Talk:Istanbul/Archive 11

Archive 5

←

Archive 9

Archive 10

Archive 11

Annual Snowfall

Good morning everyone. I'd like to raise awareness about an issue regarding the average snowfall in Istanbul. In the last few days I tried to find this data and came across a bazillion sources talking about 4.9 cm of annual snowfall, and only one result claming 82 cm, the Italian study from Nimbus that is used as reference in this page. The Italian study doesn't link to any source and doesn't even mention where this claim comes from. For those who don't speak Italian: in the "Metodology" section of the study, they do say that the data is computed from METARS of airports of the cities they are evaluating and correctly state that you cannot get snow depth values from METARS. They do not mention where the data about the snow depth is from, then. The study in question is "sketchy" to say the least, then. Given that all other sources point to 4.9 cm/year, that the Turkish government itself says, literally, "Although there is not frequent snowfall due to high humidity, there is litte snowfall in the period between December and March", that the average temperatures during winter are not cold, and that the climate classification of the province of Istanbul (Cfa, Cfb, Csa) paints a picture of a moist yet not regularly snowy place, I strongly believe what's written in the Italian study from Nimbus is a gross error. If you are ok with that, I'd like to change the paragraph about snowfall to something more realistic and backed by other studies.

Winterfell98 (talk) 09:17, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Winterfell98: and thanks for your work regarding the page.

I was the one who introduced the Nimbus data, and while I will concede that while the study isn't perfect (and furthermore requires some math to reach the data I've provided, which is never a good sign), the 4.9 cm/year value is downright impossible. This is very well illustrated by the amount of snowy days, where sources point to 8-16 days of snowfall (not snow cover) for Istanbul, regardless of microclimate. With a 4.9 cm/year snowfall value, this would mean less than 1 cm per day. Compare that to the precipitation days/precipitation amount ratio, and you should get around 6mm per precip day. Using the 10:1 rainfall to snowfall ratio (I know it's not perfect, but it is standard procedure), this would give you around 27cm of snow in January alone. Nevertheless, all of what I did in this reply up to this point verges on "common sense" editing/OR, so if you can provide a reliable source (preferably here, and one that has a better methodology than the Nimbus data) that contradicts this information I'm ready to concede.

Another point, the study used METARs to calculate snowfall and discusses how it is impossible to determine snow depth (Therefore, it has to be assumed that the data on snowfall is extracted from average snowfall rates associated with METARs, similar to Meteoblue). The two are different things, and most cities in Cxx zones have much higher snowfall than snow depth. Even with that, if you still think: "Why does this city with relatively mild winters have almost Dxx amounts of snow?" The answer is lake-effect snow (or I guess sea?-effect snow). Istanbul gets around one lake-effect blizzard per year (it's actually getting one right-now, see here) and these usually result in 1-2 feet of snowfall (not snow depth). Uness232 (talk) 11:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Uness232:.

Thank you for your quick reply. 4.9 cm looks too small a value to me too, but that's what's reported on most other websites. One website in particular, that I am going to write below, talks about 8 cm, and it is the one that gives the highest value among the dozens of website I have consulted. The biggest problem I have with the study from Nimbus is that no other study in the world in English, French or Italian mentions anything even remotely close to what they claim. They also claim 15 snowy days, but reading the metodology section they say they consider any day with at least one METAR mentioning snow as a snowy day. For instance, a day in which one METAR reports -BLSN gets counted as a snowy day, whereas in reality only a few snowflakes have been brought over the airport by wind for less than an hour. From other sources it looks like real snowy conditions exist on average of 1.6 days a year, with a few more days of rain and snow together. In the same website where they claim 8 cm per year, graphs about the probability of precipitation are given, and even during winter the probability of rain is hugely higer than the probability of snow: only a tiny percentage of all precpitation falls on the city as snow. The website is this: [1]. They claim their data comes from NASA's MERRA 2 Analysis, and how accurate that is on snowfall I would not know. I also tried to contact the Turkey State Meteorological Service but to no avail (They replied in Turkish telling me to call a telephone number). It would be nice to have someone who can speak Turkish to look into the matter and look for some data in Turkish academic literature.

