Talk:Irish Water

UNDUE

In mortal fear of seeming like an Irish Water apologist, if we're going to avoid issues of WP:UNDUE, this article possibly needs to have "history" or "operation" sections (possibly modeling on articles like Severn Trent or Los Angeles Department of Water and Power). Otherwise it could be perceived as a COATRACK for a criticism section. Granted it's early days (and claims of UNDUE might be highlighted as appropriate with a question like "what has the entity actually done - other than attract controversy"), but I'd welcome thoughts on this before trying to address. Guliolopez (talk) 15:36, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Recent edit

This content was added recently. I spent a few minutes trying to rework the content (to address some guideline variances). However, by the time I cut-back some of the inappropriate content, there was scarce little left. So I reluctantly reverted the entirety. In short, on each snippet of the addition:

1. "The introduction of a water utility, although common in many European countries" - this reads like commentary (and is unsupported by cite)
2. "in Ireland has proved to be a source of controversy and intense campaigning as indicated by press reports (see below for examples)." - this is already covered in the intro (and elsewhere). We're just restating.
3. "However, the Irish government has made concessions on the Irish Water charging regime," - this reads like WP:OR editorialising (are we trying to position an argument that public concerns are misplaced?)
4. "The Irish Independent reported that {copy and pasted paragraphs and bullets verbatim from the Irish Independent}" - we shouldn't have this level of content copied/pasted from sources. Certainly not in the lead. Per WP:NOFULLTEXT

Happy to discuss how best to address any issues - so the core message can be added. But the text (as was) wasn't inline with guidelines. Guliolopez (talk) 17:13, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

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Page title change

Irish Water is now known as Uisce Éireann.

{{paid|employer=Uisce Éireann}} Beanmaker (talk) 12:46, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for your note. I'm not sure if you're proposing a specific change with your comment above, but the article content has reflected the name change since January 2023. In terms of the article title, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:OFFICIALNAME are both relevant. In short, unless or until the new official name becomes the accepted common name, Wikipedia convention is to use the common name. (And, given that many news sources still use "Irish Water" {[2][3][4][5][6]}, it seems likely that the marketing/rebrand initiative has a ways to go yet.) Wikipedia will reflect (rather than preempt) the real-world change... Guliolopez (talk) 13:39, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt review. Google scrapes this page from Wikipedia into an infobox panel. It is unlikely the new name will be considered as 'accepted common name' while it is showing on such results as the old name - chicken and egg scenario! See below a sample of media articles which use the new name accordingly {[7][8][9][10][11][12][13]} Beanmaker (talk) 14:37, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Given both sets of sample articles, it could be argued that the "significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources" are using the new name. Cashew.wheel (talk) 14:54, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Um, no, that's a selective sample. Google gives me 2.48 million hits for "Irish Water", 96,000 for both "Uisce Eireann" and "Uisce Éireann". Bing gives me 38 million hits for "Irish Water" (which will admittedly contain many false positives talking about the water in Ireland), compared to only 126,000 hits for "Uisce Eireann" and 89,000 for "Uisce Éireann". "Irish Water" is still very much the WP:COMMONNAME and that's unlikely to change any time soon. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:36, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

We don't need the amount of sources that use the new name to become the majority. That would take years after everyone uses the new name. Per WP:NAMECHANGE, because most reliable sources that have been published after the name change seem to use the new name, it is in fact the common name. Snowmanonahoe (talk) 15:42, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Ehh, looking at it again, I wouldn't say it's very clear cut whether it's the common name or not. Maybe I'll open an RM about it later today. Snowmanonahoe (talk) 15:51, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Snowmanonahoe. While, as noted, the name was officially changed in Jan 2023, I agree that it is far from clear cut (that the new OFFICIALNAME has yet become the COMMONNAME). Even if we completely ignore January and February, news sources from March onwards (including up to the last few days) still use the former name; See: GNews search - Irish Water - 1 Mar 2023 onwards | GNews search - Uisce Éireann - 1 Mar 2023 onwards. While, granted, some of the recent news coverage uses both names (including in "the artist formerly known as..." type clarifications) many recent headlines still use the "old" name. Perhaps to ensure that readers (not yet aware of the rebrand) are clear on what topic is under discussion. Unless and until this is "clearer cut", I'm not sure a move is in order. (And, while I understand the PAID/COI editor's suggestion about Wikipedia being in a position to lay a chicken-egg here, that isn't how things work. Wikipedia follows the sources. It doesn't lead....) Guliolopez (talk) 16:12, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Limiting a web search to only pages updated in the past month, there's ~26,000 references to "Irish Water", to ~280 for "Uisce Éireann". Happy to keep the current common name. Cashew.wheel (talk) 16:14, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

