Talk:Ireland/Archive 7

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Delete the "Politics" section

I see I've just found where everybody went off to. I wondered why it had gotten so quiet at talk:Republic of Ireland!

I'd like to make a Modest Proposal. Delete the Politics section, or at least reduce it to the absolute minimum such as "the island is divided politically between two jurisdictions: Ireland (state) and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. For details, see those articles". The outcome should be something like Hispaniola. --Red King 21:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and likewise the "Flags of Ireland" section. --sony-youth^talk 22:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure anyone cares about my opinion. :-) But I'd be for getting rid of at least the second paragraph of the politics section (the one that begins "Typically, the two political entities...") I'm not saying the content isn't somewhat useful, but it seems rather unencycolopedic at the moment. I'm all for deleting the Flags of Ireland section. 1) because I think the tricolor and Union Flag are more suited to the individual jurisdiction pages 2) because at quick glance one could be left with the impression that both those banners are flags of a single political entity (in the way the St. Andrews flag and Union flag both apply to Scotland, for example). Nuclare 03:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the more I think about it, I'm leaning toward the keep Politics "absolute minimum" suggestion. There's already a history section where details about the the Act of Union/the Kingships, etc. should be included.

Regardless of what happens to the Politics section in general, the "All-island institutions" section needs, at the very least, to be moved away from a Politics section. It almost seems like the info included in that section should be worked into the content of the page in a more natural fashion. For example, the sports section already mentions the all-Ireland organization of some of the sports. As much as the prospect of having a Religion section on this page is a bit frightening (I can imagine what people might try to put in there!), perhaps having such a section would be a better place to mention the organization of the churches. I'm not saying such a section should be set up JUST to mention their all-island organization, but there's something piece-meal about the 'All-island institutions' at the moment. (And the statement in there about the percentage of Catholics in both RoI and NI just seems out of place). Nuclare 04:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Does your proposal mean that we'd change the article "RoI" to Ireland (state)? (Sarah777 01:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC))

The Ireland talk page would be a strange place to propose that, now wouldn't it? Martin 19:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought Red King up above was making this Modest Proposal and I'm a sucker for good proposals! Who am I to question where Red King might want to put his suggestions? (Sarah777 00:57, 4 March 2007 (UTC))

Going back to Red King's "Modest Proposal", I agree: the politics section should be removed or drastically cut down. The sentence "Politically it is divided into..." in the lead paragraph is probably sufficient to inform uncertain readers about the political statuses of different parts of the island.--A bit iffy 07:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The broad consensus is for a drastic reduction. I'll have a go. --Red King 19:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Delete the Flags Section

The flags section is even worse. It is impossible to have such a section without getting bogged down in POV. It adds nothing of any real value. I propose that we delete it. --Red King 19:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Clarification I've started off on the wrong foot. I did not intend to say that the material as it stands is POV, rather that it has the potential to be. My intention was to say that this is very political material on what is (or at least should be) an article that describes the island and leaves the politics to other articles. I had just come from talk:Northern Ireland, where there is a major dispute about flags going on. Maybe the flags section belongs in the History of Ireland article, but it doesn't belong here. IMHO. --Red King 20:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Agree --Red King 19:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
• Disagree--There is nothing POV about the flags section. But generally, since the article is about the island, and all the political, government, (state-related) stuff is covered elsewhere, I think this article should be mostly about geography, ecology, land forms, location, etc. So I would say take out the flags(and minimise all the human institutional aspects) and reformat the article along those lines I cited, or leave it as it is.Gary Joseph 20:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: I read this that Gary agrees with the removal/transfer out, but does not agree with the reasons I gave. I accept that criticism, which is why I added the clarification above. --Red King 20:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Agree -- finally something I can agree with Red on. Bad enough having the flags in the NI section. (Sarah777 21:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC))
• Disagree (kinda) - It's only very recently (historically speaking) that the island was partitioned into two entities. The flag section would seem to be the logical place for discussing flags that are used to represent the whole island, both historically and currently. I guess one can't get away from discussing the Irish and UK flags, but they shouldn't be given the prominence they have now. Martin 00:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Yes, I understand that, but the question I'm asking is, is this the right article for it. Would you be satisfied if it were moved to History of Ireland? --Red King 20:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Agree -- 100% agree. Neither flag is a flag of Ireland as discussed in this article. One is a flag of Ireland as discussed in the RoI article, the other is the flag of the United Kingdom. What do they have to do with this article?? Ireland as discussed here does not have a flag, except possibly this. --sony-youth^talk 09:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I have moved the section verbatim to History of Ireland. --Red King 20:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Political Geography

