Talk:István Türr

Adding more information

Note: The following discussion was started on User talk:SimonTrew and User talk:Anne McDermott and moved here as being of possible interest and use to others interested in this page. Anne McDermott (talk) 00:17, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your addition at István Türr. I just passed through to do some subbing to fix links, as part of a larger kinda mid term goal we (User:Monkap) and I have to get the Hungarian Revolution of 1848 on its feet. So far we have only done the battles but are moving on to the biogs etc and do a few along our way.

We have something you may be able to help us with: Lajos Kossuth is sometimes mentioned as Louis Kossuth, but only ever (and not just on WP but on Google) in old book references. Would you know, or could you guess, that this was his given name when he was known in the United States/America? As far as we can find out, he never went there but was known there, and I hazarded a guess it may be because the 48 revolution was not long before the [[[American Civil War]]. Like that Thomas Paine manage to set a few wheels turning both in the Colonies and then in France. Though he preferred a pub to a battlefield.

Thanks for the edit, it is good, though I might have a good go and just gnoming that article, but not to make any substantial change, just wikifying, as it is one on the list though minor from our perspective trying to get the revolution ship-shape and Bristol fashion. It's great (I mean it) that when a small change like this is made, others add to it.

Best wishes Si Trew (talk) 00:23, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for writing. I have no previous background about the Hungarian Revolution of 1848, I happened to read a book about Garibaldi and saw that one of his chief officers was a Hungarian named Türr, and became interested. There was only a very small stub about Türr in Wikipedia, and I felt he deserved much more than that so I am working on extending the article. I found a lot more than what I already put in, and I will put it in when I find the time (under very big pressure at the moment).

Kossuth did visit the US after being exiled, and was very tumultuously received both in enormous demonstrations in New York and by the US Government which received him almost like a head of state and got a big diplomatic row with Austria (there is a reference in the Daniel Webster article - Webster was Secretary of State at the time). Afterwards, however, Kossuth got into a big quarrel with the Abolitionists becuase he refused to condemn slavery (I guess he wanted to stay out of internal American politics and have the support of everybody, Norh and South, for the Hungarian cause)Anne McDermott (talk) 22:27, 19 December 2009 (UTC).

Thanks for yours. Neither did we have any knowledge of the Revolution of 1848 we just saw the appalling state of the battle articles and translated them from the Hungarian. Which is not perfect but is a start. Library resources here are are appalling, you would think a university town like Cambridge would have a decent public library, but its coverage of Hungarian history is, basically, nonexistent. I can't access the college libraries because I am not a Cambridge graduate. Of course we have some books in Hungarian but it would be nicer to have English references.

Thanks for the hints there with Kossuth. I've changed it in most places to Lajos, especially when referring to events in his life before or during the Revolution, but left it as Louis in the few American articles that use it. I'd prefer to use his correct given name if I can; I don't see the point of anglicising his name if he never used that name himself. But the titles of the books do seem to indicate he was known by the name Louis, at least in later life. Si Trew (talk) 22:37, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

By the way if you need any assistance with the Türr article e.g. translating from the Hungarian (assuming you don't speak it yourself), just ask me or User:Monkap and we'll do our best to help. Or if you'd like e.g. related Hungarian geographical articles expanded from stubs, we can do that for you. Si Trew (talk) 22:44, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Many thanks for the offer to help in transalation from Hungarian. My experience with automatic translations is very mixed, sometimes they give quite good results, in other cases they just render a complete garbage, no more comprehnsible in English than the origial was. Specifically, I would be grateful for a more comprehensible translation of the following: [1]

As I noted when I placed this among the article's external links, this is an online copy of the April 30, 1876 "Borsszem Jankó", a Hungarian illustrated magazine, with a cartoon of Türr (on p.7) and an item making fun of Türr's canal-building schemes. That much - but not more - I could make out from the automatic translation I used, and I would like to know more details. I think this is important, because Türr was later effectively put on a pedestal, one of the Pantheon of Hungarian National Heroes. I think he did some things to merit this, but still he was a human being and therefore by definition not perfect. In my view, more quoting of the criticism made of him in his lifetime helps round out the article, and I would appreciate any help you could give. Anne McDermott (talk) 23:06, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

The story beginning on p. 6 ("Jókai Mór Olaszországban") is "Mór Jókai's Italian diary" (of his travels in Italy). Sec 4. "Garibáldi", simply says that Jókai passed on Türr's regards to Garibaldi, and nnot much more. The chap on the left is of course Jókai and the fellow on the right is, I presume

It's getting late here (we're on UTC) so if you want to let us know how much you need translated (just that section?) we'll do it tomorrow, Monday.

