Talk:Idol (Yoasobi song)

Revertations

So what exactly are the reasons for reverting my changes on the article? Please explain. --Goroth (talk) 15:46, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Best song of 2023?

I have added a "citation needed" message on the claim made in the heading that critics have hailed this song as the best of 2023. For one, the year is not over yet. More importantly, none of the reviews cited in the critical reception section seems to make this assertion. Even if one or more sources did make it, an unqualified assessment of the song as "the best of" a given year seems inappropriate for the heading, and a more nuanced "one of the best" or "considered by some critics as the best" is called for.

The "best of 2023" claim was made in a July edit by @PepeBonus, who also started this article and has contributed a considerable amount of material to it. I refrained from deleting the statement to give them an opportunity to defend it and provide sources. No offence is meant and I hope none is taken. LunaticLarry (talk) 14:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Covers

@PepeBonus: The one with Ai on pink obi is the standard cover. Ai on the stage is the digital edition cover only. See on VGMdb: Idol, Idol vinyl, and an alternate rental printing. The same is reflected on Discogs. See here for all other releases—1. worldwide release digital; 2. standard edition CD; 3. limited vinyl edition with aquamarine case; 4. A reprint rental only edition. Lunar-akaunto／talk 17:17, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Sigh, and I can see that you have yet again used the reasoning that the digital edition is more well-known than the standard edition? I already explained this to you on Talk:Mephisto (song) to which you have not replied till date. Thank you for carrying out the legacy from there to here, but also not limiting it to just article space but also spreading it to the file namespace. I will now go ahead and fix it once again, but I'll have to ask an admin to intervene and explain the same to you if you revert it again. Thank you(!) Lunar-akaunto／talk 17:23, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Umm, as a fan of Yoasobi, they do not release CD single regularly compared to other Japanese artists. My source are from Japanese retailers where called the CD version as 完全生産限定盤 translated as "complete production limited edition" or "limited edition" as in Tower Records Japan or HMV Japan or Amazon Japan. The standing Ai cover is the first cover used before the Ai on pink obi was come. You can find Japanese-language sources in the article and use Google Translate to translate them. PepeBonus (talk) 17:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for the late reply; I was out. Anyhow, hello there, fellow YOASOBI fan. I did not see the references before that you have linked now, but they are the same as the ones i checked beforehand. See the references you have used in the release history: official website says 完全生産限定盤 (perfect/complete production limited edition), same for Sony Music, but here they have even provided an English translation, which is 完全生産限定盤—complete limited edition; slightly variable, but normally you'd see the terminology for editions such as standard edition (通常盤初回仕様), limited edition (期間生産限定盤), and first press limited edition (初回生産限定盤). Something similar occurred at Mephisto (song) with the standard edition first specification (通常盤初回仕様)／anime edition (アニメ盤)／first specification/edition limited edition (初回仕様限定盤) all being used interchangeably for the standard cd editon. Here, it matches none of those. Something similar occurs here: complete production limited edition (完全生産限定盤).（i have avoided mentioning other alternative terms such as standard/regular/normal edition, or first production/specification to keep it more legible.

I checked thoroughly, and possibly one could also come up with the explanation that the standard edition was limited, if that makes sense (never encountered something like this before; now the only logical explanation i can think of is that it is indeed the standard edition but that they have omitted mentioning so because they distribute additional items with it, here in this case a novel, and hence the label "limited"). But even then, it should still be placed before the digital cover. I would just say this confusion only exists because of the Japanese text, but i can assure you that 完全生産限定盤 means standard edition here. You cherry-picking the term "limited" and ignoring the rest of the division here is almost like saying condominiums have anything to do with condoms. Do you understand? Lastly, again, the standard cover goes before the digital edition-only cover; this does not change if the digital edition was pre-released because it still remains that it is not a physical edition. I don't need to translate them using Google; I do that myself. Lunar-akaunto／talk 07:55, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Both of you should immediately stop reverting regardless. It isn't that big of a deal. For what it's worth, I support the digital cover being first. That's all I ever saw when I saw the song being discussed/depicted. From my time editing Japanese charts I've seen Yoasobi are primarily a digital-release act. They hardly chart on the Japanese (physical) chart, which means they don't commonly release CD singles. This song was out digitally for two months before it was released physically, and had already reached number one on the Japan Hot 100 before ever being put out as a CD single. So then how would any physical cover, standard or not, be the primary cover? I understand the size of the physical market in Japan still dwarfs digital consumption in general, but this only has 60,000 or so recorded physical sales as compared to being certified diamond by the RIAJ for streaming and double platinum for downloads, which indicate millions of streams and hundreds of thousands of downloads, respectively. Those figures are the most compelling argument for digital being the primary method this song was listened to in Japan. I would say the same for any Yoasobi release or any musical act, Japanese or not, who primarily releases music digitally.