Winterfell98 (talk) 09:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Before getting into the data on weatherspark, I want to say that as someone who knows Turkish, there isn't much academic literature surrounding snowfall in Istanbul, or at least not concerning its averages. While snow depth is recorded in every Turkish airport (see here for today's data, or here for normals), snowfall is not documented. Therefore, the most reliable way to estimate snowfall is through METAR.

You could criticize the way the study uses METAR, but with a look at what these METARs are, you can clearly see that even if some METARs were removed from the criteria for snow, the value would still be much higher than 1.6 days.

As for weatherspark, it tends to be very innacurate for Istanbul. Compare, for example, the precipitation normals on weatherspark with those from MGM, and you will definitely understand what I'm talking about. Furthermore, as most of the snow in Istanbul falls in the form of heavy convective showers, non-convective allowing models (which includes MERRA 2) tend to massively underestimate the amount of snow that actually falls on the city (see here for a much higher resolution model making the same mistake), making the data doubly unreliable.

I am, however, curious about the websites and studies that claim 4.9 cm/year. If you can link some I'd very much appreciate it. Uness232 (talk) 11:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

@Uness232:,

It's a pity we don't have much data from Turkish literature. As an aeroplane pilot myself I know how inaccurate METARs can get and it's a real struggle to get some reliable data from those. The websites claiming 4.9 do so citing "Meteoroloji Genel Müdürlüğü" as the source, but without reference to any specific paper, for example: [2], that claims 2.4 cm in January, 1.5 in February, 0.3 in March, 0.7 in December. Many website use this data, too. I did find another website that states something different: the claimed total snowfall is 21.3 cm, but without citing any source. It's this one: [3]. Let me know if you are able to find any Turkish source that confirms any of these claims, if some websites are citing Meteoroloji Genel Müdürlüğü as the source there probably is some official paper buried somewhere but alas I'm anable to read it.

Winterfell98 (talk) 19:39, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Weather Atlas' data on precipitation seems, let's say, very sketchy at best, as it seems to cut the total amount of precipitation Istanbul gets to half. Nowhere in MGM's website can you find information that shows Istanbul with a yearly precipitation of 300-400 mm, because beyond being completely out of the 600-1200 mm range we expect from Istanbul, a place that averages 300 mm a year with these temperatures would be a semi-arid steppe, not a deciduous forest. Also keep in mind that some websites take liquid-equivalent snowfall (in mm, completely different statistic) and present it as accumulated snowfall. Seeing that Weather Atlas is using mm to chart snow, I would not be surprised if that is exactly what they are doing.

On WWO, the data seems to be poorly organized, but what I can make out of it is still an anomaly to what we would expect. For example, for January 2017, when at least a foot of snow was recorded everywhere in Istanbul (mostly in two days, see here and here), WWO seems to indicate that only 15 cm of snow was recorded during the entire month, when basically all of Istanbul recorded more in these two days.

I understand your concern about METARs. However, it still seems (to me at least) that it is the most reliable way to estimate Istanbul's snowfall. If you so wish, we can remove the source from the climate tables to make it clear that the numbers may not be as accurate as measurements, but I think the paragraph should stay. Uness232 (talk) 21:37, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

@Uness232:. Yeah, that the data was given in liquid equivalent crossed my mind too at first, but it cannot be because other websites citing the (in)famous 4.9 cm do so in centrimetres. It looks like we are not the only ones having difficulties establishing this data, for example this [4] website exclusively dedicated to snowfalls writes: "the annual snowfall depth in the city ranges between 1.93 inches (49 millimetres) and 24 inches (600 millimetres) after 7.1 snowfall days". Personally, given the total chaos and seemingly random numbers everyone is claiming about this subject, I would rephrase the paragraph to something less peremptory, something like: "According to a study, in the area of the airport an average of 60 cms of snow fall each year. The amount varies between different years and different areas of the city, with areas exposed to the North experiencing greater amounts than those exposed to the south (etc etc, insert here the sea effect snow)". This way we are not stating anything wrong nor misleading and we are not directly using the various other sources you don't think are realiable. What do you think? - Winterfell98 (talk) 15:50, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