Twomileborrisonianism

Yet another debate rages with reverts etcetera; is NI 17% of Ireland (Island) or a mere 16.75%. I think this is an issue well worth having a major row about. User:Manopingo, who seems to be a Twomileborrisonian defends 16.75 as being more accurate than 17 (I'll take his word for it).

But wouldn't 16.748394628364002837640117632564848% be more accurate still? And why stop there?

I think it was Dean Swift who write a storey about us Little Enders and Big Enders? (Sarah777 00:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC))

lol....I think 16.748394628364002837640117632564848% is a capital idea! Although, it might just be easier to say "slightly less than 17%" or some-such. Of course, then we'll have to define what we mean by "slightly less", providing appropriate references to back up how many quarters of a percent "slightly" can encompass. What fun! :) Martin 00:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

As it is written at the moment, I guess someone other than Ireland or the UK has control of 0.25% of the island. Would that be the Polish by chance? ;-) Nuclare 05:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Possibly the embassies! The US and British Embassies (especially the official residences) in Dublin are very large. However they are about to build a railway through the grounds of the British Ambassador's crib - so that should give us back something (Sarah777 09:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC))

I've put it back the way it was before I changed to avoid repeating the intro para, before we get into fractal algebra. Five sixths and one sixth, within the limits of experimental error. --Red King 20:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Northern Ireland is not a nation state and therefore it does not have a capitol city. Depending on your politics either London or Dublin is the Capitol city. You could perhaps refer to Belfast as a regional capitol. It is home to a regional assembly but is governed from Westminster, which has devolved some powers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.81.222.210 (talk) 12:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Reference no.11

Just noticed en passant. There is something wrong with ref no. 11. If I try to correct it I may do more harn than good. Best leave it - Osborne 15:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Ok - fixed!! :) Thanks for pointing it out - Alison^☺ 15:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Places of Interest

Can this list be anything more than subjective? Is there some independent source that gives a "top 10 by number of visits"? --Red King 21:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, surely the Book of Kells isn't a place. Thehappyhobo (talk) 20:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Straw poll of Republic of Ireland title change

I've opened a straw poll on support for a change to the title of the Republic of Ireland article and related articles. --sony-youth^talk 21:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Flora

Happened to be reverting some vandalism in the 'flora' section when I noticed it is utterly dire. It has a single sentence which may be nonsense so far as I know. Somebody must know enough about plants in Ireland to put a few paragraphs together????? (Sarah777 15:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC))

Yes I do - a bit. But I dont like the way references are mixed up!Osborne 16:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Osborne. I noticed that you have reverted my change and restored a "list off introduced plants" in the Flora section. Per my note in the edit summary, this is likely way too specific for a general Ireland article. I am going to reword again, and - per my note - if you want to create a "Biota of Ireland" or "Flora of Ireland" (where such a list would be much better suited), then please do. Cheers. Guliolopez 17:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Where you think the algae should be noted - I'm not sure. Some phycologists not consider algae as part of the "Flora". I don't mind, however the Flora and flora of Ireland is a bit confused to my mind as the Flora is "rerouted". I will probably let the whole site alone an stick to the sites I was working on. Osborne 08:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I have added a bit about flora. It should be enough to make a start. See here [1] Gold_heart 21:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Well it is a start, jolly good. I'm sorry I will be resiging my post at the end of this month and without a computer can't add to Wikipedia. However I love your photograph - the English built well in Ireland! I don't know how to put photos on wikipedia. Can you teach me - within the next week!!! Best contact me on my talk page if you wish. I may not look at this again! Osborne 11:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

O'Connell Street was built in the 1920s, by Irish people. It had been flattened in 1916 by the English.18:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

References//Footnotes

These are confused. References are mixed up. Oh please sort them out - it's too much for me!Osborne 16:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

History

I'd like to make some edits under history, and I want to float the topics here first.

