Talk:Islamic clothing/Archive 1

Problems with this article: In general, bias. In the first sentence is the phrase, "...it was originally implemented by Allah..." This obviously implies that the Islamic conception of God is valid, or indeed that any deity exists. This is a striking example of bias. Second, the sentence, "The veil re-emerged as a topic of conversation in the 1990s when there was a legitimate concern regarding potential western infiltration of Muslim practices in Islamic countries". This sentence claims that concern about western influences in Islamic countries is "legitimate". That is clearly a slanted argument--the author is making a value judgement regarding the interaction between two cultures, and implicitly making the claim that "cultural purity" is somehow being "violated". Someone please correct these. I do not do so myself, as this should be a consensus agreement, I suppose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibycusreggio (talk • contribs) 13:35, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I moved things around a lot and added some new material. Zora 09:07, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Also, a possible problem I noticed under the section on women's views of hijab. Under pro-hijab, it quoted Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It's not the correctness of the quote, but the following sentence, which states that she is for women wearing hijab. It's well known that she is critical of Islam and its tenets, so I don't think that is correct.. PriestessKikyo1 08:34, 13 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PriestessKikyo1 (talk • contribs)

combining articles=

The articles hijab and islamic clothing should not be joined as hijab is for women and hijab is compulsory and islamic clothing is tradtional and not really law and is a seperate topic in its own right like english clothing and english church dressing 13 October 2005 BismillahirRahmanirRaheem, asSalaamu 'alaa manit-taba'al Hudaa. In the name of Allah, Lord of Mercy, Giver of Mercy, Peace to all those who follow guidance. As there necessitated a new article. This is the first time I have browsed the Islam section of Wikipedia, and it seems probably not the last. Thanks to all the folks who got this started, and to Allah, The Most Glorious, Most Exalted. If there are any questions, comments or suggestions I can be reached at mustafahammouda at yahoo dot com. I will be doing more editing as time allows, insha'Allah.

About the ablutions... I linked to another page.

Muslim has nothing to do with ablutions, so I removed the link. Dry ablutions are covered in Wudu, which is already linked to this article. Zora 02:13, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

13 October 2005

To Zora: Ok, since I can't figure out how to drop a message on you directly, as you neatly did to me, insha'Allah, you will read this. While it's tempting to just revert the whole thing back to the state it was in at my last edit, it would be pointless and silly to start something like that, as you would clearly just revert it back again. Since editing this section I have had the chance to read through the Articles and Discussions affiliated with other Islamic topics, in particular, Abu Bakr. It would seem that there are some ettiquetes and guidelines I was not altogether aware of. So as far as POV issues go, a number of the changes I made were very slanted, but cerrtainly what is there now is dripping with bias. While you may not agree with it, the niqaab is obligatory on Muslims, and I posted extensive documentation in this regard. I'm curious to know if you actually read the haadeeth posted, as if you do they explain those verses of the Qur'an which you refer to in the beginning. If anyone would like to dispute this, just bring the evidence. The article state that abaya and hijab (by which, I assume, khimar is meant) are required, and the niqaab is optional, without giving any evidence for what amounts to a fatwa, something neither of us is qualified to give.

So, while my edits were slanted, they were my attempts to compensate for the fact that pretty much the entire article is thoroughly POV in a manner that is not even particularly subtle. I find some of the material contained in this article downright offensive. In addition, a number of assertions are made throughout the text which receive no supporting evidence of any kind. If you are going to define Islamic Clothing, it obviously has to be defined as according to Islamic Law, otherwise it is just clothing that Muslims wear. If you are going to determine Islamic Law, you must go to the Qur'an _and_ Sunnah, something which Muslims are good at acknowledging, not as good at adhering to. Obviously, I am not an unbiased observer to these proceedings. Neither, however, are you or anyone who is human. I can, though, do my best to write objectively, and from a thoroughly legalistic frame of reference, and insha'Allah I will do this in whatever I post in the future. I intend to go through this article more systematically, and raise my concerns issue by issue, and post recommendations here for discussion before perorming any actual edits. For now though, I would very much appreciate it if you would remove the section entitled "Extreme versions of women's modest dress", and the paragraph preceding it, until such time as less disparaging and prejudicial topic headings and content can be agreed upon.