Best wishes Si Trew (talk) 23:38, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Mind you the conversation in Sec 2 with the pope might be rather fun to translate. It's half Latin, half Hungarian, like that he can't really speak Latin but is trying his best and keeps dropping into Hungarian. There is also "toujours" twice there, which is French, and on the whole it seems like it is making fun of him at not being able to speak it properly. Whether, or how, one translates that, is quite the thing! (Fortunately I am reasonably competent in Latin and French so you have picked the right people if you do want it done!) Si Trew (talk) 23:46, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Directly, I am only interested in the part concerning Türr, though it seems that the whole thing is quite interesting. What I could make out is that Türr is presented as coming out with some kind of manifestly absurd, hare-brained and prohibitively expansive canal-building scheme, but I could not make out any clear details, and also I did not understand what role Garibaldi was supposed to play in this scheme. I see in the Mór Jókai page that he was quite an important person in this time, and on very good terms with the Hungarian government of the time - which makes me wonder if Türr was on a bit less good terms with it.

By the way, I am in no hurry to get my curiousity satisfied, anyway I will not have time in the coming few days to do anything serious, so please take your time and don't feel in any need to hurry up. I very much appreicate your help. Anne McDermott (talk) 23:59, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: Do you have any idea of what kind of paper "Borsszem Jankó" was and where it stood in the political spectrum of the time?

The translation of the Garibaldi section is roughly as follows:

“ My last stop was at Garibaldi’s. I gave him István Türr's kind regards, who had provided a map of Ferenc's sewers, which Garibaldi wanted to use in Rome. Garibaldi's plans were well advanced. He showed me a bottle of seawater, which he wanted to see in the Port of Rome, and a box of soil for the people of Maremma, who wanted to dredge it. Most of the work has already been done in the Tiber channel [or canal]; he only needs a couple of million francs to finish it. He asked me whether he could borrow five hundred million francs from Hungary, it being such a very rich country that the people bathed in milk and honey. I answered that Hungary was rich, but not that rich. If he would accept payment in raw materials – cows and bees – we might be able to muster the loan. The hero of Marsala [i.e. Garibaldi], who understands little of finance, was very happy, and ask me that when I return to Hungary I meet with cowherds and beekepers. I will do this for him, as I am part of the Hungarian Cattle-Breeders ’ Association, and a member of the Beekeepers’ Association too. ”

According to Hungarian Wikipédia, [hu:Borsszem Jankó] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help) ("Peppercorn Johnny", a diminutive folk-tale character, and thus ineffective), was a political satirical weekly, one of the most poplular in the nineteenth century. Its name alludes to being the "little guy" against the "big guys" in politics. It did not have any political stance beyond attacking the "great and the good" of the day. It is an important historical document as many famous Hungarian writers and artists supplied material for the paper.

Best wishes, season's greetings. Si Trew (talk) 16:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Many thanks for the help. Just one more question: could the word which you translated as "Ferenc's sewers" be also transalted as "The Ferenc Canal"? A canal of this name, in the southern part of Hungary, was rehabitiated by Türr, and this was his first venture in canal-building soon after he returned from exile, so I think this would be more fitting to the context. (Or perhaps the word for "sewers" was the word actually used, in a disparaging referecne to the condition of the canal in question.) Anne McDermott (talk) 18:27, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: Clearly, the serious kernel benind Mór Jókai's satire was Türr being accused of dissipating Hungarian resources on expensive engineering projects abroad. This makes sense considering that Hungary was the poorer half of the Habsburg Empire, that it was struggling to industrialize itself and that Hungarians were so intensely nationalistic. However, I have so far seen no other reference to such charges made against Türr, and I have collected quite a bit of information on him in the past two months. I would assume that after he had completed the Corinthos Canal in Greece and thereby gave a great boost to Hungarian national pride and international prestige, nobody had any further grounds for such accusations. I would be grateful if you could locate any other relevant document where such charges were made against Türr in the 1870's or 1880's. I think this would be a significant aspect to add to the Wikipedia page. Many thanks! Anne McDermott (talk) 18:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I am Monkap, SimonTrew's girlfriend. He asked me to put this link for you. Yes, the oringal is "Ferencz-csatornájat", "csatorná" is canal. It is in the Pallas encyclopedia on the internet: here (in Hungarian).