And now it moves - did the rest of us miss a further discussion on this, somewhere? SeoR (talk) 14:54, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Snap SeoR. I have tagged the moving editor in my note below. Perhaps a consensus/discussion occurred elsewhere... Guliolopez (talk) 14:57, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Unheralded move

Hi Canterbury Tail. Can you confirm the basis for this move? Was it based on consensus or COMMONNAME or something else? To my mind, in the very recent discussion above it was broadly confirmed that there was/is no immediate or definitive evidence that the (new) official name had/has yet become the COMMONNAME. And, until it is or becomes clear, that a move could possibly be premature. Your recent move doesn't seem to acknowledge or consider the above discussion. If not based on consensus/discussion, what was the move based on? (Frankly the move seems to be questionable relative to WP:RMUM. As there was a recent discussion about the title of the page that expressed concerns about the proposed title..... Guliolopez (talk) 14:54, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

This is 100% my bad. I came across the article, saw it was very lightly edited and mostly ignored and thought the move to the official name would be uncontroversial. I never looked at the talk, and this is completely on me. I shall move it all back. Apologies. Canterbury Tail talk 15:02, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

No harm no foul. Thanks Canterbury Tail. As noted by Snowmanonahoe, it will probably be worth revisiting this (in an RM discussion) in the coming weeks/months. Guliolopez (talk) 15:07, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• UE MasterLogo RGB FullColour.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:24, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

If Beanmaker never returns, this can still be kept as fair use. On an unrelated note, Since we agree the old name is still more common, the old logo probably is as well, so that logo should probably be brought back somewhere else in the article. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 22:58, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

...The email was in my spam for 2 weeks. God damn it. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 22:02, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 17 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. – robertsky (talk) 07:25, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

---

Irish Water → Uisce Éireann – It was right to hold off on renaming this to see if the rebranding into the Irish language would become common. But now in a Google News search, Uisce Éireann seems to be ahead in authoritative media sources compared to Irish Water. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 07:13, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

• Comment numbers? There are news articles that use either, such as this one for the old, although under the results for "Irish Water", there is a few having "Irish water" (de-capped) likely skewing the figures unfairly. However, I do see the Irish name used more, so believe there is a case if it can be put into numbers of results for WP:NAMECHANGES, as linking the first page of Google News results isn't saying anything. DankJae 10:33, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - In the continued enshittification of Google, your links just give me some news results, and populate more of them when you scroll down the page. Neither page gives me the number of search results. When I do a standard Google search for the specific terms, and then click on 'News' on the result page, I get 300 results for "Uisce Éireann" and 21,400 results for "Irish Water". Irish Water is still the common name - even allowing for "Irish water" and "UÉ, formerly known as Irish Water" false positives. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:37, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose but revisit in 6 months. The new name seems very slow to gain traction, with many news sources sticking with the English, even some in Ireland, which should have no issue with such basic terms, written or pronounced. Likewise, informal experience and "ask around" shows no uptake, it's still just good old "Irish Water". Whatever the rebranding time and cost was meant to achieve, work to do yet. SeoR (talk) 14:35, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. And revisit in a few months. Per SeoR. While "Uisce Éireann" is now used in more headlines/articles than when we previously discussed this, it is almost always qualified as "Uisce Éireann, formerly Irish Water, ..." or "Irish Water, now Uisce Éireann, ...." or similar. In very recent articles, where the "public everyman" (rather than the "company official") is quoted or targetted, "Irish Water" seems to be the name still applied. Definitely on the turn. But the official name doesn't appear to have become the WP:COMMONNAME as yet... Guliolopez (talk) 16:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Withdraw: Having been fairly considered by a number of users familiar with it, I can see there isn't a consensus to move, at least not yet. I would focus more on news sources than the person on the Luas or 46A anecdotes. Many people still talk of Dublin Corporation! I proposed this after seeing Uisce Éireann in numerous news sources this week, but as it is true that it is qualified in some with "formerly Irish Water", or some such formula, it's still marginal, so I won't press the case. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 17:15, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

It was a fair question. And the day will probably come. But when even RTÉ and the IT and Indo are still on the fence… So let’s check again mid-year. SeoR (talk) 18:34, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Addendum: I'll continue voting no to a move while I still have to go to water.ie to get to their website! :-) Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 08:59, 24 February 2024 (UTC)