All that being said, honestly, the CD single cover isn't even important enough to be here anyway. Just so both of you are aware before somebody does it to an article either of you watch, some editors will remove extra covers per WP:NFCC even if substantially different, because the additional covers and their importance/a justification for why more than one piece of non-free media is needed are basically never present on the article (e.g. a critical discussion of the artwork). Ss112 10:14, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@Ss112: I'm well aware of the three-revert rule. I also know that it says engaging in reverting others regardless of whether you're correct is wrong, which is precisely why i still have not reverted them again. I have only reverted them a total of three times since this began over a period of four days.

Regarding your other point, please make yourself more familiar with what exactly is the issue here rather than just weighing in. The issue here is him saying that there doesn't even exist a standard edition. He has also previously said the digital cover should be placed first because it is more well-known than the physical cover without any actual sales data (not to mention, I'd still oppose it if he did). You're unnecessarily disrupting the flow of conversation here. If you're that keen on sorting this out, would you rather have me come to your talk page if the same issues reoccur later? I guess not, right? then please ha.

To address the rest of what you said, I understand what you're saying, but i would insist that a digital-only edition does not take precedence over standard physical edition. The standard cover is justified here precisely because of what it is. The digital cover, on the other hand, can be put using extra album cover, which is justified as well because of what you said. The argument that the extra album cover template should even be used here is subjective. YOASOBI do release EPs' standard CD physical editions, and they chart physically as well. For singles, they mostly release them digitally, but they also sometimes release them physically; they have certainly done it for Idol as well. Your whole argument that a digital-only edition should replace a standard edition cover in the infobox based on the charts is absurd to me. Dangling between what more can i even say to PepeBonus, i found something. Please give me a minute or two to demonstrate and refer to it below. Lunar-akaunto／talk 04:13, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

More importantly—honestly, I'm not very happy pointing this out, but you're the one who started this—I thought we were both strongly suggested "to avoid contact to the extent possible.", and yet here you are acting as the only thing i can presume to be an intermediary when we were suggested the exact opposite. Very tactless of you to jump into a discussion you're not actively involved in and absolutely not required by Wikipedia's guidelines. I'm well aware of the consequences of reverting, WP:NFCC, and other general guidelines, and i really do not need you telling me that, especially after the fuss you created last time. Thank you? Lunar-akaunto／talk 04:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

／@PepeBonus: It would most certainly not be a stretch to call 完全生産限定盤 a standard edition. To simplify things even further, just go to any of the previous YOASOBI articles you have created and edited. The Book (Yoasobi EP), The Book 2, The Book 3. Let's go with The Book (Yoasobi EP). Now, what do you see here? This is a perfectly completely normal standard edition, right? Except that, according to your logic here, it's not. Please note that there were no other physical editions released on 1 December that day, so there's not even a chance of confusion here. Go to the sources listed in the article: Tower Records says "完全生産限定盤", Sony Music–"完全生産限定盤", Barks reflects the same–"完全生産限定盤". By your logic, that EP or any other YOASOBI's EP/film album is not a standard edition at all. In fact, according to you, all of them are just "limited editions" and there has never ever existed a standard CD edition at all. Does that make any sense to you? All of their EPs and other works released on CD are like this. Check if you must. Maybe, just maybe—shoot what i just said outside the window—can you think of a single plausible reason why a limited edition would have this many sales, let alone have been certified as gold?!

At this point, this is purely edit warring from you for using the reasoning that it is not a standard edition. Not to mention how consistently you're contradicting yourself. For the last time, please do not fiddle and change them to what you believe. Please use common sense when translating using Google. Lunar-akaunto／talk 04:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Considering you have ten billion percent seen this, I'll be restoring the edit now. Naturally, that applies to file names as well. You asked that this be done after the discussion 1／2; I gladly did you the courtesy. This was a WP:DISCFAIL. Thank you for consuming my time. Lunar-akaunto／talk 18:07, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I definitely have seen this. And Yoasobi's normal EP has only one cover and digital cover are the same as the CD (but different size). I still don't accept the cover of limited-produced CD to be the main cover of the article like the digital cover which (may) more recognized. It's difficult because mostly of digital and regular/standard CD cover by Japanese artists are the same graphic. PepeBonus (talk) 20:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

And Yoasobi's physical releases are not produced much both album and single as they labelled as 完全生産限定盤, except they restock. PepeBonus (talk) 21:15, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by "different size"; if you're referring to comparing the resolutions of CD and digital covers physically, i don't know how that makes sense. Yes, most cover arts for CD and digital editions are the same, but here they are different. More recognised, also yes, but that would not confuse the readers; I'm sure people know that standard refers to CD and that most cover arts for standard and digital editions are the same; the digital edition cover is still in place, not to mention the captions–standard edition cover and digital edition cover. I don't understand what you mean by your last line. What is difficult? Could you please rephrase that?

