Talk:Irish bouzouki

Merge with Octave mandolin?

On the octave mandolin page (but not this one!), it says that they are the same instrument; and it's pretty much true, as the essential difference is scale length of the two instruments. Should the pages be merged with a different section for Irish bouzouki? Thoughts? Dan Cottrell (talk) 22:42, 19 April 2012 (UTC) It's not exactly the same : on an Irish Bouzouki, the tunning is Gg Dd aa ee or Gg Dd aa dd and on an octave mandoline it's GG DD aa ee. Well, it means that on a mandoline, the strings are doubled but are the same, and on a bouzouki on the 2 first chords, the strings are doubled at the octave (Low G and high G for the bouzouki, 2 low Gs on a mandoline). that's the main difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.66.75.172 (talk) 22:23, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Tuning is not dictated by the instrument; there are multiple "standard" tunings for both bouzouki and mandolin. The so-called "Irish bouzouki" is just another name for the octave mandolin.

The preference in stringing and tuning no more make these different instruments, than stringing and tuning a guitar in "Nashville high" makes it into something other than a guitar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 22:36, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

pronunciation...

Pronuctiation?

Bu-zoo-kee —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Piratebob13 (talk • contribs) 21:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

Right; and stressed on the second sillable: bouzóuki = bu'zuki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.61.206.200 (talk) 15:03, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Chris Thile

I can't believe this page doesn't mention Chris Thile... Piratebob13 21:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I see your point, but I'd argue that Chris Thile doesn't have enough to do with the origin or the popularity of the instrument (however, he was my inspiration for buying a bouzouki so perhaps your point is quite valid). Rather, I'd say that he is just unbelievably good at any stringed instrument he picks up and just so happens to pick up a bouzouki from time to time, even though he hasn't been a major pioneer for the irish bouzouki.

spelling error: trixordo should be trichordo

The words "trixordo" and "tetraxordo" used all over the text to refer to the two Greek versions of the instrument originate from the greek words "τρίχορδο" and "τετράχορδο", meaning three- and four- chord instruments. The correct transliteration of the word "χορδή" (means string) in english (through latin) is "chord", where the "χ" is written as "ch" not "x". My guess is the "x" originates from "greenglish" a rendering of the greek alphabet using english letters that is visual, not phonetic, usually used by greeks over the internet. Finally, you could use the ancient greek word for "three-strings", "trichordon" (and "tetrachordon") although in modern greek the final "n" has been dropped, so "trichordo" and "tetrachordo" refer to the words used when the instrument was introduced in Irish music. The other bouzouki articles in wikipedia make use of the correctly spelled words "trichordo" and "tetrachordo", using "ch" instead of "x" for the greek letter "χ".

that's right, it should be "ch", and you can go ahead and replace the Xs yourself if you wish.

No, that's not correct. The Greek names are transliterated as "trixordo" and "tetraxordo" by Greeks writing in the Latin alphabet. "Chordo" is an English transliteration of "χορδο", but the name of the instrument is not "trichordo", etc.

another problem I see with this article is the statement "Hardly anyone uses the Greek bouzouki for Irish music today". Where and from whose point of view does this come from? 99.251.230.51 (talk) 03:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

From me. Do you know the case to be otherwise?

"Greeks writing in the Latin alphabet" may write trixordo or tetraxordo, and that is fine, but those are Greek words transliterated into English, or Greeklish. This being the English Wikipedia, and an article about an instrument a bit removed from the Greek original, it is more appropriate to use the accepted English words "trichordo" and "tetrachordo." See WP:MOS#Foreign_terms, WP:Romanization, and WP:Naming conventions (Greek). __ Just plain Bill (talk) 01:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Infobox

Discussion of the infobox that just showed up is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musical Instruments. __Just plain Bill (talk) 23:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Different Styles/Tunings

What about people who employ the instrument other types of music besides traditional Irish, such as what "Falik" ([1])? He uses a slightly different tuning (aA-eE-aa-dd). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meritmedia (talk • contribs) 23:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Drop D Tuning

