Talk:Ietsism

Unsubstantiated contentious claim:"Ietsism often coincides with a belief in pseudoscience or paranormal phenomena"

There is no evidential backing up of this claim sourced, it appears to just be a supposition of an editor - and indeed statistically can be interpreted in three wholly distinct ways: 1. An unusually high portion of ietists believe in pseudoscience etc, 2. An unusually high proportion of pseudo/paranormal believers are ietists [which is not at all the same relationship as 1] or 3. Both relations hold.

The only way to ascertain if any of these is true is to get actual statistical evidence and do a chi squared test to assess significance.

There may well be such evidence, but since it is not cited, at the moment the claim is merely a statement of personal prejudice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.2.120.160 (talk) 12:18, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I love this article but much prefer the first sentence of the original version in 2007: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ietsism "Ietsism (Dutch “ietsisme” - "Somethingism") is a Dutch language term for a range of beliefs held by people who, on the one hand, inwardly suspect that there is “More between Heaven and Earth” than we know about, but on the other hand do not subscribe to the established belief system, dogma or view of the nature of God offered by any particular religion. The nearest English language equivalent term is Agnostic spiritualism. The name derives from the Dutch equivalent of the question: "Do you believe in the conventional 'Christian' God?", a typical 'ietsist' answer being "No, but there must be something". An opinion poll conducted by the Dutch daily newspaper “Trouw” in October 2004 indicated that some 40% of its readership felt broadly this way."

The word "transcendent" is a very loaded term, and unfortunately it's now in the current first sentence. I'm going to change the first sentence back to the original one if no one objects. I loved it so much I copied it for myself back in 2007. Thanks! 50.234.189.43 (talk) 12:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

I love this article but much prefer the first sentence of the original version in 2007: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ietsism "Ietsism (Dutch “ietsisme” - "Somethingism") is a Dutch language term for a range of beliefs held by people who, on the one hand, inwardly suspect that there is “More between Heaven and Earth” than we know about, but on the other hand do not subscribe to the established belief system, dogma or view of the nature of God offered by any particular religion. The nearest English language equivalent term is Agnostic spiritualism. The name derives from the Dutch equivalent of the question: "Do you believe in the conventional 'Christian' God?", a typical 'ietsist' answer being "No, but there must be something". An opinion poll conducted by the Dutch daily newspaper “Trouw” in October 2004 indicated that some 40% of its readership felt broadly this way."

The word "transcendent" is a very loaded term, and unfortunately it's now in the current first sentence. I'm going to change the first sentence back to the original one if no one objects. I loved it so much I copied it for myself back in 2007. Thanks! 50.234.189.43 (talk) 12:28, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

OLd

This is a very useful article, very helpful, and while I see the notice that it has not been inadequately documented, I hope that it can be-- and especially that it can stay in the Wikepedia. (I did not write it and I have no idea who did). Thank you and again please retain it until someone who knows more about the topic can improve this piece. Many thanks and of course thanks for the Wikepedia.

128.103.197.142 15:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)James Adler

A scholarly book (in Dutch) has just arrived at the Andover-Harvard Theological Library at Harvard Divinity School on this topic, called:

In iets geloven : ietsisme en het christelijk geloof [Editors} Kune Biezeveld...[et al.]. Published : Kampen : Kok, c2006. Description : 169 p. ; 24 cm. Notes : Includes bibliographical references. ISBN : 9043512192

128.103.197.142 20:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)James Adler

To 81.152.168.37. You keep changing 'there must be something' to 'there might/may be something'. Do you have a) an agenda? or b) a learning difficulty?. The phrase is a quote from the original Dutch language page - ‘Nee, maar er moet wel iets zijn!’ ('No, but there must be something!'. 'Moet' being the Dutch word for 'must', not 'may'). It is simply a direct verbatim quote of the typical ietsist reply, and not my viewpoint (I am myself an agnostic). That's why it is between quotation marks. Perhaps you would like to go to the Dutch page and change the word there too. If you disagree with it, then it must be wrong, mustn't it? ChrisRed 07:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The literal translation of the Dutch verb "moet" is "must" but the actual purport is more like "has to be", i.e. it does not refer to some kind of obligation but to (alleged) logical reasoning that only could have the outcome that there has to be something. 79.185.12.123 (talk) 10:40, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

