Talk:Igor Stravinsky/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Biography out of sequence

Small issue: the fourth to last paragraph in the biography jumps back in time, from the 1920s to a trip to Paris in 1911. Also, that trip is said to be in 1910 in the second paragraph.

I would say this is a large issue, the biography is totally out of sequence and is practically incomprehensible.--Dmz5 07:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I will make an attempt to address the issue; there is a fair amount of detail in the four books of conversations with Robert Craft which I have. Also, there is stuff in the biography section which doesn't belong there - comment on evolution of musical style during his work for the Ballet Russe for instance. --Stephen Burnett 13:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Resting place

Okay, exactly where is he buried?

In the ground. -- Tarquin 09:40 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC) (sorry... couldn't resist ;-)

Hi DW and Tarquin, the article is correct: San Michele. I think I wrote or amended that bit, can't remember now. I've seen the grave, in fact I went specially to say hello and thanks for all the great tunes. If I can find and scan a piccy I might add it to the article. Rather sweetly, Diaghelev is (as far as I recall) practically next door. Someone had left him a pair of little ballet shoes when I was there. btw Tarquin's daft remark is not as daft as it might seem because on San Michele (a) lots of people are not buried in the ground so much as in sort of left luggage lockers half way up a wall, (seems weird to me but obivously a cultural thing you can get used to, expecially if you are dead at the time) and (b) people who have been buried donot necessarily stay buried all that long unless they are famous or have paid out a load of money or both - "ordinary" burials are evicted after some years so that the grave can be reused (see previous "seems weird to me" parentheses all over again). As you can imagine, being an island, it's not like there's a lot of spare space ... :) Nevilley 19:13 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

Aha! I see what you mean - at the top of the article he's in San Michele, at the bottom in Tikhvin. He gets around a bit!

I will try to check but I know I saw something at SM that said it was his grave. I wonder if it is one of the tastless cases where different bits are in different places - heart or head or something?? Google shows very few for him in St Petersburg but then that is not the sole authority ... I will have a try and report back! Nevilley 19:41 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

Right, I am going to stick my neck out and say that I think the one in St Petersburg is his Dad, Fyodor Ignatyevich. On my modest research this looks most likely. See for example this page at Findagrave. Unfortunately the user who made the change was not logged in (64.x.x.x) so it's not easy to check back with them. So I am going to change it and see if anyone minds. Ido think it's a little unfortunate that he was left with two places of burial and no explanation but, ho hum ... :) Nevilley 23:31 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

While translating this article for the German Wikipedia I noticed that it is very similar to http://www.basicmusic.net/MusicianDisplay.php/musn/51/. It would be nice if the original author(s) could add a statement here that the webpage's text was used with permission and does not infringe copyright (Wikipedia:Copyrights) (or did www.basicmusic.net copy the article from Wikipedia?). --129.13.64.204 11:36 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes, they copied it from us (I checked the gradual history). They probably don't have to give the source (that, in this case, being Wikipedia), but not sure why people don't or wouldn't give citation. It's just one line, not even a sentence. --Menchi 11:45 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

More music

I read the entry and I am a bit embarassed: too much about the man too little about his music. The anecdotal bits are fine, and amusing, but he is noted for his music not his affairs or copyright difficulties. Anyone like to tray a hand at adding some sort of evaluation of the music? TadPiotr

Do something if you're embarrassed. Inaction is gonna keep you embarrassed forever. :-) --Menchi 21:49 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I think that the list of works could do with being wikified, where we have articles on a particular work. We shouldn't assume that everyone looking at the list of works has already read through the article and noticed which works were linked there ;) Any objections? Markalexander100 11:38, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• Go for it. Marlowe 17:00, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

oiseau de feu/help

anyone can help me understanding this.....

1910, going to Paris to attend the premiere of his ballet L'oiseau de feu (The Firebird). During his stay in the city, he composed three major works for the Ballets Russes—L'oiseau de feu, Petrushka (1911),

so, or he went to attend the premiere of that ballet, or he wrote it during his stay...

thanks))), good night --joana 22:50, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

and, moreover, l'oiseau de feu is among his works of the first russian period, so, when did he write it?????

--joana 23:24, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Fixed. He completed The Firebird in 1910, then went to Paris and wrote the others.[1] Mark¹ 14:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Famous Quote on Plagiarism

There's been a quote attributed to Stravinsky, something akin to: "Bad composers paraphrase, great composers steal" or SOMETHING like that. Anyone know the exact quote? If a good source can be provided, it'd make a nice addition too. Melodia Chaconne 9 July 2005 19:08 (UTC)

I've normally heard it in a version attributed to T.S. Eliot: "Good poets borrow; great poets steal", or with minor variations on that (sometimes the good poets "imitate", sometimes they're not good but "mediocre" or "bad", and so on). I don't know of a source for either. It wouldn't surprise me if there are similar quotes attributed to famous architects, dancers, flimmakers, painters... --Camembert 14:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I am familiar with: "Good composers plagiarize, great composers steal." Can't find a source for any variant yet. Hyacinth 07:41, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

-Indeed this quote is commonly attributed to Stravinsky, but incorrectly, as he never said it. It was in fact the aforementioned Elliot.

Orchestrated Riot

When studying the Rite of Spring, I remember reading somewhere that Diaghilev strategically positioned different demographics to reinforce the riotousness of the riot. If that makes sense. Can anyone corroborate that? I think it's worth including. - Leon...