Apart from GDAD I also drop the G string to D (DDAD) The bass string is mainly used as a sympathetic string (drone)and I strum the melodies to Irish,Scottish and Macedonian tunes. It is quite a quiet style of playing tunes. It works especially well with another instrument and or with the capo on. In some cases the tune goes lower than the tuning will allow but as with The Uilleann Pipes one can change the key of the tune and have the bass drone as a fifth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.162.149 (talk) 15:43, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Tunings

There are some serious inconsistencies in the tuning section and one odd thing is mentioning how someone pioneered the GDAE tuning on the mandolin. The mandolin has been tuned GDAE certainly long enough for it to be impossible to credit to any one person. eyeball226 (talk) 21:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, someone "corrected" that from what it should have been, GDAD. Johnny Moynihan came up with the GDAD tuning on mandolin and then transferred that to the bouzouki before Irvine and Lunny picked it up. I reversed it so that it is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoukboy (talk • contribs) 05:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Tagged for expert attention

I just fixed one or two little things, but can only do so much here by guess and by gosh. There seems to be enough good information here to make into a decent article, but the overall impression I get of this page is a shapeless blob of bits tacked on here and there, without any citations to speak of, and a bit or two of POV, such as "are the only professionals of any consequence who use them." I will continue to chip away at some of the structural things, but not being versed in the history of this brilliant instrument I can only go by what shows on the face of what's here. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 22:25, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Once again, agreed. I have been trying to keep this factual but it'd been a few weeks since I was here and several folks came in and with the best of intentions, I am sure, but they made a hash of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoukboy (talk • contribs) 05:11, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

External Links section is far too long

A lot of External Links have been added to this article--far more than are appropriate per WP:EL. Part of said document states, "Some external links are welcome...but it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a lengthy or comprehensive list of external links related to each topic. " This page should not contain a link to every Irish bouzouki musician and instrument maker--arguably, it shouldn't include more than 1 or 2 of the most notable practitioners. Now, I know nothing about Irish bouzouki (I literally hadn't heard of it until a few minutes ago), so I'd rather not be the one to do the pruning. But someone needs to bring that section into compliance with standard EL practices. If no one does in a reasonable time, I'll come back and do my best. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:38, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Alright! It has been done, though maybe I buzzed a little too much off the top eh? I did move two of the external links to more relevant spots too! Hope it works. Honinbou (talk) 00:42, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I sincerely tried to trim down the External Links section two times already but others keep adding a bunch of luthiers to the list. Personally, I don't think it is relevant or needed on Wikipedia but it seems others are not in agreement. I am giving up. Honinbou (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I just re-trimmed it to the three links recently left by Honinbou. There were additions and removals since then, some by what seems to be a knowledgeable anon editor, but it would be better to gain something resembling consensus here on the discussion page before allowing the bloat to reappear. I suspect this will need perseverance, given the history. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 16:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I trimmed it to 3 relevant links just now. I actually am extremely well versed on this brilliant instrument. There are a lot of attempts by C grade musicians and luthiers to include themselves on here. I removed everything and kept it to the one festival and 2 significant luthiers. Stanley Greenthal, Roger Landes, and Andy Irvine are all major players but in the interest of brevity I left them out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Talabardio (talk • contribs) 00:02, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Other names

Sometimes the Irish bouzouki is described as Cittern, Irish cittern, Octave mandolin or Irish cither. 91.61.206.200 (talk) 15:13, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

"The modern instruments known as the Cittern, Irish Bouzouki, and Octave Mandolin have become very popular in Irish and Scottish music since the 1960s. Makers, such as Stephan Sobell, have created a wide variety of of these larger mandolin-style instruments." http://www.jonathanramsey.com/instruments/cittern.shtml 91.61.206.200 (talk) 15:13, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

"Bouzouki" is a misnomer: merge

There is about as much evidence that the "Irish bouzouki" developed from the mandolin and mandola as there is that it was an adaptation of the true Greek bouzouki -- which is to say, there isn't definitive evidence for either claim.