As someone from The Netherlands I can testify that "Nee, maar er moet wel iets zijn" (No, but there must be something) is less common than: "Nee maar ik geloof wel dat er iets is" (No, but I believe there is something). It's a minor difference, but noticable I think. Rekel 02:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This ietsisme is not an official "religion", it would be classified as atheism. later! Mallerd 12:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not atheism if one believes "there must be something", an atheist would believe that "there must be nothing!", right?? 81.83.251.4 (talk) 19:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

True. Ietsism is not a religion, it's a state of mind along the lines of: "I suspect that there is something 'out there'. I don't know what it is, but I don't think that religions know any more about it either" . I would say that it is definitely a form of 'active' rather than 'passive' agnosticism. In other words you 'arrive' at Ietsism as the result of a thought process, as opposed to 'falling' into it as a default position. Maybe it's agnosticism for people with a "God gene" :-) ChrisRed (talk) 10:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Quoting: "Ietsism may roughly be described as a belief in an end-in-itself or similar concept, without further assumption to exactly what object or objects have such a property, like intrinsic aliquidism without further specification. Other aliquidistic lifestances include the acceptance of "there is something - that is, some meaning of life, someting that is an end-in-itself or something more to existence - and it is...", assuming various objects or "truths", ". Does anybody actually know what this means?, and what on earth it has to do with Ietsism? ChrisRed (talk) 07:02, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Does an English equivalent exist?

I generally oppose entries for Dutch terms in the English Wikipedia, but in this case I see no English equivalent of the term. If such a term exists I think this article should be deleted or re-directed. Andries (talk) 16:28, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Quote:"I generally oppose entries for Dutch terms in the English Wikipedia, but in this case I see no English equivalent of the term. If such a term exists I think this article should be deleted or re-directed." That statement stems from a nationalistic mindset with obvious implication of linguistic purism.

Please see below for proposed discussion on eliminating the redirection of searches for 'Agnostic deism' to this page. Just as we have established that agnosticism (ability to know) is not mutually exclusive with theism (decision to believe), I would like to know why we cannot have a similar, harmonious coexistence between agnosticism and deism. Again, see below for a proposed stub for a hypothetical 'Agnostic deism' page. Thank you! --Rcgy (talk) 06:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

It has been given in the explanation paragraph: spiritual but not religious. Using the Dutch-derived term ietsism makes it seem as if the Netherlands have some special religious cultism different from everyone else: they don't. It all helps contribute to the picture we have in Anglophone countries of the Dutch as these weird foreigners with crazy customs.

Nuttyskin (talk) 15:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Should this article should be merged with Agnostic theism?

I don't see a difference between the two states of mind... and think that it would better for both if this article (Ietsism) became a sub-section of Agnostic theism.
Kilnhanger (talk) 16:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Not so sure. I'd classify Ietsism as Agnostic deism. JocK (talk) 20:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Please keep this article under Ietsism. When I first read about Ietsism, I thought, for the first time in my life-- that's me. It is not Agnostic Theism. I would not call myself that. The idea of Ietsism is liberating. Certainly the article could say that there's a "related" article called Agnosticism Theism, and under the latter that there's a "related" article called Ietsism, but while related they are also very different. The very meaning of the Dutch word, in translation as "Somethingism," or more accurately though inelegantly in English as "Likelihood of Something-out-thereism whatever it may be," is simply not the same as Agnostism Theism or Spiritual Agnosticism. '

Thanks so very much about this.

