Talk:Israeli citizenship law/Archive 1

Archive 1

Large part of this article is missing

This article leaves out the Israeli distinction between citizenship and nationality (a distinction not made in other nations). Loosely, all who live permanently in Israel have citizenship, but only those covered by the "Law of Return" have nationality. Amongst many other disadvantages, those without nationality cannot use "national" lands, which cover 93% of the State of Israel.

Some of the information can be found here[1] or[2] .............. In its conclusions, CERD [Geneva's UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination] said it would welcome receiving more information on how the State party envisages the development of the national identity of all its citizens. Some 13 NGOs ................ argued the existence of a fundamental system-wide commitment to an exclusive nationality status conveying special rights for Jewish nationals. Citizenship and nationality are two separate and distinct classifications within a two-tiered structure of civil status in Israel, it added. The actual 'Law of Citizenship' [ezrahut], when combined with other laws, ensures special rights and privileges conveyed only to 'Jewish nationals,' and provide the institutional basis for material discrimination against the indigenous Palestinian-Arab people in all areas under Israel's jurisdiction and effective control. The NGO report also said that State institutions and courts have rejected petitions to recognize an 'Israeli nationality.' The Committee said it regretted that many of the questions sent in advance to the [Israeli delegation] remained unanswered, and that, despite previous requests, the report has not provided any information on the Occupied Palestinian Territories, due to the position of the State party that [ICERD] does not apply to these Territories. The Committee also expressed concern about the denial of the right of many Palestinians to return and repossess their land in Israel, adding that CERD reiterates its view expressed in its previous concluding observations on [the refugee] issue and urges the State party to assure equality in the right to return to one's country and in the possession of property. The return of Palestinian refuges who fled or were expelled from their homes during the conflict arising from the 1948 creation of the state of Israel remains the main red line for most Israelis, who declare it to be unfeasible and unthinkable, and likely to result in an immediate war. Meanwhile, Israeli foreign minister Tzippi Livni recently reiterated the position put to the UN General Assembly in September 2000 by former foreign minister Shlomo Ben Ami that Palestinian refugees can return only to a future state of Palestine, but not to their former homes and properties. International legal experts say that the right of Palestinian refugees to return can be based more firmly on the UN's 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights, rather than on the UN General Assembly's multi-part resolution 194, often called the Right to Return resolution. Both these documents were adopted in December 1948. PalestineRemembered 14:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This does not appear correct.

First, everyone (well, almost everyone) has a nationality, the question is which one. So I assume you mean Jewish nationality.

Second, I doubt there are no other countries that have no such concept. I know the old Soviet Union had it; are you sure the no-one does anymore? In this context, one should mention the Jordanian Law:

"Anyone may become a citizen of Jordan, unless he is a Jew". So they avoid making a distinction by banning Jews altogether! Nor are they the only ones. When do you think Jews will be allowed to return to Arabia? Or even Jenin?

Thirdly, you imply that Arabs are not allowed in 93% of Israel, which is rediculous, or ay least do not live there, which is unlikely.

In this context, one might mention the territories, where Arab settlement is open, while Jewish settlement is severely restricted in Judea and Samaria, and completely banned in Gaza. Although perhaps that is citizenship.