That makes a lot of sense. I will be removing the snowfall amount data from the climate table, but as I am very busy these days, I would appreciate if you would alter the prose to your liking. Thanks for this, I'm very pleased to see this type of discussion on here (rare as that is on this site). Uness232 (talk) 17:20, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

@Uness232:. Sure, I can do it! I only need permission to modify the page as it's semi-protected. How do I go about that? Discussing topics with people who know what they are saying certainly is a pleasure :-)!

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Istanbul logo.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:06, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Flag blatantly wrong?

The flag used in the article is not the official flag of Istanbul based on any ordinance or law I could find. It is rather the logo of the municipality, the authority providing local services, on its color-accurate background. This is used as a flag of the municipality, not the city. To my knowledge, no Turkish city has a coat of arms or a flag. The governorships and municipalities have their own logos and flags derived from said logos, but they represent governmental entities, not the city itself. Gwro (talk) 19:40, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Albanian name

@Future Perfect at Sunrise I disagree. The name is relevant because Albanians have historically been inhabiting this city and form a significant minority nowadays. And in fact names can me put into the name section when a significant minority lives there. I wonder why this little sentence at the end of the name box bothers you? AlexBachmann (talk) 22:13, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Two reasons. One, this is a summary of the main article, which goes into detail on many names in many languages. The most common historical languages in the city (Turkish and Greek) are covered here, as it is a summary; Istanbul used to be one of the most ethnically diverse cities in Europe and West Asia, we could have put Armenian, Ladino, and Slavic names too, but we keep that for the article itself. Two, you could have had a better argument about this if the Albanian name was not a variant of 'stin poli', already covered in the article. Uness232 (talk) 19:53, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I have to disagree. Considering the historical significance of the Albanians in Turkey and Istanbul that can not be compared to Slavs or other ethnicities, I suggest leaving the Albanian name. Even Arnavutköy testifies of that significance. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:00, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

The issue is how diverse Istanbul was. If we were to name all ethnicities who've had a major impact on Istanbul, even if we did not include Slavic peoples, for example, the section would become incredibly bloated. Istanbul was a (if not the ) center of Western Armenian culture; in fact, as far as I know, standard Western Armenian is based on the Istanbul dialect. Along with Thessaloniki, Judaeo-Spanish was a major language in Istanbul, and some amount of Ladino heritage still lives on in the city despite discriminatory measures; unlike in Thessaloniki, where the Nazis genocided the Jewish population. Why Albanian and not these? The reason we're limiting this is not because of any underestimation of Albanian heritage in the city; it is rather to not underestimate the sheer diversity of different heritage(s). Uness232 (talk) 20:15, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

In addition to this, the main reason why we shouldn't be treating any of these names – independently of how many of them there are – is that assessing the historical significance of some group is not what mentioning or not mentioning a name is for. This is a very common error of judgment among Wikipedia editors, but it's still a POV trap. Just get rid of the idea that the treatment of placenames is a place in an article where we should symbolically "acknowledge" this or that group. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:29, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Ideally, yes, but intuitively people think of place-names as a good index for representation, it seems. It makes sense too; what easier way to say "my people lived here" then to demonstrate by naming convention.