James Adler

Thanks for that, James. Yes, I agree that 'Agnostic Theism' and 'Ietsism' are close, but subtly different. Agnostic Theism infers the mindset: "I believe that there is something; but I don't know what it is, and neither do you". Ietsism is more like: "No matter how illogical or unscientific it seems, my mind still 'feels' 'something' out there. I don't know why; I don't know what it is, and neither do you". Personally I find it hard to understand why, when I was 'implanted' with five 'beliefs' at the same impressionable early age: (Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy, Guardian Angels, God and the Bogey Man) only one of them still troubles me, whilst I can easily dismiss the other four as myths by logic. If there is an objection to using a foreign-language term on Wikipedia, perhaps we should just call it "Somethingism" and be done with it :-) (ChrisRed 86.148.252.237 (talk) 22:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC))

There is a fundamental difference between deism and theism. And as the redirection of 'Agnostic deism' to this article entails that the two are the same, that alone would seem to me to be sufficient grounds to claim that ietsism is not the same as agnostic theism. I, however, believe that what is described in this article is vague enough to cover both positions, i.e. one could argue that the personal nature of this "something" is not specified. Therefore, what we should do is let ietsism be ietsism (an umbrella term for agnostic theism/deism), and remove the redirection from the 'Agnostic deism' page with a stub I propose in the section below titled 'Agnostic Deism vs. Ietsism'. Thank you all for your consideration! --Rcgy (talk) 06:28, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I'm Dutch, but when I'd want to pronounce "iets" in English I'd say something like "jets" (with a soft "j" (pronounced "yay", not "dje"). So wouldn't it be better so rename Ietsism to something like "Etsism" in English? Any suggestions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.176.214.228 (talk) 15:13, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm English, and your English is better than mine...please stop it :-) It's too late now. The word is already 'loose' as a loanword in English. Native English speakers love to 'steal' foreign words into English. We usually keep the original spelling, then mispronounce it as though it was written in English, So we pinched the name of the Belgian town of Ypres and the WW1 soldiers pronounced it 'Wipers' etc. although we sometimes do it deliberately just for fun :-). An English-speaker seeing the word 'Ietsism' for the first time will normally say either '(ee)-yets-ism' or maybe 'eye-yets-ism'.

I think that '(ee)-yets-ism' is close enough to the original Nederlands pronunciation as to be mutually-intelligible. As for practitioners of ietsism (yes, I know that 'practitioners' really is the wrong word), the Dutch words 'ietser' and the plural 'ietsers' have not crossed over into English. If they ever do, it will probably be as 'ietsist' and 'ietsists', which is why I sneaked 'ietsist' into the article a few years ago and nobody noticed. Merry Somethingmas everybody :-) (ChrisRed)86.132.126.184 (talk) 02:02, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Definition

I'm wondering if our top line definition needs a small 'tweak'. The meaning of 'somethingism' in Dutch seems subtly different to how I interpret it on our English page. I refer for example to a recent BBC article 'How can a church have Atheist Clergy'. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14417362 and I've read similar in other Dutch-language material. Here it seems that ietsism (in Holland) is not so much about the existence/non existence of god, but more a feeling that there is some remaining unknown aspect of 'being' or 'sentience' beyond the reach of the scientific method. Perhaps more within the realm of Jung (the 'collective unconscious' etc). I don't like to be arrogant and just change an established page without prior discussion, so what does the congregation think? :-) (ChrisRed) 81.156.38.7 (talk) 13:52, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Agnostic Deism vs. Ietsism

Hi all! I'm unsure as to whether it is a good idea to redirect searches for 'Agnostic deism' to 'Ietsism'. As I understand it, a perfectly acceptable stub for agnostic deism would be as follows: "Agnostic deism is a combination of agnosticism and deism. It is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown and, so far as can be judged, unknowable (agnosticism), but that this view is not mutually exclusive with the belief that reason and observation of the natural world—without the need for organized religion—can determine that the universe is the product of a creator (deism)." The first term deals with a person's ability to know, the second with a person's belief. I don't get that meaning from the definition of ietsism in this article, so I am not convinced that redirection is warranted. I would be interested in hearing the argument for redirection. Best regards! --Rcgy (talk) 06:04, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Agnostic Theism and Deism?