84.228.25.197 (talk) 09:57, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The Law of Return is an immigration law. It determines preferences in accepting immigrants into Israel. Nearly all countries have such laws, but criteria varies among countries. Israel defines Jewish origins as the major criterion (even when the immigrant him/herself is not Jewish). There is one single type of Israeli citizenship. There is also a status of "permanent resident" for people who live in Israel but do not wish to become citizens. A "permanent resident" enjoys all rights and bears all duties, but he cannot vote to the parliament nor have an Israeli passport. The population registry includes information about "nationality" (or perhaps a better translation would be "ethnicity"). The major attributions given are "Jewish", "Arab", "Druze", "Circassian" and there are several others. This definition shouldn't affect the way the citizen is treated by the authorities, and it should be used for statistical surveys, or in order to determine whether a citizen is entitled to an exemption from army service etc. In practice, this attribution is sometimes misused. New ID cards don't show this attribution anymore, but state's officials can see it, if they have access to the population registry. DrorK (talk) 23:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The statement that only Israel differentiates between nationality and citizenship is wrong. In the UK, people are citizens of the UK (there is no such nationality as "UKean") but their nationality is Scottish, Welsh, Irish or English. I am sure there are other places like that (USSR has been mentioned - what about, for example, First Nation people in Canada whose citizenship is Canada but who are nationals of their respective First Nation etc), but one example (UK) is enough to render the statement ("a distinction not made in other nations") incorrect. 86.11.187.213 (talk) 13:34, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I came here looking for an explanation of the differences between Israeli citizenship and Israeli nationality and found this article to be a bit of a disappointment, as it appears to think that Israeli Nationality and Israeli citizenship are the same thing, when it's my understanding that they are different things, with nationality having a connection to the Law of Return. Then I read this talk page and it gets even more confusing, with Israeli citizenship, Israeli nationality and then "84.228.25.197" mentions "Jewish nationality". I still believe that there is a difference between Israeli citizenship and Israeli nationality and I wonder if someone with more knowledge about this issue than I possess could write something which explains the situation in clear terms. --Theresonator (talk) 20:25, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Military

Military service is legally mandatory for virtually all of Israel's citizens and residents although various exemptions can be granted. Certain ethnic groups, such as Arab Israelis, have received a blanket exemption.

Arab Israelis are about 20% of the population, so "virtually all" means about 80%? To me, this is not at all "virtually all". It's even less, because ultra-orthodox Jews also have a kind of blanket exemption (technically, it is not the same as the exemption given to Arabs, because ultra-orthodox is not an officially recognized minority group, but the result is the same - nearly all of them are exempted). So you are right, if you read the "fine print" of the law and regulations, and if you check the implementation, it is not "virtually all". DrorK (talk) 22:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Passports

Actually, even after getting citizenship, you have to wait a year to get a passport. Instead, you get a "T'udat Ma'avar (Laizez-Passe). Try getting someone to honor it! 84.228.25.197 (talk) 10:00, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, most immigrants can use their former-country's passport during that year. You are also not expected to leave the country so soon after naturalization, especially as you are entitled to special grants (if you immigrate under the terms of the Law of Return), and you are supposed to spend them on getting well-established in Israel. DrorK (talk) 22:40, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Cancellation of citizenships

The third item was poorly written, required a re-write. I'll give it a try. Here is what it looked like:

• If the person's citizenship was given to him/her on the basis of false information. The revocation of a citizenship which was given based on false information which was handed in in order to obtain it might apply even to the citizenships of the children of person.

Here is my proposition. I feel confident enough about its accuracy to put it online:

• If the person's citizenship was given to him/her on the basis of false information. In such a case, the revocation might apply even to the citizenship of the person's children.

Oclupak (talk) 15:19, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Restrictions by certain countries of origin per 2003 law

The page at present doesn't seem to take into account the effect of the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law on an Israel citizen's or permanent resident's spouse who comes from the places prohibited by the latter law. That page apparently also doesn't relate to the possible eligibility of said spouse for residency status. -- Deborahjay (talk) 10:55, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Suggested improvement to the article

I was trying to find whether there was any map / numbers for the estimated population of eligible jewish immigrants per country, e.g. 500 thousand for France, 200 thousand for Germany etc. I think it would add a lot to the article to have some visualization for how many potential Jewish immigrants there might be, and how that relates to the current population of Israel. --Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 21:29, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Nationality law of 1952

Why is there no text in this article about Israel's original 1952 nationality law? ImTheIP (talk) 10:03, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Israeli Nationality Law 2018

