Talk:Italians of Ethiopia

Translation

I am translating the voice from Italian wikipedia (it:Italo-etiopici). Hope it will be well done.--RoyalY (talk) 03:19, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

This article is a POV joke

This article is a POV pushing disaster. So it was Mussolini who abolished slavery in Ethiopia, eh?

According to Haile Selassie's own writing, all the Ethiopian Emperors beginning in the 1800s had repeatedly abolished slavery, but it was never good enough for Mussolini trying to convince Europe that Ethiopia still practised slavery and needed to be invaded and the people slaughtered with mustard gas. Wikipedia needs to get its act together and record the truth of how many times slavery was abolished in Ethiopia; it is incredible and troublesome that anyone in 2011 could openly defend Mussolini's barbarity let alone a supposedly neutral encyclopedia. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:06, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with Eulenspiegel. The article is fair and details what the Italians did in Ethiopia: that is what requires an encyclopedia. Wikipedia cannot be impartial if only gives critics of Mussolini or Stalin or whoever: for example slavery was NOT erased in Ethiopia before the Italians arrived in 1936....please read all the books of serious academics about. The writings of Haile Selassie are on his POV...like are on another POV the writings of Graziani and Badoglio: let's put both on wikipedia! This will make wikipedia REALLY neutral.--4researchvita (talk) 02:20, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Is there an English reading comprehension problem here? The article isn't considered "neutral" until it presents all significant points of view. Currently, it does not, and the article itself it written with a discernible point of view and is very one-sided, hence it cannot be called "neutral". When it is worded according to wikipedia principles, so that both someone holding Mussolini's POV, as well as someone else holding Haile Selassie's POV, can each read the article in impartial language without being offended by the endorsement of a POV, and when both sides are fully presented without favoritism, that's what we call "neutral". If the neutrality warning is removed again while the article is one-sided, I can promise this unjust matter will be pushed up for greater attention per due process. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 06:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

There it is no need to go down to a "process": I am the first who wants neutrality, please read "be my guest"--4researchvita (talk) 21:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Be my guest

Ok. Add the POVs of Selassie. Be my guest (allow me to write that I appreciate some of your articles). But remember that this article is about the Italians in Ethiopia and not about Mussolini and his fascist behaviour (gass, etc..) in Ethiopia. There are other articles dealing about this: please read "Italo-Ethiopian war" or Tito Minniti's discussion, where you can find a good translation of the crimes done by the Ethiopians from an official book of the Italian Air Force. Keep in mind that there are other 20 something articles about Italians in different countries of the world (like Italians in Brasil or in Switzerland or whatever) and no one has received the critics of POVs that you do.....Regards,--4researchvita (talk) 21:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Here it is what is written in Tito Minniti's Discussion about the causes of Italy's use of gas in Ethiopia:....<< I have added a book from the Ufficio Storico Aviazione Militare ([1])and here it is an excerpt (p.58-61) with translation:

Something had been reported by the Swiss Paul Gentizon, reporter of "Temps", who had been struck by the excessive disproportion between the high number of Italians killed compared to the relatively lower [number] of the wounded in the fightings of December. "It can be explained - he had candidly written - by the fact of surprise attacks, of hand to hand fightings, maybe also by the need of finishing the wounded."The suppression of wounded prisoners, that for Gentizon was a mere guess, in the reality had apalling aspects.As already known, on 15 Dec. 1935, after the treatment of Dembeguinà [an ambush to Italian troops], the men of Immirù had massacred 150 Italian and Erytrean wounded and prisoners [note: this fact, as explained by Pedriali in note 3 about that passage, is confirmed by Col. Konovaloff, a white Russian military aidé of the Negus, and is reported also by Anthony Mockler]. Again in the same month: on the 3rd at Debrì, South-East of Macallè, an Erytrean ascaro [colonial soldier] had been captured and disemboweled; on th 18th at Addi Addi, the aforementioned Lt. De Martino had been evirated and mutilated of both the hands. On the 24th, at Dagabur in Ogaden, 2nd Lt. pilot Tito Minniti, while he was still alive, had been mutilated of the fingers and cut the genitals. Then he was skinned, beheaded and his head was exihibited on the tip of spear in various places. The testimony came from an attaché of the Egyptian Red Cross, who, again in Dagabur, had personally watched the torture of another Italian soldier: mutilaled, impaled and trasported to a stake pierced on a metal bar laying on the back of two camels. On the 28th, after a fighting in the region of Macallè, out of 44 Italian KIA, 25 were found evirated and mutilated. Similiar atrocities were repeated by the Ethiopians in the following months. Italian archives are rich of full and circumstantiated documentations. The top of the horror was reached in February 1936, at the expense of 74 Italian workers working in the road yard of Mai Lahlà. The killing of hundreds of wounded and prisoners, Italian and Erytrean, was the system, not the exception. Moreover we remember the unfortunate Blackshirts of the Diamanti Group, left wounded during the first battle of Tembien, and all ruthlessly slaughtered. >>