1) The reference to a system of "apartheid" under the Penal laws strikes me as not representing a neutral point of view, even if there is a reference for it. There are many cases in history where groups (often majorities) have systematically been disadvantaged in law and in practice, and the logic for specifically choosing to equate Penal Law Ireland with apartheid South Africa seems to me to be about rhetoric and politics, rather than a close similarity. On a practical level, Catholics could (and in many cases did) change their religion, while the disenfranchised majority in South Africa could not change their ancestry. Irish Catholics were not restricted as to where they could live. A reference to Catholics being disadvantaged systematically under the Penal Law regime should suffice. There would then be no need for the reference quoted.

2) There is a problem with the section on the impact of the Vikings on Ireland here (and indeed in some other Wikipedia articles too). It is that warfare and raiding were common within Ireland at the time, so that the impression given of a peaceful land afflicted by invaders is seriously inaccurate. For balance, the article needs a reference to warfare within Ireland at the time.

3) The reference to bribery in securing the Act of Union, while accurate, seems like unnecessary detail in a summary article such as this. Including such a politically-loaded detail in a summary seems to me to be non-neutral. I propose deleting it.

4) The reference to the failure of attempts to achieve Home Rule as causing "the eclipse of moderate nationalism by militant separatism" is, at best, non-neutral POV, and arguably demonstrably false. A Home Rule Act was passed in 1912 (although there was never an opportunity to implement it), and up to the time of the Easter Rising in 1916 non-militant separatism, whether of the Home Rule or Sinn Fein variety, remained clearly in the political ascendent among the nationalist population. What then brought militant separatism to the fore depends on which historian you happen to believe. I propose editing to just say that militant separatism eclipsed moderate nationalism, eliminating the commentary on the cause.

Haroldsx 16:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

missing several topics...

There is great need to elaborate on the Flora section, its very... bare. Also the currency of Ireland should be clearer, many researchers using this encyclopedia may not be familiar with the euro system and which contries use it. Although this information is easily attainable in other places, finding Ireland's national motto was impossible. In personal opinion I prefer a clear list over tedious paragraphs. Convienince for both you as the creators and the readers would be best acomplished with some form of a "T" chart.

                                With Concern of Convienince, 
                                            A Critic

Spanish

Please, the link to spanish language is not "Isla de Irlanda" (ireland, but the island), is "Irlanda" (es:Irlanda). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.152.176.48 (talk) 21:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC).

Demography: Ancient migrations, Scottish

I changed the suggestion that the initial inhabitants of Ireland were from central Europe from a "theory" to an "idea" (hypothesis would work too), since it has been clearly demonstrated (Oppenheimer's "Origins of the British, chap 2) that Ireland's ancient demic influx came from Spain/France and not Europe via England etc.

Also, is there a significant number of Scottish here? Anyone got census figures? Apollo Crua 08:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

THE FLAG - Hypocritical!

Why is the former standard of the government of northern ireland used as the "de facto flag of northern ireland" yet the Irish tricolour, the flag designed to represent the island, the flag which is obviously the "de facto" flag of Ireland, not used on this page?