Structurally, the Irish "bouzouki" is an octave mandolin. Modern examples are almost always made with the more or less flat-backed design of the modern mandolin family instruments, whereas bouzoukis always have bowled backs. Also, bouzoukis have a large, generally oval-shaped sound hole, whereas Irish "bouzoukis" usually have a smaller, round sound hole, more characteristic of the mandolins.

In effect, "Irish bouzouki" is nothing more than a regional ethnic name for the octave mandolin.

This article should be merged with Octave mandolin, and a "disambiguation" note added at the beginning of the Greek bouzouki article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 22:32, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello '74.95.43.249',

Thank you for creating the present new section. Here is some evidence of the emergence of the Irish bouzouki out of the Greek instrument; quoted verbatim from O'Toole's book The Humours of Planxty:

Page 66 — Andy Irvine: "That summer of 1966 was absolute bliss. We [Sweeney's Men] were still not professional musicians at that time but we travelled Ireland and made money enough (...)."

Page 67 — "Sweeney's Men were up and running and gradually a unique sound was born around a bouzouki-mandolin interplay that would later be cited as one of the key attributes of Planxty's music. As legend reads, Johnny Moynihan introduced the Greek bouzouki to Irish music. Much to his chagrin, this story has been perverted and contorted in various articles and books through the years. Johnny bought his first bouzouki from a friend called Tony Ffrench who had brought the instrument back from Greece. 'He decided he either couldn't play it or didn't want to', explains Johnny. (...) Initially the Greek bouzouki wasn't well received by Moynihan's band-mates, but it soon became an integral facet of the band's sound. 'That was kind of invented by Johnny and me one night in his parents' kitchen, which I remember well', says Andy. 'He was playing 'Rattlin' Roarin' Willy' and he was trying to get the phrasing of the tune and we suddenly decided to put a harmony to it and I think that was the beginning of the bouzouki-mandolin interplay.' Having later swapped his bouzouki for a pre-war Gibson mandolin – 'an offer I couldn't refuse' – Moynihan's second bouzouki was a different shape altogether. It was a flat back rather than a traditional round back. 'I was in London with an old friend, now deceased, Trevor Crozier. Trevor knew a guy called John Bailey who made instruments for the leading lights of the English folk scene. John had a bouzouki that he made himself and was fed up with it hanging on his wall. Trevor heard that I no longer had a bouzouki and so he said he'd introduce me to John, which he did. Bailey had been in a Greek restaurant in London and he saw these bouzouki players and he asked if he could measure the instrument. He'd never made a round-back instrument, so he used a flat back and the sound was lovely. It hadn't got the depth or the punch of a normal bouzouki, but it actually had more sustain and it sounded like a Martin guitar with a real long neck'."

Page 170 — "The recording of Planxty's second album, The Well Below the Valley, began the week of 18 June 1973. (...) Dónal was now armed with his famous 'teardrop' bouzouki. 'Sometime shortly before Planxty recorded The Well Below the Valley, I went with Andy to Peter Abnett's workshop in Kent. Andy was going to have Peter make him a hurdy-gurdy. While we were there, I started thinking about asking Peter to make me a bouzouki. I knew I could have a say in the design of the new bouzouki – it didn't have to be round-bellied like the authentic Greek one that Andy had given me. There was a little wooden-bodied five-string banjo hanging on the wall in Peter's workshop. It had an absolutely beautiful sound. The body was tear-shaped and more or less flatback, much smaller than a bouzouki body. When I discussed specifications for the new bouzouki with Peter, I asked him if he could give it the same body as the banjo, but make it proportionally larger, and he did.' According to Dónal, Peter later made several hundred more bouzoukis to roughly the same design for musicians who'd seen him play. 'Because Planxty, and later the Bothy Band, performed to so many thousands of people all over Europe, the bouzouki became popular in the world of acoustic music. Also, Alec Finn was playing a bouzouki in De Danann, who were touring extensively at that time, and would have added to the growth of its popularity. But probably because I was seen by more people – and possibly because of what I was making the bouzouki do rhythmically, I gradually became the person more closely associated with it in the music public's consciousness. This led to me being described from time to time in the media as the person who brought the bouzouki to Irish music. This is a claim I never made personally. I'd accept that I may be the person most responsible for the general presence of the bouzouki in Irish music today – but Johnny Moynihan brought the bouzouki to Ireland, and a historic moment it was too!'"