As you can see, Til Eulenspiegel, the official POV of the Italian Air Force is different from the one of Selassie and his Allies...and has nothing to do with the usual Ethiopian propaganda "Italians=Fascists".--4researchvita (talk) 22:38, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Funny you should mention the word 'propaganda'; ironically that is exactly how I would characterize much of the current text that, incredible as it is, actually endorses the pov that Ethiopians 'had it coming' for the same litany of pretexts that the world became accustomed to hearing from the fascist mouthpieces in the 30s... My understanding is that no grudge was held by the Emperor or Ethiopia insofar as Mussolini was repudiated by the. Italian people following WW2. At any rate, wp clearly cannot endorse a point-of-view, though it can neutrally describe plenty of opposing points of view, including the Emperor's own remarks on the subject of Mussollini's attempted colonisation of Ethiopia. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok. So let's write about the Italians in Ethiopia "neutrally". Be my guest, as said before. And please, admin Syrthiss, don't erase in a REAL fascist way the reference to what is written (about ethiopian massacres & mutilations of POWs) in the official book of the Italian Air Force with the excuse of "respect to Eulenspiegel".(;D) Sincerely, B.D.

Article was deleted for being recreated by socks

This article was recently deleted because it was created by sockpuppets of banned users, and has now been recreated again, but it is the same old propaganda vehicle. The Emperor of Ethiopia Haile Selassie devoted much space in his autobiography written in exile, to disputing the claim that dum dum bullets were used, as Fascist propaganda. He says they were outdated fucile gras bullets. Unfortunately wikipedia now appears to fully endorse Mussolini's viewpoint that dumdum bullets were used against the Geneva Convention. All that needs to be changed, and the Emperor's viewpoint needs to be added as significant to the topic, including his well-sourced views of Mussolini's attempts to colonize Ethiopia. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 20:45, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I have but one question - can you easily fix the article? If not, it should be summarily deleted again. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:55, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

A couple of things I'd like to ask... how different is this from the deleted version? A couple of things I'm concerned with here... If it's substantially similar, I think we have some attribution problems -- but more importantly (though not to dismiss the importance of attribution), should the whole section not be blanked? Either the IP which added that substantial text is the banned user in question, in which case it should be blanked, as Wikipedia:BAN#Site ban is quite clear. Or, it's not the banned user, and we have both a copyright issue and content from a banned user. The content would then need to be deleted, and the revisions deleted with it since they could not meet our attribution requirements, presumably. It'd be an absurd twist to reinstate the page history for a banned user's contributions which have since been blanked, after all :) Thanks. Buttons to Push Buttons (talk | contribs) 16:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Folks, now the article looks well fixed. Let's contribute to the article in a wikipedian way, without fascist or antifascist hate. Cheers to all of us. Jimmy Wright — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.77.87.210 (talk) 00:55, 21 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.77.105.252 (talk)

Falsifications done by Ethiopian nationalists

File:Two Italian soldiers survivors.jpg

The article has some falsifications, written by fanatical Ethiopian nationalists like user: Til Eulenspiegel. For example it appears that: ...Italian prisoners of war were treated very well...., but that is absolutely not true.....as can be seen in the photo of 2 Italian POWs to the right. Nearly 800 eritreans were mutilated and dozens of Italians, wounded in Adwa battle, killed with dismemberments and evirations ([2])

I think an admin should verify what do these fanatical Ethiopian nationalists, who often use IP-socks......