There has been a very biased feel to every Irish article, whether it's the island of the the north, on this website for a while, and it's quite ridiculous. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bbx118 (talk • contribs) 18:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

Firstly, the Northern Ireland flag is not used on the Northern Ireland page (thanks to an overtly political campaign to have it removed). Secondly, there were many flags designed to represent all of Ireland including the Saint Patrick's flag, the four-provinces flag and the harp flag. The fact is that the island of Ireland is not a political entity so has no flag. This article is about the island, not the state. beano 23:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Redesign of the "Irish states template"

I'm proposing a redesign of the "Irish states template", you can see my proposal at the talk page there. Please let me know what you think, good, bad, or indifferent - and also suggestion to improve it. --sony-youth^pléigh 08:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

History of Ireland - section?

Just a thought: should the history of Ireland section be divided into sections for legibility? I wouldn't know where to start myself, but is looks poor - some sub-headings and pictures who liven it up and make it more pleasant to read. Apollo Crua 14:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm going away for awhile and won't be on wikipedia so please feel free to make any modifications to paragraphs, sentences or external wikilinks that you think are important concerning the history of Ireland. I'm new to wikipedia and put some sentences and paragraphs in which I thought were important and recently a picture got overlapped on a few letters of a sentence that I put in. Maybe adding a picture of Ceide fields since it was a primary important neolithic site from which the present Celtic speaking Gaels got thier language in addition to more Celtic speaking Gaels from Galicia(Spain) who, over time from the neolithic to bronze age, made Ireland a Celtic speaking community. (old Irish archaeology which is somehow linked to the Basques or most likely Galicia Spain) [[2]] Karohatch 01:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

ireland

hey, doesn't ireland have more to give than just body? It isn't talked about very much, though lots of people are irish. Ireland is a very rich wealthy piece of the world and it needs more sites. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.236.250.206 (talk) 23:00, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Amen!

Climate section additions

Hi all. Any thoughts on the latest additions to the climate section. I was tempted to remove them but thought I'd check first for some kind of consensus. In my opinion, they're not quite appropriate for the article as:

• the key points are already covered in the "body" of the climate section (highest/lowest temp/etc)
• those that aren't smell like "trivia" to me, and may not be entirely relevant to a high level Ireland article (Where/when on the island the highest ever hourly rainfall was recorded?)
• there are no sources cited,
• the formatting isn't per MOS, and
• and (last - and probably least) a list at this point in the article doesn't sit right. (At least - that's my opinion - not quoting any guildelines with this one)

At first I thought about just reverting. Then I thought about trying to merge some of the important points into the "body" of the climate section. But I couldn't figure out how to (given the "trivia" nature of some of the points.) Any thoughts/suggestions? Guliolopez 19:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello -

Average temperatures in the island vary from -4°C (min) to 11°C (max) in January, and 9°C (min) to 23°C (max) in July.

One of the coldest nights for the past few years was recorded on Monday, 5 February 2007 when air temperatures in Dublin dipped to -5ºC (23ºF) with parts of Ulster recording lows of -9ºC (15.8ºF).

I'd delete the above, because it is simply wrong!

The "list" below is factually correct and is the sort of data frequently given in a summary of a country's weather; it might look less 'trivial' if compressed and boxed in some way.

Highest recorded air temperature: 33.3 ºC (92 ºF) at Kilkenny Castle, County Kilkenny on June 26, 1887.

Lowest recorded air temperature: -19.1 ºC (-2 ºF) at Markree Castle, County Sligo on January 16, 1881...etcetera.

These do give (to folk interested in this topic) a reasonably good feel for the climatic parameters. (Sarah777 20:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC))

I'm still not sure about the value of these stats.

I tried "consolidating" into a paragraph, but it remains something of an impenetrable stat fest:

Other statistics show that the driest year on record was 1887, with only 356.6mm of rain recorded at Glasnevin, while the longest period of "absolute drought" was in Limerick where there was no recorded rainfall over 38 days from 3 April to 10 May 1938. Conversely, the greatest monthly rainfall was 790.0mm in the Cummeragh Mountains, County Waterford in October 1996, the greatest annual rainfall was 3964.9mm in the Ballaghbeena Gap in 1960, the greatest hourly rainfall was 97mm in Orra Beg, County Antrim in August 1980, and the greatest daily rainfall was 243.5mm at Cloore Lake, County Kerry on 18 September 1993.