Thank you,

Mustafa Hammouda mustafa_h

"While you may not agree with it, the niqaab is obligatory on Muslims", that is where you go wrong. As you say this is about the various interpretations of sharia and so it must be viewed from that framework. It is clear to me that niqab is not the only view, and, it does tend to be minority -- especially in practice. There's the whole wajib vs. sunnah debate and how many believe it was only incumbent upon the wives of the prophet. There is variance among opinions, there is not "one Islamic law" in the pragmatic sense which we address. I do somewhat agree with you that "extreme forms" might not be a good way to characterize it but you made this article an argument for why to wear niqab... and, that is not what an encyclopedia does. We are not a debate forum on what should a pious Muslim lady wear. Also, you're correct that khimar should replace hijab in that sense. gren グレン 01:13, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

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Dear Mustafa,

Not all Muslims recognize Qur'an and Sunnah -- some are Qur'an Alone Muslims. Those Muslims who do see the Sunnah, as recorded in the hadith, as useful, do not agree on the use to be made of it. There are millions of Muslims who think that "modest by the standards of the society in which I'm living" is good enough. Extreme or strict hijab is practiced by a minority of Muslims. You can't just say, as if you were a new prophet, that this is the CORRECT way and the other Muslims have it wrong. If you try to impose your POV on the article, other editors will intervene.

We can change the word "extreme" -- how about "strict"? Zora 03:32, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Harprit's version

Harprit your version is completely unnaccetable because of its copyright. Islam Q&A's license states "Permission is granted to all to take material from this site, subject to the following two conditions: (1) Material used must be attributed to www.islam-qa.com , (2) Material must be reproduced faithfully and without alteration or omission. And Allaah is the Source of strength." We cannot follow this license because wikipedia demands that derrivative works are allowed. We will not reproduce anything that needs to be full reproduced to not violate the copyright holder's legal rights. Your version does this. Please stop now because on this article this is not a POV war, this is a matter of legality which you are in violation of. Please stop taking the material from that site. You may write in your own words citing them and then users can come to consensus on what is proper there, however even if your version was more NPOV we could not use it. Thanks gren グレン 07:59, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Moved huge chunks to Hijab

There was a lot of duplication of material between here and the article on hijab. Being very bold, I moved all discussion of everyday modest dress to Hijab and left this article exclusively for Muslim religious dress -- which was the original intent, as I recall (I started the article). Perhaps we can change the title back? Zora 05:52, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

And what about Albania and Bosnia?

People in these European countries are predominately muslim, but most people (including women) living on the dress in a typical Western way — and the same goes for Kosovo. So why not cite these cases?--MaGioZal 01:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Sudanese Women Wear

What would a Sudanese Arab Muslim woman wear? More percise, what would a teen where? I'm writing a story, and I can't find it anywhere on the web. (Though, the adult woman and man wear could come in handy later) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TwistedRed (talk • contribs) 20:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

POV check/cite sources

I added a "needs citations" and "needs POV check" for the section "How to dress properly for prayer". The section title suggests it may not be NPOV (the word "properly" has subtle implications). A "how-to" section (of dubious merit in an encyclopedia anyway) should only be used for things that are set in stone, and (although I'm no expert) these rules may vary widely among mosques. For all I know, the section could be entirely fine, although I think the title needs work and the section definitely needs more citations. Benandorsqueaks 06:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Teens, huh?

Western clothes mangled into their own fashion?

That's how it was when I saw them (*teens) -in-person- while I was visiting Jordan.

I need to add this caveat first - Jordan - is a more liberal & West-ish society. It may possibly be different (probably is) in Sudan.

[ If someone can pop this up to the right spot, indented, I'm partly at a loss as to how to do it, and lazy. Mostly lazy. ]

Kyanwan 21:49, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

No, but yes, but ... definitely NO.

