Talk:If You're a Viper

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there's an argument to be made that it's a "blues" song. If any musicologist happens along (or someone with a high quality source adressing the song as music, and not for its social relevance) have at it.Bali ultimate (talk) 22:04, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

When the song was written

The 1976 book on the history of Black Names isn't a decent source for the discussion of this song, if for no other reason than it refers, in the same paragraph, to Rosetta Howard's If You'se a Viper as if it were a seperate song. They're in fact, the same song (that is, variant titles, both written by stuff smith). None of the sources that actually deal with this song in detail have a precise date as to when this song was written. Around 1929? Maybe. But this source disqualified itself by demonstrating a lack of familiarity with the material (and that he hadn't taken a listen to either cut-- the howard song is manifestly identical).Bali ultimate (talk) 17:02, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

The citation in question is Joey Lee Dillard, Black names. The date of 1929 which it provides seems quite consistent with the recording history and the statements of other sources to the effect that Stuff Smith was playing songs of this sort in the twenties. The passage in the book is supported by a footnote. I've not currently got visibility of where that leads but the use of footnotes indicates a respectable level of scholarship and so this seems an adequately reliable source, given that we are concerned with verifiability, not the truth. Following the source by saying "around" seems an adequate way of dealing with this. Removal of the source altogether does not. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:23, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

The source is vague about when the song was written and the author, Dillard, demonstrates he doesn't really know what he's talking about in this instance (he describes a song as separate and written by Howard that is in fact the very same song that Smith wrote.) In fact, he get's it muddled. The original Smith recording was under the name "You'se a Viper." The Howard recording (with her backing band the Harlem Hamfats) was under the title "If You're a Viper." So this has nothing to do with wikiverifiability and wikitruth (leaving aside the appropriateness of these concepts). The Dillard book, which mentions this song in one paragraph, is verifiably wrong about some matters related to the song (it's original title, that the same song has been recorded under multiple names). As to when it was written, no one else on the planet, certainly not any of the authors who have written in much greater detail on this song, seem to have any idea as to when it was written. Dillard's airy "it was written around 1929" verifies nothing. In fact, to put in a bald statement of fact in the article from a source of demonstrated unreliablility, is harmful; best to leave out that matter until a decent source addressing it as found and stick to what is actually verifiable; that the song was written by Smith and that it was first recorded in 1936.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:32, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

• I'm not now seeing any source supporting the writing of the song by Smith. The remaining citation in that part of the article talks as much about Jonah Jones who performed the vocals for this work. As band leaders sometimes took credit for work, whether they wrote it or not, we require better sourcing here. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:50, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

You're an officious little ignoramus, aren't you? It was written by Smith and first recorded by his Onyx Club band in 1936. There are lots of sources that are in the article (though you'll have to read them) that establish this.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:10, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

But as a favor to you [1] this is a really fabulous article by the late Danish Ellington expert Erik Wiedemann (unfortunately, not hosted at a relialbe site -- it's a tearsheet from an out of print book) that attributes to smith in 1936.[2]. So do this site of enthusiastic amateurs [3]. Ditto the book "Jazz: The essential companion." [4], this biography of django reinhardt [5], this book on regional influences on jazz attributes it to him [6], this book ditto and for 1936 [7] this book on pop music and underground culture ditto [8]. We could go on and on. The record collecting nerd websites say the single was recorded in March 1936, that it was released by the label Vocalion, and that the b-side was "After you've gone." I spent a lot of time researching all of this before i started this article, which is what responsible authoriship is about. Bali ultimate (talk) 18:32, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

• None of these sources seem to attribute the composition of the work to Smith as clearly as the disputed source and most of them don't do it at all. The date of the recording in 1936 is a different matter and is not in dispute. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:06, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

What the fuck are you talking about? Go read for a week and come back. Find a decent library. By the way, I'll have to remove the jone's reference. Yes, she did the vocals on the first recording, but she didn't write the vocals. She was simply the vocalist. Funnily enough that source (the one you added) agrees that the song was written by smith and first recorded by him and the Onyx Club band with Jones doing the vocals, which is a very different thing than doing the lyrics; but i appreciate you don't understand these distinctions of meaning.Bali ultimate (talk) 21:10, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

• I'm doing fine, thanks. Note that Jonah Jones was a man not a woman. Colonel Warden (talk) 21:23, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, my bad. Man. However, the lyrics are not attributed to jones, not even in tbe source you provided. An earlier edit you placed here said the book was "written in 1929" when the source provided (which i've explained was innappropriate, for other reasons) didn't even say that. Why are you struggling so to understand what you're reading?Bali ultimate (talk) 21:26, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

• Vocals not lyrics - not quite the same thing. This is notable because it was unusual for Jones to do the singing. Colonel Warden (talk) 21:31, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, let me show you how that bit of trivia is handled.Bali ultimate (talk) 21:33, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

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An unlisted version?

Having read through the article, I didn't see a reference to the single by "East-West" which has their version of the song as the A-Side, and Rosetta Howard & The Harlem Hamfats (1937 recording) on the reverse. I'm glad to say I have a copy of this in my collection. It was released on the Ultima label in 1978 (Catalogue Number ULT1), produced by Robin MacWhirter.

I have found very few references to it anywhere, and never met anyone else with a copy.

Once I get a decent photo of the sleeve I'll add it.

Geoff Burns, Bristol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:6D95:2500:7506:4135:CA3B:58AF (talk) 20:37, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Source of lyric change by Rosetta Howard?

Rosetta Howard's version's modification of the tempo is clear enough to hear, but the line "bust your conk on peppermint candy", cited as an example of her having rewritten the lyrics of the song, is clearly discernable in the original recorded by Stuff Smith himself a year earlier. 77.183.81.12 (talk) 08:24, 26 August 2022 (UTC)