I still have two main problems with this data. Firstly, my reading of the "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information" guideline (particularly "that something is 100% true does not automatically mean it is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia") suggests to me that (in particular) the hourly/daily/monthly rainfall stats represent irrelevant over-supply of info.

Beyond that, when I went looking for corroberation of these stats, I found that the list (in its current form) is a complete "copy and paste" job from the Met Eireann website.

So, given that the info is available elsewhere (and can be provided in the ref) I'm going to do is DUMP the hourly/weekly/monthly stuff, and just leave:

Other statistics show that the greatest recorded annual rainfall was 3964.9mm in the Ballaghbeena Gap in 1960. Conversely, the driest year on record was 1887, with only 356.6mm of rain recorded at Glasnevin. (While the longest period of "absolute drought" was in Limerick where there was no recorded rainfall over 38 days during April and May of 1938). [3]

Comments welcome before I do so. Guliolopez 19:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and dump! I'm certainly not going to battle for the stats...(Sarah777 19:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC))

Demographics section inaccurate

Some of the figures quoted in the Demographics section are inaccurate.

Their is a figure quoted for 180,000 Polish people being here. The latest CSO census figure has the number of Polish immigrants at 63,000 if I remember correctly. Likewise, mentioning the "high number" of Chinese immigrants while omitting the larger number of Americans is a bit odd. And the biggest immigrant nationality - the British - don't even get a mention!

Likewise, commentary on why immigrants choose to immigrate sounds like propaganda. A lot of Irish people emigrated to the UK in the past for example but for most it was because there was work there and it was English speaking, not because of the "high standard of living" (If it were just standard of living, people would presumably have all gone en masse to Germany or Denmark).

Also the figures for the City populations are questionable - what exactly is the "Greater Dublin Area"? These days that could include all the commuter towns, such as Navan, Blessington or even Mullingar and Carlow! The population of a city is the people that are inside the city's boundaries and not those of the neighbouring counties as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.125.79.200 (talk) 01:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

Irish Culture

I am working on a project, and need to know these things about Ireland. A) Average high/low temperatures in June-August B) Population C) Typical Irish slang— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.94.145 (talk)

For A) Check [4] B)[5] C) I don't think the Irish use slang. Regards (Sarah777 17:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC))

For slang, look here (its the first hit on Google for "Irish slang"). There are also several books. Look up Hiberno-English for English as it is spoken in Ireland. For a detailed examination of Hiberno-English see here, for a nice overview see here. --sony-youth^pléigh 18:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Chips and beans with a boiled egg.

Sony, that link you gave seems a bit of a bum steer if you'll excuse the slang! Did you read it?!! Like the "chubbing up" which is apparently what some Irish folk describe eating a full breakfast, according to Wiki! Mind; the photos in that article makes me VERY hungry! (Sarah777 21:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC))

I only glanced through it - yeah! saw "chubbing up" in the Full Breakfast page. Moved it to trivia and marked it as dubious. You're Dublin-based, yeah? I thought it was something what the trendy kids were saying. Wouldn't know myself being from down the country, like. --sony-youth^pléigh 22:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Irish neutrality during World War II

The article Irish neutrality during World War II has been nominated for deletion. Please add your opinion to the discussion on AfD. --sony-youth^pléigh 22:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposed change of intro

The intro is pretty anemic, straining itself to avoid pov and ends as nothing. My proposed intro would be something like follows. Some minor tweaks.

