Talk:Józef Franczak
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What is his birth date? edit
Was he born on March 17, 1918, March 25, 1918, May 25, 1918, or March 17, 1919?
The first sentence says "17 March 1918".
The Infobox Person says "17 March 1919".
The first sentence in the Biography section says "March 25, 1918".
I think this page (JÓZEF FRANCZAK (1918–1963) ) says "25 May 1918".
Chuck Coker (talk) 01:26, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
External links modified edit
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Poleszak article edit
I can't find content in it that supports the stated claim ("arguing that Franczak had turned in a Jewish tailor Szmul Helfman to the Germans to be killed and suggesting that he became a cursed soldier because of fear of being held accountable for his actions during the Holocaust") in the source [1]. On the contrary it states "Dlatego też na podstawie materiału zgromadzone-go w śledztwie nie sposób z pełną odpowiedzialnością wskazać bezpośrednich sprawców oddania Szmula Helfmana niemieckim żandarmom". and latter suggests that it is likely that the weak evidence in this case was manipulated/faked by the authorities: "Należałoby się zastanowić, czy poddany analizie materiał jest jednostronny i był gromadzony przez funkcjonariuszy UB, by obciążyć i zdepre-cjonować konspiratora, którego przez długie powojenne lata nie mogli schwytać. Wydaje się, że taka uwaga może zostać uznana za zasadną jedynie w przypad-ku podejrzenia o współodpowiedzialność za wydanie niemieckiej żandarme-rii Szmula Helfmana. Przypomnę, że tylko zeznania Franciszka Becia obciążały Franczaka współodpowiedzialnością za ten czyn." If anything, we could add to the article that the communist government concluded he did so, but that claim has been challenged by modern research. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:13, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- It seems awfully rich to complain that you need a better source for a tweet (!) or well known, not contested by anyone, present memory practices, when most of this article has no sources at all. Nevertheless, even if it can't be proven exactly what happened, Poleszak suggests that fear of being prosecuted may well be a factor in Franczak's actions. Read the last few pages of the article. (t · c) buidhe 01:33, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Fear of persecution for a number of different incidents, out of which the single one you added is described as most likely false. Why did you choose the weakest one, that the scholar in question argues is false? I don't object to saying that Franczak stayed in hiding due to fear of persecution, though it is pretty commons sense. Most partisans and such, by definition, hide from the authorities who consider them criminals or enemies of the state. Hardly a revelation. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:48, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think that's an accurate characterization of the article. I think that Poleszak says that it's not definitively proven who did it, quite different than "most likely false". Anyway, if you prefer to highlight one of the other incidents or discuss all of them, please go ahead. (t · c) buidhe 02:00, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- If I have the time. For now I am just pointing out that the content you have added clearly is not supported by the source you added. The author does not "argue that Franczak had turned in a Jewish tailor", on the contrary, he noted that this was likely a fabrication by the communist secret services, or at the very least that this conclusion was based on very weak evidence and likely politically motivated in order to discredit the subject. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:10, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- From the Author: współudziału w pojmaniu i przekazaniu w ręce niemieckiej żandarmerii w Piaskach Helfmana, nazywanego powszechnie Szmulikiem”. Był to młody, najprawdopodobniej 18-letni, krawiec, próbujący przetrwać na wsi okupację/ complicity in the capture and handing over to the German gendarmerie in Piaski Helfman, commonly known as Szmulik ". He was a young, probably 18-year-old, tailor, trying to survive the occupation in the countryside https://zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/view/683/744?fbclid=IwAR0CK3fCtbDqnYSR98oP6gc5aKYXXQHAKunaoeh-DAX8afr55qeyr9qHoPI185.161.95.31 (talk) 19:49, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- You quote a declarative sentence about the occupation of the victim. Nowhere in the source, there is a conclusion that Franczak was responsible, the author notes that the evidence for his involvement is very weak, based on a single testimony extracted by the communist secret police, and concludes, as cited above, that it is unlikely Franczak was responsible for that crime. The article discusses how Franczak was involved in a well-documented incident of a shoot-out with Jewish partisans, and beating down a Polish family hiding some Jews, that's hardly disputed and I have added this to the article. But that other incident is, and therefore should not be mentioned here outside perhaps of a note that 'he was also accused of crime x but historian y noted it is likely a fabrication' or such. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:22, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- How is complicity in handing over a Jew to the Nazis as stated by the author from IPN not a conclusion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.161.95.31 (talk) 13:23, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- You quote a declarative sentence about the occupation of the victim. Nowhere in the source, there is a conclusion that Franczak was responsible, the author notes that the evidence for his involvement is very weak, based on a single testimony extracted by the communist secret police, and concludes, as cited above, that it is unlikely Franczak was responsible for that crime. The article discusses how Franczak was involved in a well-documented incident of a shoot-out with Jewish partisans, and beating down a Polish family hiding some Jews, that's hardly disputed and I have added this to the article. But that other incident is, and therefore should not be mentioned here outside perhaps of a note that 'he was also accused of crime x but historian y noted it is likely a fabrication' or such. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:22, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- From the Author: współudziału w pojmaniu i przekazaniu w ręce niemieckiej żandarmerii w Piaskach Helfmana, nazywanego powszechnie Szmulikiem”. Był to młody, najprawdopodobniej 18-letni, krawiec, próbujący przetrwać na wsi okupację/ complicity in the capture and handing over to the German gendarmerie in Piaski Helfman, commonly known as Szmulik ". He was a young, probably 18-year-old, tailor, trying to survive the occupation in the countryside https://zagladazydow.pl/index.php/zz/article/view/683/744?fbclid=IwAR0CK3fCtbDqnYSR98oP6gc5aKYXXQHAKunaoeh-DAX8afr55qeyr9qHoPI185.161.95.31 (talk) 19:49, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
- If I have the time. For now I am just pointing out that the content you have added clearly is not supported by the source you added. The author does not "argue that Franczak had turned in a Jewish tailor", on the contrary, he noted that this was likely a fabrication by the communist secret services, or at the very least that this conclusion was based on very weak evidence and likely politically motivated in order to discredit the subject. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:10, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think that's an accurate characterization of the article. I think that Poleszak says that it's not definitively proven who did it, quite different than "most likely false". Anyway, if you prefer to highlight one of the other incidents or discuss all of them, please go ahead. (t · c) buidhe 02:00, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- Fear of persecution for a number of different incidents, out of which the single one you added is described as most likely false. Why did you choose the weakest one, that the scholar in question argues is false? I don't object to saying that Franczak stayed in hiding due to fear of persecution, though it is pretty commons sense. Most partisans and such, by definition, hide from the authorities who consider them criminals or enemies of the state. Hardly a revelation. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:48, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
@Buidhe, since you were using the same source to back up your claim [2] pl -->"Sprawa wydania Niemcom Szmula Helfmana" - en. --> "The issue of extraditing Szmul Helfman to the Germans" page 251. (Please re-read the entire section from page 251 to page 255) you wrote that the above source concluded that - quote from your edit - In 2020, IPN historian Sławomir Poleszak published a study in Zagłada Żydów arguing that Franczak had turned in a Jewish tailor Szmul Helfman to the Germans to be killed and suggesting that he became a cursed soldier because of fear of being held accountable for his actions during the Holocaust [3] can I invite you to comment on the IP's selective quotation above? What exactly is the source position regarding that accusation Buidhe? What is the author's conclusion? Also, what do you think about an IP making these two edits[4],[5] (note also an edit summary) into the main space of the article regardless of the above? - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:42, 16 December 2020 (UTC)