I came here while looking for the 2018 Nationality Law. Shouldn't there be a link, reference or disambiguation so people can find that? Keith McClary (talk) 16:58, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

That's the nation-state law.Icewhiz (talk) 18:36, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Recent edits

I've been updating this article for close to two weeks, but now I think I'll take a long break. I think the article is much more complete now than it was previously (humblebrag :)). There are still lots and lots of details missing, such as over the 21st century amendments and their controversies. And badly phrased paragraphs. There is also the question on how to organize the three articles Israeli nationality law, Law of Return and Who is a Jew? because there is a lot of overlap. Hope more people want to collaborate on the article! ImTheIP (talk) 17:48, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 19 December 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 15:15, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

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Israeli nationality law → Israeli citizenship law – Request to change the page name from "Israeli nationality law" to "Israeli citizenship law", because the word "חוק האזרחות" in Hebrew translates to citizenship law. In Israel nationality (לאום) more defined and understood as being a Jew or Arab, and citizenship is being Israeli. Hence the word citizenship should be used as it is officially termed and called. דוד אהרון 8 (talk) 07:48, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support. I see approx. equal use in my check for "nationality law" and "citizenship law" in English for the Israeli law, and it seems more recent sources are favoring "citizenship law". The direct translation is citizenship, and the current name is confusing in relation to Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People (known as the "nationality bill") which is a non-citizenship bill. Icewhiz (talk) 08:02, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support. More natural English title. Rreagan007 (talk) 23:56, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 October 2021

There are a few issues with the 'Eligibility of non-Orthodox Jews' section.

1. This sentence should be added after the second sentence: On 1 March 2021, the [[Supreme Court of Israel]] ruled converts into non-Orthodox streams are eligible for citizenship.<ref>{{cite news |last1=Kingsley |first1=Patrick |title=Israeli Court Says Converts to Non-Orthodox Judaism Can Claim Citizenship |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/01/world/middleeast/israel-jewish-converts-citizenship.html |access-date=16 October 2021 |work=The New York Times |date=1 March 2021}}</ref>

Added this detail in rephrased.

2. The sentence about Messianic Judaism should be deleted. As the article on Messianic Judaism states, it is a stream of Christianity, and whether they are recognised as Jewish for the purposes of the Law of Return is no more relevant than whether Catholics are recognised.

One of the citations given for that sentence references a 1989 Supreme Court case answering the question definitively. Given the fact that the question was significant enough for the highest court to address it and that this article is about Israeli law on the subject, it is entirely relevant to leave this detail in.

3. The title is misleading, and should be renamed to 'Recognition of a person as Jewish' or similar. The section is about recognition by Orthodox Judaism of whether a person is Jewish, rather than the eligibility of non-Orthodox Jews. There are many non-Orthodox Jews who are eligible under the Law of Return. Portwalrus (talk) 01:46, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Your suggested title would itself be misleading since the article you linked to in the first section shows an example of Jews who aren't recognized by the Chief Rabbinate becoming eligible under Israeli law. Horserice (talk) 22:33, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

The section is about who is recognised as Jewish for the purposes of the law of return, and primarily whether someone who is not recognised by the Chief Rabbinate as Jewish may be recognised for the purposes of the law. It is not about whether or not non-Orthodox Jews generally are eligible. My suggested title is more accurate. In any case, I see point #2 as the more important one. The reference to Messianic Judaism should be deleted, or alternatively, a further explanation should be given to its relevance to the article. Portwalrus (talk) 11:20, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Amended the subsection title to mention recognition instead of eligibility and added mentions of the Chief Rabbinate and Supreme Court pointing out that they made specific statements ruling out Messianic Jews. It might seem obvious that they're Christians to someone who is familiar with Israeli law or Judaism, but probably not to a casual reader. Maybe what's there now can be a good middle ground for what to include here.Horserice (talk) 22:27, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, I am happy with this as a middle ground. Portwalrus (talk) 14:03, 25 October 2021 (UTC)