Ireland (Irish: Éire; Ulster Scots: Airlann) is the third largest island in Europe and the twentieth largest in the world. It lies to the northwest of Continental Europe. It is surrounded by hundreds of islands and islets. To the east of Ireland, separated by the Irish Sea, is the island of Great Britain. Politically, the state known as Ireland, covers five sixths of the island, and Northern Ireland, a part of the United Kingdom, occupies the northeastern sixth of the island. The name 'Ireland' derives from the name Ériu (in modern Irish, Éire) with the addition of the Germanic word 'land'.
Gold♣heart 23:19, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Ireland is also the second biggest island in the British Isles - why did you remove that fact, Goldheart? The British Isles is the most immediate geographical entity to Ireland - failing to mention it in the article just looks silly and is surely a breach of WP:NPOV and possibly WP:NOT#CENSOR. Waggers 08:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It (without BI), seems the pretty standard introduction from the Google searches of "Ireland" and "geography". Introducing BI into the first para, is confusing, and is often disputed. The whole object is to make the intro clear and simple. To introduce a "quasi political" term into a geography page could well addle the reader further. Although BI gets many hits in Google, in all reality, it is not a commonplace term. Most maps don't allude to BI at all, and simply refer to Great Britain, Ireland, etc. This was discussed last year, as per archives. Also there are 100s of other articles about islands around Great Britain which fail to mention BI in their introductory paragraphs, articles that I have never edited. Here are some examples.

Northern Isles, ** Orkney, ** Shetland, ** Fair Isle, ** Lindisfarne, ** Farne Islands, ** Mersea Island, ** Isle of Sheppey, ** Portsmouth Islands, ** Hayling Island, ** Portsea Island, ** Isle of Wight, ** Isle of Portland, ** St Michael's Mount, ** Isles of Scilly, ** Islands of the Bristol Channel, ** Lundy, ** Steep Holme, ** Flat Holme, ** Islands in St George's Channel** Caldey Island, ** Skokholm, ** Skomer, ** Ramsey Island, ** Bardsey Island, ** Anglesey, ** Islands of Furness, ** Islands of the lower Firth of Clyde, ** Isle of Arran, ** Bute, ** the Cumbraes, ** Hebrides, ** Inner Hebrides, ** Small Isles, ** Outer Hebrides, ** St Kilda, * List of islands of England, * List of islands of Isle of Man, * List of islands of Scotland, * List of islands of Wales, * Isle of Man, * Channel Islands, * Rockall Gold♥ 16:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

On the basis that British Isles is a "quasi-political" term and therefore inappropriate in a geography page, would the same apply to the use of Europe with reference to Switzerland? hillocks 14:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Title for {{British Isles}} template

I understand that there's some controversy over the term "British Isles" (and I don't think I'll ever understand why, but that's a separate issue) but the term "Ireland, Great Britain & the Isle of Man" does not describe the same thing. "British Isles" includes all the islands in the group, whereas "Ireland, Great Britain & the Isle of Man" includes just three of them. Any ideas for a better, more inclusive title?

My personal view is that it should just be left at "British Isles" since that's the name of the article on the island group, and it's been discussed to death there with no consensus for change ever being established. It seems strangely inconsistent to refer to the same thing using different terms in different places on the encyclopaedia. Failing to use the term "British Isles" just because it's controversial is a breach of Wikipedia policy. Waggers 12:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Consider having a look at Talk:Ireland/Archive_5 for the discussions about this template, its title, and the complexities of using a label to describe the complex relationship (cultural, historic and geographic) between these islands. There are also other discussions in other archived versions of the Ireland talkpage. In short, (while the current label does exclude some of the islands of the archipelego) the reason that the template is managed differently in the Ireland article is because it is the only constituent covered by the banner which contains substantive communities who do not consider the label "British" to be appropriate. Guliolopez 14:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there any reason why the title of the template needs to be the same as the title of the article? Does the title of the template even need to be a name, let alone the most common name? Can it not be a description in the same way that the article on Ireland uses a descriptive title?