"Some of the English language equivalent terms are agnostic theism and deism."

Pretty sure that's untrue since agnostic theism still is theism and ietsism excludes theism. "those having ietsistic beliefs are counted as believers without religion" according to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.163.135.178 (talk) 04:40, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism?

  "There is something, but I don't know what it is. But there must surely be something. Not nothing. Something. I don't know what that something is, but that there is something, of that I am sure. I think"

That "I think" seems like someone poking fun to me. Is that actually part of the quote? It makes people who believe this seem indecisive and silly. "I believe" there "must" be..."I think"? Even if some people actually feel this way, I don't think it should be used as an example for all of these "believers", as that contradicts the idea of "belief" to begin with. Perhaps you could split it into people who suspect a god, and those who believe a god, but to combine the two in one quote seems ridiculous, even insulting..45Colt 09:23, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. The entire quote was apparently fake. It didn't exist yet before this edit in 2011 on RationalWiki. It has no basis and therefore I have removed it. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 20:52, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Not appropriate?

I am a widely-read native English speaker and had never come across this word until I stumbled into this article. The article says "The word has recently (2012) begun to circulate among English speakers as a loanword" – but no authority for this remark is cited, and I suspect that the word is not recognised by many English speakers (if any). I query its appropriateness in the English Wikipedia. Deipnosophista (talk) 18:38, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Prefer the 1st (?) 2007 version

Thanks for all these versions, from where I first learned about Ietsism. And I like the greater length and detail of the current one, but also very much prefer the much simpler and less "fancy" initial explanation of the 1st (?) 2007 version. The last sentence is probably a little obsolete or dated (going back to 2005) but all the rest of seems to me is much simpler and easier to understand. It goes like this:

Ietsism From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Ietsism (Dutch “ietsisme” - "Somethingism") is a Dutch language term for a range of beliefs held by people who, on the one hand, inwardly suspect that there is “More between Heaven and Earth” than we know about, but on the other hand do not subscribe to the established belief system, dogma or view of the nature of God offered by any particular religion. The nearest English language equivalent term is Agnostic spiritualism. The name derives from the Dutch equivalent of the question: "Do you believe in the conventional 'Christian' God?", a typical 'ietsist' answer being "No, but there must be something". An opinion poll conducted by the Dutch daily newspaper “Trouw” in October 2004 indicated that some 40% of its readership felt broadly this way. The term became known in the Netherlands after the atheist political columnist Ronald Plasterk (who has since become the Minister of Education, Culture and Science) used it in a feature for the television programme “Buitenhof” ("outer court"). But the term possibly existed already. In contrast to traditional agnostics who often hold a sceptical view (i.e. “Do not believe what one cannot know”), “ietsists” take a less dismissive viewpoint along the lines of “There is maybe much more than we can know”. It is a form of religious liberalism or non-denominationalism. The interpretation of it can range between the Judeo/Christian/Islamic conception of a God as a force that exists outside the world, to a position similar to the Buddhist "world view" with collective spiritual power existing within the world. In October 2005, the word “ietsisme” was included in the 14th edition of the Dutch Language Dictionary 'Dikke Van Dale', but has also recently begun to circulate among English-speakers as a loanword.

50.234.189.43 (talk) 14:34, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Ietsism

Description of symbol for Ietsism. Source: Religious Forum

(Would upload image, but don’t know how)

Abstract Circle: represents the infinite & unknown, symbolising belief in something greater without defining it.

Triangle: points upwards, suggesting search for higher meaning/truth, while its openness signifies lack of rigid boundaries.

The Dot: symbolises the individual’s personal belief or core of one’s spirituality within the vast, undefined universe. Represents the idea that while there is a larger, unknown reality, each person has their own unique understanding or connection to it (the dot).

Wave Line: symbolises fluidity and ever-changing nature of personal beliefs, aligning with the idea that Ietsism is not fixed but evolves with individual understanding 37.152.255.39 (talk) 22:21, 23 August 2024 (UTC)