I disagree that it should be merged. In culture, there IS the concept of "hijab", or modesty, HOWEVER - when you hear the word "hijab", you should immediately first draw your attention to the most common usage of the word: the scarf.

The clothing aspect, is the whole area of clothing. It should be noted that it is referred to as "hijab"/modesty, however - I'd say - for our English speaking audience - it's more appropriately kept separate. For learning, at least.

If it were the Arabic version, then sure - why not - combine them.

It's like people say - certain words in Arabic just don't exist in English. This, probably is one of them. Convert the subject to English & make it more understandable.

We already have enough misunderstanding in the world in regard to Islam. There's no need for us to ADD to the confusion.

Kyanwan 21:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree to disagree with the merger.Bless sins (talk) 18:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Next to useless

I looked up this article hoping to learn something about clothing in Islam-dominant cultures (just what is the difference between a bhurka and a hijab?) and all I found was not much more than a few quotes from religious texts.

Wikipedia is not the place for religious texts, Islamic, Christian, Jewish or anything else. Anyone interested can look up the Qur'an.

Some information on the topic would be more appropriate, otherwise delete the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Conollyb (talk • contribs) 21:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

This article really needs to ber done again, top to bottom. What little is on this page is relegious quotes. The only links and references are about women wearing the veil. --90.211.79.247 (talk) 19:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Colgate University Editing Project

Hi, my name is Carl Eckert. I am a student from Colgate University and am conducting an editing and research project concerning this article along with two other students. Our goals are to intelligently enhance the educational content and overall clarity of the article to create a better learning experience for all potential readers. We will be working on this project and this article for the next two to three weeks. We hope you appreciate our input and if not, let us know. Thanks.

Hi, my name is Samantha Berlin. I am a student from Colgate University and I am working on editing the page regarding Islam and clothing based on information I have learned in my Women in Islam class this semester. We want to provide the masses with the most accurate and relevant information regarding Islam and clothing, and hope to further refine the information provided. I also hope you appreciate our input, and let us know if you have any concerns or comments with our edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sberlin1993 (talk • contribs) 16:07, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi, my name is Katie Fell. I am currently a Junior at Colgate University and am enrolled in a class called Women in Islam, in which we are conducting a final editing and research project concerning this article. Given what we have gained from this course this semester, we are confident that we will be able to successfully edit this article in order to provide a more accurate and educated account of Islam and Clothing. Please let us know what you think of our ideas. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Katiefell (talk • contribs) 16:08, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi my name is Jillian Piazza. I am also a student at Colgate University and will be editing this article in cooperation with Carl and his group. I am also working with two other Colgate students. In addition to what Carl is contributing to the article, we hope to add a more cosmopolitan perspective because of the varying styles of clothing that exist within each culture.

Hi my name is Evan Heby. I am a student at Colgate University and will be editing this article in cooperation with all of the other Colgate students. We are working in two groups of three on this article, and we hope to add more detailed information about Women's dress in Islam. We also hope that we can put perspective into the article--perspective of other countries, as well as both a modern and an historical perspective.

Changing the title

The article's title is a bit misleading. Since the article only talks about women's clothing in Islam, we believe that the title should cater to that. A title change to something like "Women's Clothing in Islam" or "Islam and Women's Clothing." Since men's garb is not discussed at all, we believe that we should make the title more appropriate for what the article is talking about. We did not want to change the article's title immediately since it would be a huge change to the article, but we thought it would be something for Wikipedia users to think about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eheby10 (talk • contribs) 15:46, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Page needs work, including illustrations

This page really needs some work. It appears to have just been taken from an Islamic website, and the neutrality and overall usefulness is questionable, at best. The layout is also awful, and it lacks any pictures to illustrate its content. Someone with some objective expertise/experience needs to rework this page.

