Talk:Ioudaios

Singular?

Hi. I'm not 100% sure about the notability of this as a seperate article from Jew (word) (?) or Judean, but if it is a separate article, wouldn't it be singular Ioudaios? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi IIO, in order to get sure, can I suggest you read the plethora of external references listed in the article? As to plurality, the article is about the term used to describe the people, not just one person. Do you feel strongly? Oncenawhile (talk) 10:10, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

That's my point, the fact that the word is discussed Jew (word) (?) or Judean, doesn't make me sure of the notability of this as a seperate article from Jew (word) (?) or Judean. I don't particularly feel strongly about plural, I'm just of the impression WP uses singulars, maybe WP:Title doesn't say this? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:23, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Moved to singular. Normal on WP. Linking to wiktionary replaces the need for: [ In the plural i(Ἰουδαῖοι) (as per the Ancient Greek nominative plural case; also Ἰουδαῖῶν (Ioudaiōn, genitive), Ἰουδαῖοῖς (Ioudaiois, dative) and Ἰουδαῖούς (Ioudaious, accusative) in other forms) is an ancient Greek term used ...] In ictu oculi (talk) 18:37, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Not just Greek

Not sure why this is restricted to Greek, when all the relevant ancient languages (Hebrew, Greek, and Latin) had only one word (יהודי / Ιουδαιος / Iudaeus) to express the concepts 1] "Judahite" (i.e. member of the tribe of Judah by patrilineal genealogical descent); 2] "Judean" (i.e. inhabitant of the region or province of Judea); and 3] "Jew" (practitioner of the monotheistic religion originally based in Judea)... AnonMoos (talk) 03:55, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, which would suggest a merge into Jew (word). In ictu oculi (talk) 05:23, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

It's following the RS on the topic. If you can find RS discussing this around other languages, then we should discuss. If you want to understand why, you should read the RS in the external references section. Don't forget that Greek is the language of the Christian new testament, the language of the oldest surviving old Hebrew bible (the LXX) and the language of both ancient Jewish historians Philo and Josephus. Also remember that the concept of being "Jewish" dates from the Greek period. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:52, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

But does it need to be in a separate article from Jew (word)? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:13, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

The RS in the external references are solely devoted to this word. If it's good enough for scholars, it's good enough for us. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:45, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

But they don't, all those articles discuss Ioudaioi in the context of Jew or Judean. What's the point of an article about the Greek word? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:23, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

There is a meaningful scholarly debate about what the term Ioudaios means. This is not the same as the question of what the word Jew means - their meanings only partially overlap.

If you follow your logic through, you are saying that ethos and goyim should be one article called "non-Jews". Also by your logic, we would also need to have this content duplicated under Judean (word).

There is enough good content here to merit its own article. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:44, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

There is no Wikipedia article on ethnoi (I presume Ethos above was a typo). If you are asking why Goy and Gentile have separate articles, that's a good question, probably because of WP:POVFORK. There is a meaningful scholarly debate about what the term Ioudaios means in Greek texts, but that's meaningful scholarly debate about what the term Jew (word) means in Greek texts. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:54, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

To be honest I don't really object to this article provided it's done in accordance with an allowable WP:CONTENTFORK and properly linked from Jew (word). And so that it's more than a dicdef but is actually more Terms for Jews in Greek literature. At the moment this article has no copy/sources for how/when/why "Jew" might be used rather than "Hebrew" or "Israelite" in any particular Greek text and what this tells us about Hellenistic Judaism and pagan Greek/Roman attitudes to Jews/Judaism. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:00, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok. To your last point, that's right but that's not supposed to be in the scope of the article - you added it to the lead. I don't understand your edit (so will be reverting it). The key issues i have are (1) this article is about the debate around the translation of Ioudaios, so why bring the separate concept of Hebrews into it?; and (2) the whole point of the article is to explain the translation debate, so having a first sentence saying that Ioudaios=Jew would contradict the entire rest of the article. Suffice to say, i feel very strongly that these two major issues make your edit detrimental to the article. Oncenawhile (talk) 16:01, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

(1) My reason is explained above. I have now underlined it. (2) that is WP:OR. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:34, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry but with all due respect, i have no idea what you are talking about. There are many reputable sources in the article, all of which i have read thoroughly. The lead of this article is consistent with the sources, whereas your (1) is mixing points, and (2) is in direct contradiction with the sources. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:12, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I've done some underlining of my own - see your comment above on 18:23, 5 April 2012. Your edit is in direct contradiction with your own earlier statement. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:25, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Differentiation in Hebrew

Poliocretes, can you clarify your edit re יהודאי? I thought it was actually a Jewish Babylonian Aramaic word, rather than Hebrew? Oncenawhile (talk) 23:20, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't expect he's watching the page. You might want to provide a dictionary source yourself. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:15, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Sure. Take this article from Ha'aretz, in which Israel Finkelstein, one of Israel's most prominent archaeologists, discusses Khirbet Qeiyafa. The word יהודאי (Judean) appears in the article 12 times. יהודי (Jew) appears twice. The sentence "in modern Hebrew ... the same word is still used for both Jews and Judeans." is therefore a mistake. Poliocretes (talk) 07:22, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with you. I have always understood "יהודי" to refer even today for both Jews and Judeans, particularly in a political sense (e.g. the Yesha Council). Certainly historically that was the case. I agree that the originally-aramaic word "יהודאי" is sometimes used for Judean to avoid confusion. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:51, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Implications about belief?

> translating it as "Jews" has implications about the beliefs of the people

How is this the case with the biblical era any more than with, say for example, today? Jews who are secular, atheists or who informally hold thelogical beliefs outside of Judaism are still generally regarded as Jews by themselves and others as Jews - even formal apostasy does not strip Jews of their Jewish status in Halakhah and often in wider society. I would suggest that the notions of "Judaeans" and "The Jewish People" are identical and have remained consistently identical since the Second Temple era. The only difference is that, over the course of time since 135AD, it became less commonsense to consider Jews in terms of being Judaean nationals as, until modern times, only a skeleton population remained in the homeland.
Any notion of Jews as being "a religious group" is ultimately a reflection of ancient notions of national identity and even citizenship as being defined by one's worship of the national/city gods. Herod Agrippa II, speaking in Alexandria in 37AD, described the Jewish diaspora as "Judaean colonies" and ultimately after the homeland fell, Jewish/Judaean civilzation continued in the "colonies", like the "Roman" Byzantine Empire after the fall of Rome. 62.190.148.115 (talk) 13:45, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Because today, Jews are an ethnoreligious group with its own ethnic religion/culture. Back then, this was not so clear. There was no Judaism religion in the strict sense of the word. The word would then possibly not refer to everyone from Judea, as difference in religion was all around the place. The issue translators have lies in that accuracy. We are not going to go against the sources. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 09:13, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

There were no "ism"-s generally, most languages had no such structure back then, but there was an abstract concept of a Jewish/Judaean national religion (or at least a Jewish/Judaean denomination of a wider Israelite religion, with Samaritanism as another denomination). Back then, some Jews worshipped stone idols instead of God and nowadays some Jews worship pop idols instead of God, but in both cases they are still regarded as Jews. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose. And speaking of French, it's only because of a quirk of medieval French - the casual shortening of "gieudeen" to "gieu" that the English word "Jew" (and modern French "juif") have evolved apart from "Judaean". Practically every other language in the world has retained the "D" in their name for Jews, thus minimalising any possible scope for distinction. 62.190.148.115 (talk) 10:49, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

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