According to "The Lives of the Great Composers" by Harold C. Schonberg, the exact opposite was case:

• Hardly anybody in the audience was prepared for a score of such dissonance and ferocity, such complexity and such rhythmic oddity. Nobody connected with the production had the faintest idea that the music would produce a visceral reaction. As soon as the bassoon ended its phrase in the high register, at the very opening of the ballet, laughter broke out. Soon there were whistles and catcalls. Nobody could hear the music. Diaghilev had the electricians switch the house lights off and on, in an effort to restore order. Nijinsky, in the wings, yelled the rhythms to the dancers. ..... JackofOz 11:45, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

New painting of Stravinsky, top of the page

Who is the painter? That should be added to the caption.--Wormsie 19:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

what about Tchaikovsky?

I think there should be something about his links to Tchaikovsky. From what I can make out from other sources Stravinsky was a bit obsessed with him?? but I can't find much about there links other that Stravinsky saw Tchaikovsky before he died. Anyone know any info about this please add it in.

Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 10:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Removed from criticism

• "'Never shall this foul music be played in my country again.' 2001, Kim Jong Il, Dear Leader of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea."
• "Perhaps Stravinsky's strongest critic was the 20th century writer Jacques de la Barin, who famously compared Stravisnky's "Rite of Spring" to the sound of an orchestra composed of a locomotive, diesel engine and artillery fire playing in dissonance. When Stravinsky was nominated for the Legion D'Honneur, de la Barin wrote the French prime minister and threatened to commit suicide."

I removed the above paragraphs from the criticism section because, though they are hilarious, I'm unable to verify them. Hyacinth 10:07, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Place of marriage to Vera

The article says that Igor married Vera in 1940 in New York. Most sources say that they were married on 1940-03-09 in Bedford, Massachusetts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.68.134.1 (talk • contribs) 14:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

If you think that's correct, you can change it and provide a verifiable source by typing [source url here]. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 02:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Note, you type the [source url here] right after the statement, like this.[2] It's not the best way of referencing, but it's the simplest. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 02:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

External link to works by/about Stravinsky on WorldCat?

I propose adding an external link to Works/by about 'Stravinsky, Igor 1882-1971' at WorldCat Identities. This would allow readers easily to locate library holdings in libraries worldwide through the library union catalog WorldCat. I feel this would be useful: what do others think? Dsp13 14:30, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I do appreciate that your suggestion is entirely well-intentioned. However, WP:EL says:

• "Links should be kept to a minimum".
• "An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a copy of the work".

The point of this is that a Wikipedia article does not exist to hold a collection of links which are only indirectly relevant to a given subject; any external link should point to content which in itself directly illustrates the subject of the article. If this were not Wikipedia policy, it would probably be possible to justify adding dozens of links which would be of incidental use to anyone researching the subject. Unfortunately the article would then begin to resemble a link directory. WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_mirror_or_a_repository_of_links.2C_images.2C_or_media_files addresses the point. --Stephen Burnett 15:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the friendly way you put the point. I certainly agree that dozens of links of incidental use to researchers should not be added. As WP:NOT#REPOSITORY says, Wikipedia articles are not '[m]ere collections of external links or Internet directories... excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia'. All I'm suggesting is a single link, which I feel would be of more than incidental use to anyone researching Stravinsky: a link to a page which lists worldwide library holdings, both of titles about Stravinsky, and of titles by Stravinsky.

I do appreciate that you are suggesting a single link. The point I was making is that when 20 or 30 people each suggest a single link to a particular website which they personally feel is "useful", each making equally persuasive arguments to support the case, you will eventually end up with a web directory at the bottom of the article. It's a question of drawing a line, and that's the point of WP:EL and WP:NOT.I would also suggest that if anyone is researching Stravinsky to the extent that they require a list of library holdings, that person will by definition be highly motivated to find the necessary information anyway. Stephen Burnett 21:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that your second quotation from WP:EL is quite pertinent, since this is a biographical page rather than an 'article about a book, a musical score, or some other media'.

I'm sorry I was not more clear. By extension, if a link from an article about a book or musical score should point to a site hosting a copy of the work, then a link from a biographical article should point to a site which hosts biographical material. Stephen Burnett 21:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the need to keep links 'to a minimum'. The question seems to be one of judgement in balancing this with the need to provide what should be linked. This includes, according to WP:EL, links to '[s]ites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to... amount of detail' - provided that they are accessible, proper in the context of the article (here, informative and useful), and functional. Dsp13 20:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

A question of judgement - well, yes, and I have stated my own point of view. However, I'm prepared to be persuaded, if there is a consensus in favour. Time for others to have their say. Stephen Burnett 21:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment

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Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Igor Stravinsky: 2009-01-13== This is an assessment of article Igor Stravinsky by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. ok ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? ok ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) Some images (more needed); one obscure sound clip. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article is impressively referenced; unevenly inline-cited. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Article needs copyediting. ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE) Article prose needs work (WP:MOS) Article text formatting needs work (e.g. quotation methods, punctuation, inconsistent styles) ===Summary=== It is unclear to me how much this article has been improved since it failed FA review nearly two years ago. In my opinion, the principal criticisms of that review still stand: there are not enough inline citations, and the article prose (and possibly structure) can use some work. A comparison of the article now vs. a year ago indicates that, while some citations have been added, there has been no significant work on the prose shortcomings. Constructions like this are torture: After the death of his father in 1902, he had already begun spending more time on his musical studies. ALso, when there are many short paragraphs (one or two sentences), this is an indication they should be either combined or expanded. There is clearly a FA article hiding in here somewhere. It will take a good writer and a subject expert to tease it out. Magic♪piano 14:03, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 09:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 15:00, 1 May 2016 (UTC)