There's a previous version that is much less pious, and has a few pictures, but we've been having a little revert war here with me against a pious Muslim editor and an editor who is angry at me and reverting my edits on principle. I'll revert back to the previous version, but could use some help maintaining it. Zora 18:42, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the article sorely needs illustrations. I came here looking to find the names of some garments of Pakistani origin that I have in possession, and pictures would be indispensible in that. __meco 16:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking at this article for the first time. I didn't even know what a hijab is. But I notice that it is over 19 months since that last comment and there are no illustrations so people like me can learn which garments are which. That's what every non-Muslim like me wants to see first, I can assure you. If photographs offend you, how about drawings? Korky Day 05:00, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Adding Pictures

Our group has had difficulty adding pictures to this Wikipedia page for several reasons. First of all, Wikipedia takes copyright infringement very seriously, and thus it is difficult for us to add them. We really wanted to add a few images right on to the talk page, but we did not want to violate any of Wikipedia's rules. Our solution to this problem was to instead add links where we wanted the pictures so interested users could find the images we intended to add. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eheby10 (talk • contribs) 15:59, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Conclusion section contains POV & Original research

The general tone does not seem proper, particularly lines like: "People across the world cannot help themselves, and constantly judge Muslim women for their dress." "The truth is that there is no real solution to this problem." "...and it does not seem that it will die down anytime soon. From our thorough research, it seems that..." I'm not sure that this section should be included altogether. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaakovaryeh (talk • contribs) 02:32, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Bias torwards woman clothing??

This article only discusses womans clothing, in particular veils of all sort.But actually, Islam has directions for both, men and woman (largely ignored by males). For example, a man clothing should be moderate and loose fit and it should display humbleness and modesty. I must not be out of silk or similar precious materials. At the time of the prophet Muhammad (saw), the clothing of the Arabian peninsula was different from now. It was Izaar (sarong) and a sheet of cloth worn around the shoulders.This style of cloth can partly be seen in Yemen, but the real old style of wearing it (without oxford shirt) is seen on the other side of the Red Sea by Afar, Issa and Danakil peoples and until recently also by the Beja peoples and Somalis. The material is white or off white.It is similar to clothing worn at Hajj but not made from modern towl material but simple cotton or previously linen cloth. Later, Kaftan (Kibr) was intruduced via the Turks (Ottoman empire) and after that Thobe with western style cuffs and collars where probably copied from the British and British India after the Arab Revolt. Likewise, the Egyptian occupation of Yemen brought Egyptian collarless Gellabiyah to Yemen, which also influenced the Omani Thobe, while styles are mixed with styles from the Indian subcontinent.It was probably during the British Indian times, that cotton fabric and ready made items from India where imported on mass scale to the Arabian Peninsula via the Dhow trade.The use of pyjamas or pants sirwar was unknown prior to the Ottoman occupation and frowned upon by most Beduin peoples.In more remote places like Oman, pyjamas or sirwar are not worn underneath the Thobe. Instead a white unstiched cotton izaar Lungi of the same type used in Kerala (see Mundu) is worn. Specific rules apply to how the izaar is worn and it should never be worn over one's ankles (considered arrogant and idle).It is strange: the so called purists, Salafis and Wahabbis totaly ignore the actual clothing rules for men, while interpreting an insane strict clothing regimen for woman and girls. There is no modesty in men wearing an imported Swizz made Ghutra for 500 $ a piece and combining it with designer disdasha that costs thousands of dollar to be topped by an insane expensive bisht.The Ghutra (Keffiyeh) is not an islamic cloth item, but a pre-islamic one also used by non Muslims.The Muslim headgear should be the Turban with a tail (outlawed in Turkey and Saudi Arabia for it's association with Sufism). The modern Saudi cloths may have been moderate when they where produced (Ghandhi style) at ones own household, but they certainly aren't moderate now, when these have become novelty items.It's actually the poorer Muslims of South Asia and Eastern Africa who keep up the old islamic simple and modest male cloth styles while the Saudi or Salaf/Wahabbi styles have been hijacked by hypocrates and influenced by non islamic cultures (Persians/Byzantinians/Turks).The only other people who upheld the male islamic clothing tradition are Sufi's and Faqeer's. If there is cloth rule for both sexes, then lets talk about both and not single out woman and girls under the pretext of modesty.95.223.187.171 (talk) 06:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I was definitely struck by the same bias. I hope someone knowledgeable on this topic will have the chance to integrate this kind of information into the main article. Dowcet (talk) 10:12, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Inadequate

