders to Germany were (largely) regulated through referendums (where the people majority was unclear) but Poland's borders in the east wasn't regulated at all. Poland simply grabbed the Lithuanian capital. There also was some problem with Czechoslovakia, I believe. And the Polish state after 1926 became a fascist state. Very friendly with Mussolini's Italy, Dollfuss' Austria and later Franco's Spain. The new Poland was certainly no democratic state after Pilsudski's coup in 1926. Think the tone is too positive for this status. Boeing720 (talk) 03:12, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Deutscher was Trotskyist, not Polish. He was a member of the illegal Communist Party, so I understand his anti-Polish bias. Pilsudski was a democrat comparing to Polish Communists, who expelled Deutscher, Poles didn't. Xx236 (talk) 09:11, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

By calling Polish state "fascist" you have revealed your anti-polish bias. Another manipulation is "a problem with Czechoslovakia". Your credibility in the field of history is null. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.7.98.122 (talk) 23:25, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

A "fascist state”?? Common Boeing720 :) much of luck obtaining reliable references to back up this statement.GizzyCatBella (talk) 23:49, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella: Given your input here, I must assume you put an equal sign between Nazism and fascism. This has two roots, first Komintern and Stalin's USSR had learned that Italian Fascism largely was based on Anti-socialism. During the Spanish Civil War Komintern through the USSR fought Franco's fascists. In communist vocabulary "fascism" and after 1941 Nazigermany became one and the same. Also many American (and some British) soldiers and officers fought "Germany and Italy" and between December 1941 and September 1943, there was not much point in differentiate their European enemies politically. I do not put an equal sign between fascism and Nazism. Neither does for instance Michael Burleigh(Hardly considered "right" and a well respected historian), "The Racial State", p. 306-307 (ISBN 0521398029) :

"The Third Reich was intended to be a racial rather than a class society. This fact in itself makes existing theories, whether based upon modernisation, totalitarianism, or global theories of Fascism, poor heuristic devices for a greater understanding of what was a singular regime without precedent or parallel."

What I mean is - Poland became a far right non-democracy from Pilsudski's cuop in 1926. (the fascist label is less important). Poland had very good relations with Mussolini's Italy, Dollfuss' Austria, Primo de Rivera's Spain until 1930/31 and other European countries with similar non-democratical regimes. (But Czechoslovakia was not a dictatorship, when Hitler was given Sudetenland and then more or less "allowed" to grab the rest of that country, Józef Beck let Poland grab a smaller piece of Czechoslovakia - see this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovakia#/media/File:Czechoslovakia_1939.SVG ).And are you questioning the Polish-Russian War or that Wilno (today Vilnius in Lithuania) was captured ? (100 years ago)

We are talking HISTORY not TODAY !!! Would I be anti-Polish if I had written that Poland was communistic 1945-1989 ?????

I'm most certainly not anti-Polish. Nor biased. Besides, I live in a building with 6 flats, two of them has Polish tenants and I have a Polish (female) dentist. I have had plenty of Polish-related school mates and lots of other Polish acquaintances. The last time I was in Poland was in September this year. Why pull the trigger like that ? Boeing720 (talk) 03:12, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Your opinions about pre-war Poland are biased. Perhaps your sources are biased? Wilno was a Polish-Jewish city at that time, the number of Lithuanians low, please verify your data. Czechoslovakia grabbed Zaolzie when Poland was weak. Czechoslovakia was a democracy for Czech people, Slovaks weren't happy and Germans were discriminated. Xx236 (talk) 09:22, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Boeing720, Please read a little further about the Sanacja government in prewar Poland, you may reach different judgments.GizzyCatBella (talk) 03:46, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Quote from that article lead " advocated authoritarian rule, rested on a circle of Piłsudski's close associates," - that's not democracy ! Although Piłsudski wasn't President of the republic, a small group ruled without free elections. And to the far right. Resembling Mussolini, Prima de Rivera, Franco, Dollfuss and others (but not Hitler, and not Stalin either). And even if I didn't remember exactly what trouble that happened between Poland and Czechoslovakia, there was a conflict. Why so personal ? Anti-Polish and bias ??? If I wrote something negative on Woodrow Wilson, Herbert Hoover or Franklin Delano Roosevelt, would I then be Anti-American ? If I wrote something negative on Winston Churchill or Neville Chamberlain or Benjamin Disraeli would I then be Anti-British ? Etc. I've seen you have caused some trouble before, subjects you have been unauthorized to contribute to. Please stop getting personal and discuss matters in civil manners. Boeing720 (talk) 08:47, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

@Boeing720, How do you know the IP who composed this comment [4] “caused some trouble before”? He just made two edits all together [5] GizzyCatBella (talk) 13:22, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

From your own talk-page:

Headline: Edit war

Other contributer to you: "Please what is happening in the article History of the Jews in Poland and the Lwow pogrom (1918). There is an concerted attack going on." removed user 12:58, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Your own reply - "I’m sorry, I can’t comment on the issue, I’m currently topic banned from all Poland/WW2 related articles. GizzyCatBella (talk) 15:53, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

And I would argue , to be banned from a specific topic, is not normal at English Wikipedia. Neither was your accusation of me as anti -Polish and biased ! Learn ! Boeing720 (talk) 15:46, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

@Boeing720 confusing an unsigned IP comment [6] with this one [7]. Correct?. Are you aware of that? GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:38, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

My comments after you arrived here, relates to both comments - naturally. And why the Sanacja government issue first ? Nothing on any IP-user then !? Learn from this, so you won't be banned from further topics too. End. Boeing720 (talk) 02:39, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Then what is this all about?? [8]. So you didn't make a mistake and you were well aware of an unsigned IP remark all this time?? GizzyCatBella (talk) 06:10, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

On the IP-mystery, there is no IP visible at this talk-page. The history file reveals however:

1. I wrote my comments to this featured article at 4.October.

2. No edits were then made at this talk-page from that date until 29.October.

3. Then, within less than 25 minutes, 25 days later, you say two different replies were made.

4. After my ping and reply to you, your very first comment didn't include anything on this "Mystery IP man".

5. I'm just pointing out facts here. Period.

Boeing720 (talk) 22:58, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

The original comment of an IP [9] is signed now [10] thanks to the courtesy of —DIYeditor. If you could please cease accusations and perhaps do, what I have requested on your talk page [11] that would be great. Thanks GizzyCatBella (talk) 23:35, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

??? (There's nothing more to be said unless you're prepared to discuss article improvements) Boeing720 (talk) 00:04, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Fascism means modernization and Piłsudski was conservative. Fascism was totalitarian, the Polish dictatorship was limited. Perhaps a totalitarian state would have been stronger in 1939.Xx236 (talk) 09:24, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Miguel Primo de Rivera was a military dictator, he wasn't fascist. His son was fascist.Xx236 (talk) 09:28, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

The Third Reich was "racial-social", rich Germans were taxed, poor Germans cared. Xx236 (talk) 09:33, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

== Foreign Policy