I'm not sure just how much they are produced in quantity, but i have already answered this above. To quote: …and possibly one could also come up with the explanation that the standard edition was limited, if that makes sense (never encountered something like this before; now the only logical explanation i can think of is that it is indeed the standard edition but that they have omitted mentioning so because they distribute additional items with it, here in this case a novel, and hence the label "limited").

Maybe you could not agree with my reasoning; that's fine. But I'm sure you must have used some logic when you labelled it as "standard" in the release history for EPs and are labelling the same terminology as "limited" for the single? Also, I'm sure if this was indeed not a standard edition at all, it would reflect in the music databases. It did for Mephisto; see: standard, limited（just for the record, the labelling here is not complete since its first press, but i have noticed they usually mention both "limited" and "first press limited" as limited.

I have tried my best to explain this, but if there's still something i might have missed, feel free to ask, and I'll try my best to reply again. If not, then can we conclude the discussion? Lunar-akaunto／talk 02:31, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

The "different size" I meant is ratio or shape of the cover (square and rectangle). Sorry for my bad word choice. In this case and my logic for Yoasobi, I feel the digital cover should top on the infobox and be the "standard" as much of their singles release on digital platform only, more than the cover of CD which not much produced, like exclusive goods, and not appear on the streaming/digital platform. PepeBonus (talk) 09:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

You see, my rationale for this argument was that there does exist a standard edition. I have demonstrated this using my reasoning, but more than that, the reliable music databases that i have linked, and what you have previously used in EPs. I might be wrong, but i haven't seen anything that suggests otherwise, so if there potentially does exist a standard cd edition at all, my conscious tells me it should be placed before a digital cover.

Also, i find myself a little confused here. Can you spell out exactly why you oppose the cd edition cover being placed first? Is it because you believe it is not a standard cd edition, or is it because you believe a digital edition should be placed before a cd cover because it is largely more known than the digital cover? Lunar-akaunto／talk 11:05, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Because the Ai face cover appear "only on CD". CD is not the main or common platform to listen songs nowadays, including Yoasobi, as it shows on sales and certification sections (even though Japan has the high CD sale percentage compared to other countries). If the Ai face cover appear on digital platform too, I will accept your choice. It's not the same case as Yoasobi's EPs which uses the same cover both CD and digital. And also it's not like pre-release one-track single before many-track single like some artists. PepeBonus (talk) 13:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Uh-huh. My point was mainly just as i stated above. If placing the cd cover before the digital disheartens you, i believe i shouldn't do that. Since the readers won't be confused by either placement, and since you prefer it as such, a compromise is possible here. I have now swapped the covers while retaining the earlier captions. Is it okay with you now? Lunar-akaunto／talk 15:24, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

It's okay, and I will change captions a little bit, like "Digital cover" and "CD single cover" and also file name "Yoasobi - Idol (digital)" and "Yoasobi - Idol (CD)". PepeBonus (talk) 15:38, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Why change the captions? Also, is there any reason why you oppose the stylisation "YOASOBI" in the file names? I didn't request file names to be changed specifically for that, though; it was just to correct and remove the unnecessary disambiguation, and i thought to add the stylisation back while i was at it. So, why go the extra step to remove it when it's perfectly fine to be there? Lunar-akaunto／talk 15:49, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I used captions in the same way as other articles. File names too, I don't know why we need all caps stylization. Latter uploaded files also don't use stylization. For example, girl group Le Sserafim which mentioned in the article "stylized in all caps" and example cover artwork file name File:Le Sserafim - Easy.png. PepeBonus (talk) 16:07, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

This is funny; your captions almost take us back to where we started; it's almost like tell me you don't agree with me without telling me you don't agree with me. I was considering appending "limited" after standard after introspecting. I'm not going to reiterate any further. About the file names—I was not saying to change in regards to other file names; I'm saying because, well, we cannot use the stylization in the article title, lead, or running text (MOS:CAPS), but i am sure that does not apply to file names, but if you still prefer them in the normal case, it's your choice.

Listen, i have spent too long here for my own good. I don't even know why i was here anymore. Should have probably used my jutsu elsewhere to expand piled-up soundtrack articles or alike. I'll take my leave now. I have said what was necessary. Lunar-akaunto／talk 16:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Before i leave, I'm not sure why, but you rarely talk, even on your own talk page. I looked at your user page the other day and found Thai is your native language, so i presume it's because of that. Worry not, because once i was not very good with English either. You might possibly be using a translator to read this, so I'm not sure just how much is lost in the translation. But i would only say don't let it stop you from communicating; if you prefer, you may type in Thai and others can translate it. It's better than not speaking at all. That is all. Khop khun. Lunar-akaunto／talk 16:43, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I can read English but sometimes I uses translator for easy understanding. I rarely reply because I don't know what I should reply, not that good in communication and I also sometimes scared them, so I didn't read them. But it's gonna be better! Khop khun too! PepeBonus (talk) 17:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Like Lunar-akaunto／talk 06:30, 17 July 2024 (UTC)