This is like so many pages about Islam: clearly written by a believer with limited knowledge of the subject. Rather than add to the useful comments of other readers, let me just mention the fiurst sentence: 'The Arabic word hijab (حجاب) literally translates into English as "veil".' It does nothing of the sort. In fact, though 'veil' is often used, it does not express the meaning at all. Wehr's Dictionary (the most reliable) translates as: 'cover, wrap, drape; curtain; woman's veil; screen, partition, folding screen; barrier, bar; diaphragm; amulet.' None of the Qur'anic instances of hijab or cognates (8 in all) refers to a veil, and those who translate it that way are incorrect and biased to a modernist view. The article needs to be rewritten by someone who actually knows about the subject from a non-faith point of view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denis MacEoin (talk • contribs) 00:55, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Sharia interpretations

This needs to cover the different schools of thought on modest dress. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 08:15, 1 May 2016 (UTC).

Merge proposal

I propose to merge the multiple descriptions of legislation or cultural norms which may dictate to wear or to ban the wearing of any form of Islamic which are described on this page and multiple other pages to be merged into the article Hijab by country. Please do not discuss here but on the talk page there: Talk:Hijab_by_country. LucLeTruc (talk) 13:00, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support. PPEMES (talk) 22:57, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 16 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to Islamic clothing at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 00:31, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

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Islam and clothing → Islamic religious clothing – Per WP:CONSISTENCY with Jewish religious clothing, Christian clothing. PPEMES (talk) 22:43, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

That is only consistent with one of the two though. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:49, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, hesitating over which one would be more appropriate, but at least one of them should be a consistency improvement. PPEMES (talk) 22:56, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Move to Islamic clothing per WP:CONCISE. As Islam is a religion, "Islamic religious clothing" is redundant and unnecessary in the same way that hot-water heater (what people actually call it where I'm from) is. I can understand the Jewish article including the word "religious" because "Jewish" can refer to a religion or an ethnic group. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:19, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Support move to Islamic clothing, also per WP:PRECISION. The current title can mean clothing in the Islamic world, which is not its current scope. Eperoton (talk) 04:57, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Support move to Islamic clothing per others above, but oppose "Islamic religious clothing". Khestwol (talk) 08:07, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Support ALT Islamic clothing for arguments provided. PPEMES (talk) 10:49, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Some critique

This article is all about hijabs or Islamic women's clothing, and should perhaps be retitled to reflect that. There is no mention of men's clothing here, which is what I was curious about - to read up on the Islamic doctrines regarding men's clothing. Also the Pakistan section makes no sense, when mentioning numbered women. Obviously, that section is missing some pictures or some references to a study. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8070:D1A8:9100:849C:496E:E3CF:F470 (talk) 20:02, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree, fully. This article is frankly, incomplete and a bit ridiculous. The links at the bottom go to people's personal websites that are not authoritative in the :least. The whole article is all about women, and in parts just wildly inaccurate. There are a lot of cultural traditions within men's clothing as well in Islam that :are not addressed. This article needs to be flagged and improved, its not up to wikipedia's standard at all. 2001:DF1:800:10E:11:0:0:3 (talk) 00:59, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

I also agree, this article should be moved to the hijab page. Barbar03 (talk) 07:14, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Some Improvements

I have to agree with most of the comments that this article does not equally discuss men and women Islamic clothing. Rather than changing the title of the page, I feel it is more impactful to add more information regarding men's clothing. Most of my additions to this article reflect that sentiment.Rorispielman (talk) 23:13, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Islaam has many different clothing types. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:183:8300:E1A0:10CD:7D95:2337:6AB2 (talk) 16:16, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

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