I don't mean this discussion to blur over into discussing that the British Isles article should be renamed - that (in my mind) quite clearly should stay titled as it is. "Great Britain, Ireland and the Isle of Man" isn't the best description, for sure - "British Islands and Ireland" fits perfectly. I'd support a change to that (specifically, and only, for the template). If you feel its important to use the same title for the template across the encyclopedia, then I'd support that title being used througout, as well. Although - despite it being a perfectly legitimate description - I think you'll find that it will be tough fight to convince other communities to accept it (WP:NOT?). I'll support you if you want to take up that mantle, but understand also if you choose to shy away from the challenge. --sony-youth^pléigh 07:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

"British Islands and Ireland" is a great alternative name - the only problem with it is that it would exclude the islands of Ireland that form part of the Republic - but it's far more inclusive than "Ireland, Great Britain & the Isle of Man". The name of the template itself doesn't really matter (you could move it to {{adslkjadskjasdfjakljckwdcw}} apart from the WP:NAME breach but the contents would stay the same!). My concern was really that it seems strange to have a link to the British Isles article without referring to it by that name. I certainly accept it's a sensitive issue but equally doesn't the status quo breach WP:NOT#CENSOR and WP:NPOV? (The former is fairly clear; with the latter the Ireland article should be written from a neutral point of view not an Irish point of view). Having said all that, it's not really a big deal and I don't want to alienate all our Irish editors through a silly dispute - but it sticks out like a sore thumb and (in my view) such inconsistencies make Wikipedia look a bit silly. Waggers 08:10, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't have imagined the "Ireland" as excluding the islands off Ireland in the Republic, as I would have read both as political terms: the British Islands referring to the areas of the British Isles under British Crown jurisdiction, Ireland referring to the areas of the British Isles under Irish government jurisdiction.

I can see where you're coming from re: NOT and NPOV, but what I meant by WP:NOT#CENSOR was that if that is a valid title for the template (leaving aside arguments that the title of the template should be the same as the title of the article), why would it not be acceptable across the encyclopedia? I my opinion, I don't think that it would be accepted by other communities because they would not accept any phraseology other than "British Isles." That too is breaches WP:NOT#CENSOR.

Regarding, NPOV - the argument here is that the term British Isles carries with it a certain POV about the relationship of the islands and their peoples. That is does so is argued also in the "real world" to the extent that:

• It is not recognised by one government in the islands, and its potential use is threatened by formal objected
• It has been removed from school atlases in the same jurisdiction
• A pan-island sporting team has been renamed itself (ostensibly to avoid it offense to a section of its team members and fans)
• Long-winded euphimisms are employed to get around using it in relations between our peoples. Politicians from all areas of the islands acknowledge issues with the term and seek avoid using it so as not to cause offense or imply a lack of neutrality.
• A large number of historicans and political commenators from all parts of the islands describe it as an outdated and political-loaded term.

Clearly, you will of course agree, in the "real world" it is understood to carry a certain POV. In any case, It might be worthwhile to remember that British Isles does not pass the "name test" for naming conflicts:

1. Most commonly used name in English: Yes
2. Current undisputed official name of entity: No (disputed by Irish government)
3. Current self-identifying name of entity: No (not used by British-Irish Council), or, at best, N/A

Personally, I would see the current solution to the template name as a quite a generous compromise on the part of some Irish editors. By seeing it as only a local-name issue, allows those unwilling to asknowledge issues with the name quite a large degree of breathing space and freedom. Whether this is, in fact, worth the trouble ... as the person who originally suggest it, I'm beginning to change my mind. --sony-youth^pléigh 08:51, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Awww ...

What happened to the Gallery? While it might not have been the most informative element of the page, I think it showed a good breadth of the island. It was just a positive thing and many (all?) of the pictures in it showed quite interesting things. A picture, a thousand words (a million monkeys) sort of thing. --sony-youth^pléigh 14:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed it as I felt it was a bit unencyclopedic. Someone else has replaced it. In my opinion, there are other ways to see (and display) image galleries. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia. --John 05:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

It's more a Places of Interest section than a gallery. I propose that it should be named such. Some very interesting pages linked from that section. -User:86.42.167.203|86.42.167.203 14:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Hate to bring it up again, but....

Can someone give me a brief reason why the current location of the article on the island, being where it is, doesn't blatantly violate WP:NC? It says:

Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.

