Talk:Ivan Ćurković

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Country of birth

I'm not saying that anyone endorses NDH. Just, in cases like this, it is customary on Wikipedia not to use the illegitimate puppet states as the country of birth. Thus, we equally avoid Independent State of Croatia, Nedić's Serbia, Biafra, or Republic of Serbian Krajina. In my opinion, the point of that piece of information is to geolocate the place of birth, rather to enter into fine (and often ugly) political details. Surely no one would proudly say for oneself "I was born in Third Reich". I suppose I could dig out the Wikipedia discussion about this stuff if you like... No such user (talk) 06:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, being "illegitimate", "puppet" or whatever doesn't make them any less of a historical fact. They existed. If the point of "countryofbirth" entry is ONLY to geolocate the player's place of birth we might as well put geographical coordinates. As for being born in the Third Reich and the associated pride with it or lack thereof... that should not even enter into this discussion. Simply listing a state entity that clearly existed (however flawed, appalling, disgusting, repugnant, atrocious, etc. it might have been) as someone's place of birth is in no way an endorsement of that time in history. Could you please dig up that discussion, I'd like to look it over.99.253.194.60 (talk) 03:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Accidentaly I found this discussion here. I have been one of the ferotious defenders of using the country of birth at time of birth in the biographies. Not for any particular reason, but because a long time ago I was told to do so and now I defend it because I find it practical, but also right. However, curiously, here I understand both of you prefectly well... On one hand, I am tempted to agree with 99.253.194.60, however, in the practice, despite being Serb, I have been using as country of birth the Independent State of Croatia, but not Nedić's Serbia just as exemple... That makes me wonder, where is the limit of what we consider a legitime state and thus useable for putting in the infobox? FkpCascais (talk) 04:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I cannot find that discussion (if there was one, my memory is rather vague). I did not make up that custom myself, though. To engage a bit in ruleslawyering, {{Infobox Person}} says "sovereign state" for the "birthplace" parameter, and List of sovereign states in 1942#Other states lists NDH as one "which were not recognized as sovereign by a majority of countries". I browsed through several biographies linking to Special:Whatlinkshere/Independent State of Croatia and the only one I found stating NDH as country of birth (CoB) was Mirsad Fazlagić recently changed by 99.253 [1]. Really, I find the stuff "born in NDH" rather embarrassing for a biography: it is just not something that people put in a biography, one's own or someone else's.
By the way, I find that discussion about CoB on Wikiproject football rather lame. Why do we have to put any CoB in the goddam infobox, if it is clear from the context that it is from the same area where the person has lived? It just creates unnecessary quarrels: --It is Estonia -- No it's USSR -- No it's Estonian SSR. When there is a problem, simply omit it, because there is no simple solution. See for example, Jörg Schönbohm (born September 2, 1937 in Neu Golm). It is clear where Neu Golm is, and even mentioning just Germany (or Yugoslavia) in the case at hand is more than enough -- rather than Nazi Germany or Nedić's Serbia, which is [sort of] insulting. The state or entity which happened to rule the particular territory at the time a person had 0 years is not, usually, particularly relevant for their later achievements.
I would not mind a RFC about the issue, if that would settle the matter for good, just, I don't think if that's an efficient use of everyone's time. No such user (talk) 07:46, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

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