I hope it helps.

With kind regards;

Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(guestbook)} 03:08, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually your evidence supports the OP's claim that "Irish bouzouki" is a regionalism. Johnny Moynihan, in fact, started out using the Greek instrument, a true bouzouki. When he traded it away, John Bailey made him a flat-backed mandolin based on bouzouki measurements. The fact that he used proportions taken from the Greek instrument for his mandolin no more makes it a "bouzouki" than a flat-backed guitar based on lute proportions is a "lute".

In your third passage, Peter Abnett makes a similar flat-backed instrument based on the proportions of a banjo. By the logic you appear to be proposing, he could just as well have called this instrument an "Irish banjo" -- but he didn't. It was another mandolin -- albeit built on banjo proportions -- just as the Irish "bouzouki" is a mandolin built on bouzouki proportions.

And in fact, Hornbostel–Sachs classifies the "Irish Bouzouki" with the mandolins and guitars (321.322) and not with the true bouzoukis and other lutes (321.321).

I support merging this article with "octave mandolin".

70.89.176.249 (talk) 20:26, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Could it be that the modern "Irish bouzouki" and the modern "octave mandolin" are becoming more and more alike over time, such that they now are, but were not before, essentially the same imnstrument? (I'm no expert, but see "Talk" pages of both articles.) Acwilson9 (talk) 04:19, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I play a Trinity College octave mandolin, with a nominal scale length of 20" (the bridge compensation complicates precise measurement, but it's close enough for folk music.) The neck has twelve frets clear of the body, 21 in total. Online vendor Musician's Friend lists an Irish bouzouki from the same manufacturer with fifteen clear frets and a 26" scale length. The proportion of body to neck has a very different appearance, consistent with a friend's custom-built zouk which I have handled. As I recall, that one has a smaller body than my octave mando. They are similar in some ways, but the sound and feel of the longer scale is a distinct difference.

While I realize this is anecdotal, and could be construed as OR, I believe it points to enough verifiable information to cast serious doubt on the modern octave mandolin and Irish bouzouki being considered the same instrument, any more than the viola and violin. Just plain Bill (talk) 16:03, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, Bill... I've got a Hora octave mandolin that has a 24" scale, with 14 frets clear, and 25 frets total. It has the traditional A-style mandolin tear-drop shaped body, with a flat back and oval sound hole, and it sounds like a mandolin, not a bouzouki.

The Hora "Irish bouzouki" is about 2" longer, but only because the neck is attached at a different point -- it has 16 clear frets. Interestingly, the fingerboards are the same on both instruments, but there are only 23 frets on the so-called bouzouki, even though there is room for a couple more. The bodies on the two instruments are identical in shape and proportion, with essentially the same shape, size and location of sound hole.

It sounds pretty much exactly like their octave mandolin. If you put on a blindfold and played the two instruments I doubt you would be able to tell them apart. To me, these are two models of the same instrument, even more alike than the Gibson J-45 guitar and the Hummingbird -- which are both Gibson dreadnought 6-string guitars. "Irish bouzouki" is just a another name for a retuned octave mandolin.

By contrast, my friend has a Katsifas tetrachordo -- an authentic Greek bouzouki made by a highly regarded Greek luthier. If you pluck even a single string on his instrument, and compare to the same string on either of the two Hora instruments, you can instantly tell that these are distinctly different sorts of instruments. It's as stark a distinction as that between a guitar and a banjo.

74.95.43.253 (talk) 20:20, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Scandinavian bouzouki?

in the text is mentioned "in fact, there is even now a new Nordic branch of the instrument, having been modified further to suit the unique requirements of those musics" anyone have any more information or source about this claim? Does it maybe have something to do with http://fyldeguitars.com/custom_guitars/nordic.html perhaps? CatCat (talk) 23:12, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Given that, 6 years later, I Also can't find any source for this, I'd like to suggest we remove that footnote from the article 109.147.47.68 (talk) 14:43, 27 March 2024 (UTC)