I also found an article on English WP Danube–Tisa–Danube Canal (hu:Duna–Tisza–Duna-csatorna ) (in Hungarian). There is a short section entitled [A Türr István zsilip] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help) ("The István Terr lock"), which is in the Hungarian article. The English version doesn't say much about this canal or anything about Türr. If you need help with it just shout. Happy christmas - Monkap (talk) 10:38, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

While I think of it "a map of Ferenc's sewer/drain/canal" could instead be "a plan of...". Literally the translation is "plan", but we tend to translate as "map" (e.g. plan of a battle is not the plan of attack, but a map of how it unfolded), but in this case may be better left as "plan". Si Trew (talk) 14:01, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Chatting with monkap over dinner tonight, it became obvious that the fairy tale Borsszem Jankó is Jack and the Beanstalk. (She couldn!t remember it well and got suspicious when I knew how it went.) The little chap is Jankó/Jack is drawn in the "B" of the title on the cover. Quite topical, as we have it here as a pantomime. Si Trew (talk) 23:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and to rid you of doubt, the literal translation of "csatorná" is "drain", which I then translated into "sewer", presumably badly (I'd looked for Ferenc being the name of a place or person, but not turned up anything, and seeing that e.g. the Paris sewers] are a tourist attraction it did not seem entirely unlikely.) "Drain" would stand good at least in the Fens of East Anglia where we live, e.g. the Hundred Foot Drain. Sorry for the confusion there, you are right, it is difficult to translate properly if one hasn't the context (which is partly why machine translations make such a bad job of it). Si Trew (talk) 07:43, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

The canal was called for Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor who was the emperor when it was imaugurated in 1802, Ferenc being the Hungarian version of the name. By the way, if "Borsszem Jankó" is Jack and the Beanstalk, then he is not inffective - he is a samll guy whp kills the giant. This fits with the paper considering its main purpose to be "attacking the 'great and the good' of the day. Anne McDermott (talk) 07:01, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Ferenc in Hungarian is Francis, so you are quite right there. You are also right about Jankó not being ineffective. The satire was that it joked itself that it was. For example Private Eye, a British satirical newspaper, has on the front a chap (drawn by Willie Rushton) with his sword rather bent and useless, on the masthead, and Punch (magazine) similarly had Mr. Punch of Punch and Judy, sitting in the title mast lurching in the loop of the P. So you are quite right on all counts but I hope that provides a little more context. Si Trew (talk) 08:04, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

BTW Punch magazine had he subtitle "Or the London Charivari". In France a similar paper was called Charivari, which I guess translated means the to-and-fro. The plot thins. I have not loked this up, this is just off the top of my head, so I am probably wrong in some details, just trzing to help you follow up, and if I am wrong I will gladly say so. The Charivari article does not mention it, so I will check French wikipedia, but save my comments first Si Trew (talk) 08:14, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

It is here on English WP Le Charivari. The French version is better. ˘˘˘˘

Translation of the French lead is roughly this:

Le Charivari was Founded in 1832, in the reign of [[[Louis Phillippe]] (check link), by the republican journalist, Charles Phippon. Very quickly it became a medium of communication for the Opposition, in the same style as the weekly paper "La Caricature",which started in 1830. The laws of september 1835 (check this) made things harsh for those under the 1833 and 1834 publicationss (this does not make sense to me), and it led to a burst of new publications, like "La Gazette"", "The Quotidienne", the "Tribune" and after all the "Charivari".

(Not sure here whether to translate "le" to "the". None of them is linked. Quotidienne means daily)

The French aricle has mcuh more in it than the English. I wil translate it if it is useful to you. Si Trew (talk) 08:49, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

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