(I do agree with you on everything else obviously, but I understand why @AlexBachmann and so many other users keep wanting to make a change like this, simply saying "decouple this idea with that one" when these ideas are intuitively intertwined won't work, I don't think.) Uness232 (talk) 20:42, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Then, what is the name section for, @Future Perfect at Sunrise? What about cities in Albania? Gjirokastër, Himarë, etc. have the Greek name in the lead and section because of the Greek minority. As for @Uness232, all ethnicities you've listed do not make up such a significant minority nowadays as the Albanians and probably historically. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:42, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Nowadays, maybe (although we would need to discount Kurdish and Arab folk if we are to think of all ethnicities). Historically, no. Uness232 (talk) 20:48, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I am not saying Albanian influenced Istanbul the most (that would be a WP:OR and WP:NPOV statement), however enough, to include the name. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:54, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

And I’m saying that – because Istanbul was so diverse – we just can not include these (admittedly influential) names in the summary form of this article, rather than the article itself. That sets up a bad precedent, and would surely result in a bloated section. Uness232 (talk) 21:00, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2023

Remove the following templates: Turkey topics, Eurovision Song Contest, and ABU TV Song Festival. None of these template links to this page, or any other city for that matter. 2600:8800:590E:BB00:40AE:9484:2F76:7F87 (talk) 20:44, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done AnnaMankad (talk) 02:54, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Edit request on 07.06.2023

Very first sentence about the foundation of the city is wrong. There is solid evidence people were living in the region long before the given date, and written records about its foundation should be a secondary source. In current configuration, it implies there were no settlements before, which is simply wrong. It at least requires a callback to history section.

pls read history section.Moxy- 00:14, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

It says there were settlements that got destroyed by rising sea levels, which doesn't really make sense since sea level rise doesn't happen immediately, and there is plenty of time to move the settlement. But even if we assume they packed up and left completely, there was still Lygos, which was there after the sea level rise, and before the mentioned foundation. Again, it is misleading to show the foundation date on current form. It indicates there was nothing substantial before it, which is wrong. Special:Contributions/ ([[User talk:|talk]]) 14:53, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Untitled

See I am a student, I don't have any job and I am from a middle class family. If I ask my parents for 25 rs to help you they will never give me that. So please understand and take my Sorry 😔. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.108.161.12 (talk) 10:48, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Why is Constantinople and Istanbul articles separate?

See Talk:Constantinople#Starting_again,_more_organized_this_time. Beshogur (talk) 10:06, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

The Constantinople article is more of a historical article, but I think the main reason is so people can properly cite whichever time period is relevant to their article. For example, if you were to talk about Turkey's involvement in a war after 1922, and they had a treaty at their capital, then you would cite Istanbul Istanbul. If you were making an article about chariot racing and wanted to mention the riots in Constantinople after a close race, then you would cite Constantinople. Hope this helped. Gurblet (talk) 22:48, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 October 2023

2A01:73C0:501:9368:5853:2DFF:FE8F:BAAC (talk) 16:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Additionally, this is the article for Istanbul, but your edit request was for the Constantinople article, which isn't protected. You should be able to directly edit that article. Liu1126 (talk) 16:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

most visited tourist destination

London has 30m visitors a year. Venice is the same. Istanbul is 20m. Yet the figures in this article say that Istanbul is the most-visited in the world, after London and Dubai? New York City, Paris, Rome, London, Venice all have more visitors. 89.197.164.126 (talk) 16:15, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Venice doesn't have more visitors than Istanbul, none of the Italian cities in Top 10. Also, this was made according to the new lists. 85.103.228.167 (talk) 16:41, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi,

If there are reliable sources regarding the statistics you mentioned, let's take action accordingly. Let's revise or remove the information about Istanbul through source comparison. Adem (talk) 13:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Incomplete climate update

Uness232 I've replaced the in-use reference definition you deleted in your recent edit. Was it your intention to completely remove that reference? You also added an invocation of a reference named "WeatherAtlas", but that reference is not defined. I've removed that reference since it adds the topic to an error tracking category. Since your changes are dependent on this reference, you probably want to replace it correctly. -- Mikeblas (talk) 00:44, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

@Mikeblas Sorry, this is just mistake on my part. I copied the weatherbox sources from the Climate of Istanbul page (since there is a new one now); I should have kept the reference definitions in mind. The climate update is complete, however. Uness232 (talk) 02:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the fix! When copying within Wikipedia, make sure you properly attribute the content that you're copying. You can read more at Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. -- Mikeblas (talk) 23:25, 3 February 2024 (UTC)