Talk:Hungarian anti-LGBT law

The title of the article is not neutral at all.

When referring to a law or an organization, the title should be what it's called, now what some critics describe it as. The criticism should be contained in the article itself, not in the title. The law is not an anti-LGBT law per se. It's an anti-pedophilia law. However, because it also bans, for example, activists from advertising sex transitioning among juveniles, it has attracted criticism of having anti-LGBT parts hidden inside it. But the majority of the law is about pedophilia, so that should be used in the title or when referring to it. Also, the article itself only presents one single sentence from the makers of the law, and lots and lots and lots of statements from the critics of it, without mentioning any single paragraph in particular. This makes the article even more biased, but having the bias in the title itself is a bigger cause of concern, lowering the quality and trustfulness of Wikipedia. --2A02:2F07:D504:3B00:DC29:2B76:1E13:7730 (talk) 16:16, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

It would surely be biased to simply cite the title - as it would suggest that the Hungarian governement is right about classifying LGBT education on the same level as paedophilia. Still - I have a compromise left for your objection: We could name it "Hungarian anti-LGBT education law" - or may create an additional article. One for the law itself (with its original title) and one for these sections that restrict LGBT education. Besides that: Even media that is stating that homosexuality is NOT against the norm is classified as "advertising".

Apart from that, it definitely would be a pleasure to have the original Hungarian text to be translated into English. At least, the passages linked to the topic. HrezMc (talk) 19:17, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

No, the law is not about "classifying LGBT education on the same level as paedophilia". The majority of the law is about pedophilia itself, not even mentioning LGBT. What raised controversy, are some smaller parts in it. And it does not classify "LGBT education" as pedophilia. It does not prohibit teaching that LGBT exists and it does not prohibit teaching tolerance towards them. Where it connects LGBT promotion (not education, but promotion!) with pedophilia, is one part, being titled as (translated by myself) : "the state protects the right of children to self-identify with their birth gender". This means, for example (not stated in the law per se, but was the main argument when writing these additions), that it would bar ideologically motivated activists from going to kindergarten and schools, looking for children who play with toys not stereotypical to their gender, and then convincing them that they are not their birth gender, and manipulating them into self-identifying as trans. The rationale was that pedophilia is illegal because a minor is not held capable in the eyes of the law to give consent to sexual acts, and similarly, a minor should not be held capable in the eyes of the law to give consent to gender reassignment. Therefore the law mentions that the advertising/promotion of LGBT for minors should not be allowed (not teaching about it is prohibited, but promoting it). The problem is that although this part of the law about "LGBT promotion" can be justly criticized because it might be open to different interpretations, the sensationalist media ignored most of the law, focused only this one small part of it, spread exaggeration and misinformation (e.g. that the law would criminalize homosexuality, or that it would ban Harry Potter because the author said in a later interview that Dumbledore was gay), therefore this article mostly attracts LGBT activists, so the article itself became an LGBT activism opinion article, instead of factually presenting the law, and putting any criticism of it in the criticism section as it should be in any Wikipedia article.

Basically, as the law is mainly about pedophilia unrelated to any LGBT topics, but a small part of it can be criticized of hurting LGBT rights according to some interpretations, it would definitely NOT be neutral to have put that small criticized part of the law into the title, or building up the whole article around it, or to present only the opinions of its critics and none of its defenders.

I myself don't feel qualified to translate the parts about what I roughly translated as "promotion" to English in my comments above, because different synonyms have different weights to the word, and a word-to-word translation is likely to give a different meaning in English than in Hungarian, due to cultural and linguistic differences. --2A02:2F07:D504:3B00:39AA:EA94:6F7F:9954 (talk) 11:39, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

As the creator of the article, I am against any change of title that would change its meaning, including "Hungarian anti-LGBT education law". The Hungarian media itself, including the governmental media, refers to this legislation as "Hungarian anti-gay paedophile law" as it is duly quoted in the article. It seems to me that you want to be more catholic than the Pope, and if your changes were to be applied, the article would be more biased.

I agree that the article needs more information; background, legal details, content of the legislation, controversies, criticisms, more reactions, ... but I don't have time to do it and this is a Wikipedia (anyone can contribute).--KajenCAT (talk) 12:07, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

I am anything but catholic - in actual fact I really despise the law. My offer only was to be a little bit more specific. But I'll accept your decision. Especially because on the EU summit yesterday all - except Polish and Hungarian - diplomats (who have high-profile translators) unanimously agreed upon the fact that it is discriminatory. And the question remains: For what is it known? What urged the controversy itself? Short answer: The anti-LGBT amendments to it. As the Russian anti-homosexual "propaganda" law, it also uses inciting language as "promotion". As if LGBT activists were eager to infiltrate children so that they become one of them. And all forms of media having the notion that homosexuals are not abnormal are not allowed for any minor to be seen. This will lead to many more LGBT sites to be restricted or prohibited as the youth could easily access them otherwise...HrezMc (talk) 12:31, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

I understand your position although my answer was addressed to the anonymous user, not you. Moreover, your proposal had two problems; it does not only cover education (also TV) and also according to the Google search engine no newspaper has used this term. Finally, it is not for us to "judge" whether the law is really discriminatory or not, but what reliable sources say.--KajenCAT (talk) 12:48, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Is there a better WP:COMMONAME? A quick Google News does suggest that "Hungarian anti-LGBT law" is, at the very least, one of the common names for this used in English. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:55, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

hella biased title Jaygo113 (talk) 03:59, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

What is this law about?

Outside the name this article says almost nothing about the law's contents; the lead has an unreferenced sentence that the law prohibits "promotion of LGBT rights towards minors", that's confusing. This needs to be addressed ASAP, both by clarifying this in the lead, and by adding a section dedicated to explaining what the law actually states, prohibits, etc. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:59, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, it is mainly an anti-pedophilia law and a law that only parents may decide the sexual education of their own children; but it has de facto banned from the media anything that can be even remotely interpreted as pro-LGBT propaganda, i.e. even substanitally discussing that homosexual couples do exist like in Brokeback Mountain. Such films may only be shown at Hungarian TV stations only at hours when children are expected to be asleep. Selling copies of the Brokeback Mountain to underage persons is equated with pedophilia, and such sellers will be registered as sex offenders. RS: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57566696 The Hungarian law equates pedophilia with discussing LGBT subjects with minors. This is the POV of the Dutch Prime-minister, not just my personal opinion: Orban seeks to conflate gays with pedophiles. Rutte insisted that if Orban wants to have it this way, Hungary should leave the EU. Since while Hungary remains a member of the EU such law is itself illegal under the treaties signed and ratified by Hungary. If Hungary denounces these treaties, it cancels its own membership of the Union. tgeorgescu (talk) 10:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Melegellenes magyar pedofiltörvény

There is a sentence, which claims that the law is called melegellenes magyar pedofiltörvény in Hungarian and it gives three references. None of them prove the statement however... One is a football site (!), the other (168 óra) is not mainstream media, the third is not in Hungarian. Even the Google does not give results: I can't insert the link, but look it up.