Now in the case of Republic of Ireland its more common name is irrelevant - if it is Ireland it conflicts so would need another name, if its Republic of Ireland, it doesn't conflict so it doesn't matter. However, in the case of the island, whether or not the use of the name Ireland is more common for the state, or for the island, it absolutely can't be denied that this name does conflict with a name used for the State. Regardless of people's opinions, I still fail to see why this isn't just a case of enforcing policy. Not to mention the fact that I could easily dig up over 50 examples, quite quickly, of incorrect links to this article which should be to the State. Again, I'm just wondering why people think the current setup, regardless of preference, doesn't violate policy (not a general debate on the issue - I've seen the archived ones) . - ^Рэд_хот^{(t • c • e)} 10:07, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

"use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things" - so does the name of the island conflict with the name of the state, or does the name of the state conflict with the name of the island?

Hey wait! ... "Republic of Ireland" is quite a common 'name' for the state and doesn't conflict with the name of the island. Hey presto! Problem solved. (See long drawn out discussion in archives of Talk:Republic of Ireland and most recent straw poll). --sony-youth^pléigh 10:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

But that means that the island should be taken as the more common use for Ireland and I don't think there are any sources for that (if there are, then thats fine). Also, the policy is that the article name, doesn't conflict with the name of other things, not that it doesn't conflict with the article title of other things (therefore this article's name still conflicts with the name of other things). - ^Рэд_хот^{(t • c • e)} 12:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It assumes nothing of the kind. Read the piece you cited again: "... use the the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." It does not say, "use the most common name, full stop". It says "use the most common name that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." Republic of Ireland is the most common name that does not conflict with the name of any other thing. The name of Ireland-the-island, I'm afraid, will always conflict with the name of the state.

I don't understand what you mean by the last part. In any case, this sounds like a little too much WikiLawyering to be healthy. How's about a rational what, why and how you would like a change? --sony-youth^pléigh 12:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The best thing to do would be to make Ireland a disambig page and move the Island to Ireland (island) --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 13:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Why would it be the best thing to do? --sony-youth^pléigh 15:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Because both the country and the island have the same name I fail to see why a landmass should be given preference over the state. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 15:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Funny then that the state is named after the landmass because it is the opinion of the state in question that the landmass does, in fact, take priority. In any case, sounds a bit like an "I don't like" it argument. Care to argue from our readers point of view? --sony-youth^pléigh 15:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Because the state is more important than the landmass look at Australia the state is given prefrence over the landmass Australia (continent) --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 16:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct Barry. I'm convinced the current "settlement" is based on neither policy nor common sense. (Sarah777 19:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC))

Ireland may refer to:

• a state, so-called by its own constitution, but better known as "The Republic of Ireland", "The Irish Republic", "The Free State", "The 26 Counties", "The Whore of Babylon" or "The Soyth"
• an island lying north-west of the continent of Europe, sometimes claimed as part of the British Isles, which gets up a lot of people's noses

Do we not have enough hassles as it is without adding a disambiguation page? Scolaire 13:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

! Well Scolaire, I'd normally respond in similarly robust terms - but (see below) that would get me into trouble! Seriously though, I'd totally support a disambig page. Though now that we in RoI seem all cosy with bombers in Shannon I guess "The Whore of Babylon" moves up the list of candidates. (Sarah777 06:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC))

RFC/USER discussion concerning Sarah777

A request for comments has been filed concerning the conduct of Sarah777. The discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Sarah777, where you may want to participate. --sony-youth^pléigh 09:05, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Random Question

what would i be required to do before moving to Ireland from America?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.124.42.71 (talk)

Contact one of these people and you're all set to go. --sony-youth^pléigh 22:36, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

National Holiday of Ireland

Hello,

maybe I missed it in the text, but is the national holiday of Ireland, St. Patricks Day on 17th of march, really not meantioned? In the german wikipedia on Ireland, you have this day already in the head of the text. Binninger 10:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)--

Yes. --sony-youth^pléigh 11:04, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

84.65.124.10 23:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)