Talk:Isambard Kingdom Brunel Standing Before the Launching Chains of the Great Eastern/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: BennyOnTheLoose (talk · contribs) 07:49, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Happy to discuss, or be challenged on, any of my review comments. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 07:49, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Copyvio check - there's some copying either to or from a particular blog page that I'll investigate further. "one of his most ambitious and frustrating" is a phrase that appears on the NPG site so should be either reworked or, if appropriate, attributed.

I couldn't find an archived copy of the blog post, but it appears to date from June 2013. "in front of a large drum of chain used to restrain the ship while it was lowered down the launching ramp. Brunel's trousers and boots are muddy from the shipbuilding yard and he is smoking one of his customary cigars" will need reworking unless there is a convincing case that it's a backwards copy on the blog. (I don't think the blog counts as an RS to attrobute the text to.)

How weird, I don't remember reading any blogs about the photograph and am convinced I wrote the lead from scratch. Reworded anyway - Dumelow (talk) 15:27, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Stability - no edit wars.

Images - all public domain. Captions are fine. I viewed the page on desktop and mobile and the placement of images was OK.

Background

• Is ssgreatbritain.org sufficiently independent to be used to support "Isambard Kingdom Brunel was a British engineer who constructed a number of innovative civil and railway engineering projects and, in 1845, the SS Great Britain, at that time the largest ship ever built"? (Presumably the organisation has an interest in getting people to visit the ship. Finding an alternative source shouldn't be difficult.)

Replaced with a page from Royal Museums Greenwich - Dumelow (talk) 13:48, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

• "six times bigger than anything else afloat"/" the biggest ship in the world" (source) is not necessarily the same as "six times larger than any other ship ever constructed." (article - I've added italics here)

Agreed and a bit sloppy of me not to mention in what area it was bigger (tonnage), since fixed and reffed to the Met - Dumelow (talk) 13:53, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

• NHMF source has a date (9 September 2019). No retrieved date in the citation.

Added - Dumelow (talk) 13:55, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

• "was not beaten in size for fifty years" - would probably benefit form being a bit more formal/specific.

Agreed, I've expanded on the ship's career and clarified this - Dumelow (talk) 15:09, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Photograph

• "The Illustrated Times wanted to illustrate its coverage" - maybe reword to avoid Illustrated/illustrate? "e.g. wanted to include engravings in its article about the launch" (there will be better phrasings, that's an example.)

Reworded - Dumelow (talk) 13:50, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• "the Photographic Institution" - capital T for The, I think

Done - Dumelow (talk) 13:50, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• "came to prominence" is a phrase used in the source. Should be reworked, or attributed.

Removed - Dumelow (talk) 13:50, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• "In his most famous version of the photograph" - I don't have the source, but isnt it (something like "the most famous of the three individual photographs"? I'm not sure that they are versions, but let me know if I'm wrong.

Yep, rephrased. I also took the opportunity to introduce the title - Dumelow (talk) 13:50, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• Optional: I understand the need to not closely paraphrase the source, but "without which he rarely appeared in public" feels a bit clunky and could probably be better worded.

Reworded - Dumelow (talk) 13:45, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• "square on to the chains" - I don't have the source, but the phrase "square on to" doesn't look quite right. I had a look in the OED and I think "square" means at right angles to, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the pictures.

I've changed to "a position directly in front of the drum", but please also see comments below. More than happy to rephrase these sentences if needed - Dumelow (talk) 13:50, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Howlett adjusted him" - again, I don't have the source. Did Howlett move Brunel? It seems possible he would have directed him by something like touching his shoulders, but please jsut check back to the source and review the wording.

I made a mistake here. Rereading the source Howlett adjusted the camera position which was initially off to the side of the drum. I've tried to clarify this in the article - Dumelow (talk) 13:50, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• "at an angle to them" - does the source say anything about the angle? I guess any position would be at some angle, including 90 or 180 degrees.

I have changed to include "oblique", which means any non-right angle. The source doesn't go into any more detail - Dumelow (talk) 13:50, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Publication

• "his career being curtailed by his death" seems an unecessary formulation.

Reworded - Dumelow (talk) 13:59, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• "Brunel's 1859 death" - how about "Brunel's death in 1859"

Agreed, I added the full date but am happy for it to revert to just 1859 if desired - Dumelow (talk) 13:59, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Interpretation

• "and determination. They note" - how about "and determination, and note" to avoid two consecutive sentences starting with "They.."?

Done - Dumelow (talk) 13:45, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• "his muddied clothing reflects Brunel's " - swap "his" and "Brunel's"; or just use "his" again instead of "Brunel's"

Went with his twice - Dumelow (talk) 13:45, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• " They describe Howlett's decision to use the chains for a backdrop as inspired and state that it served to humanise the subject." - if any of this is direct quote, enclose it in quotation marks. If not, leave it as is.

Done - Dumelow (talk) 13:45, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Impact

• "The photograph has been reproduced in "countless" books" - according to who?

Got rid of this, as I list a load of books anyway - Dumelow (talk) 13:45, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• NPG's 2016 100 Portraits and their 2018 100 Photographs. - I suggest mentioning that these are books.

Done - Dumelow (talk) 13:45, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• where refs appear [18][15] , the order could be swapped.

Think this is sorted now - Dumelow (talk) 10:19, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

External links

• No issues.

Lead

• "by far the largest ship constructed to that date" - may need amending, depending on the response to the second point under the Background section above.

Think this is OK now I've changed the main text? - Dumelow (talk) 13:45, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Neutrality, breadth and depth

• No issues. There is enough background for context, without straying too far from the article topic.

Sources

• What makes meisterdrucke.uk a reliable source?

Replaced with NPG refs - Dumelow (talk) 10:28, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

• Optional: I suggest running IABot (because linkrot is a thing)

Done an initial run, I'll run again later as I may be changing or adding some refs - Dumelow (talk) 10:28, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

General

• I added a couple of commas. If any don't look right, let's discuss.

Fine by me, cheers - Dumelow (talk) 13:45, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your work on this interesting article, Dumelow. Not much needs to be done for me to be happy to pass this for GA. I've got some suggestions and a couple of questions above. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi BennyOnTheLoose, thanks for picking this up so quickly! I'm just waiting for copies of National Portrait Gallery: A Portrait of Britain, 100 Portraits and 100 Photographs to arrive (should be about a week) as I want to check what they say. In the meantime, I'll start working through your other comments - Dumelow (talk) 08:41, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I've found an article from a V&A Museum exhibition that provides some of the technical details behind the photograph and a PhD thesis that contains some commentary so I've added these. Would appreciate a check of the new content, when you can. Many thanks - Dumelow (talk) 08:45, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

All the new content looks good, and I note that the additional image is PD. Is there a suitable wikilink for "PhD thesis" or is that common enough not to need one, do you think? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:14, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi BennyOnTheLoose, I've checked the text back to the original sources and made changes as noted above. Would appreciate if you could give this another look, when you get chance. Many thanks - Dumelow (talk) 13:47, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

There is some inconsistency in the formats of retrieved dates, but that isn't a blocker to getting to GA. I re-ordered a couple of refs for tidiness. I'm happy with the responses to all of my review points and with the additions since the original review, so happy to pass this for GA as I believe it meets the criteria. Thanks again for you efforts on the article, Dumelow. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:13, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Thankyou for reviewing BennyOnTheLoose. I've reformatted the ref dates, think IAbot must have added them that way - Dumelow (talk) 14:24, 9 July 2021 (UTC)