Indeed swiss Paul Gentizon, reporter of "Temps", wrote in 1936 that the same uncivil behavior was done with Italian POWs also in the Italian conquest war of Abyssinia. He wrote: "On the 28th, after a fighting in the region of Macallè, out of 44 Italian KIA, 25 were found evirated and mutilated. Similiar atrocities were repeated by the Ethiopians in the following months. Italian archives are rich of full and circumstantiated documentations. The top of the horror was reached in February 1936, at the expense of 74 Italian workers working in the road yard of Mai Lahlà. The killing of hundreds of wounded and prisoners, Italian and Erytrean, was the system, not the exception. "

Ethiopian nationalists like Til Eulenspiegel need to open their minds and understand that the truth cannot be erased or "managed" in Wikipedia articles! --MilwaukeeJourn. (talk) 13:12, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

As Berean Hunter said on their user talk, the page was protected to stop the reversion war that was going on and encourage those involved to discuss things on the article's talk page. For what it's worth, I have no real knowledge of the subject matter or any idea which IP's version is correct. So, I suggest that it might be a good idea to revert back to this version before the reverting began per WP:STATUSQUO and then discuss things from scratch. I also suggest posting a note on WT:ETH, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Italy and WT:ETHNIC informing those WikiProjects of this thread in the hope of finding some editors there who are knowlegable of the subject matter and who might be willing to take a look and help sort things out. The more people looking at the page, the better the chance there is of coming up with a version which has no problems with WP:UNDUE which is acceptable to both sides.

Finally, I also suggest that it might be best to try and tone down the rhetoric a bit since calling those who disagree with your viewpoint "fanatical Ethiopian nationalists" or titling the thread "Falsifications done by Ethipoan nationalists" is not really the best way to try and work through this kind of thing. You might find that it actually makes other editors less willing to work with you and support your position. It's better to stick to discussing content and how to apply relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines, then commenting on other editors. - Marchjuly (talk) 14:14, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Sincerely the first reversal was done by user Tileulenspiegel on my IP (64.134.155.25) addition with improvements ([3]) posted on 09/30/15. So per WP:STATUSQUO the good idea of reverting back should be done with the version of 64.134.155.25........and not back to the one promoted by the banned Ethiopian. But Marchjuly seems to forget ALSO that the tone was started to be offensive since the accusations of the Tileulenspeigel's socks: he accused me to be "fascist" only because I added a US journal reference about Dum Dum bullets....and I personally hate Mussolini and his regime because of the damage he has done to us Italians since 1936 (Fascists even deny their use of gas, and spent -in a stupid way, since we needed it- many millions of our Italian money to built a huge road infrastructure of which now practically nobody in Ethiopia is grateful!!) In other words, I felt offended and reacted consequently. --MilwaukeeJourn. (talk) 17:25, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

It seems that another editor has looked at the edits and returned the article back to a version they feel is stable and balanced. I only suggested going back a little further because, as I stated above, I wasn't sure which IP's version is correct. Moreover, I did not forget the other IP was being uncivil in their edit sum, but I did not realize you and 64.134.155.25 are the same editor. Even so, taking the bait and reacting to their incivility and offensive tone by resonding in a similar manner was not, in my opinion, the best course of action. - Marchjuly (talk) 21:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

@Marchjuly: FYI: MilwaukeeJourn was Brunodam, an lta who loves false informations and copyvios just for the sake of his ultranationalistic pov. --Vituzzu (talk) 13:10, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

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