Talk:Hummus/Archive 5

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Why is olive oil not listed as one of the "basic" ingredients?...

I was surprised to see that olive oil wasn't listed in the intro and in the text body as one of the "basic ingredients" of hummus...

While some of the cheaper industrial hummus preparations might use canola or other cheaper oils as a substitute, I'm pretty sure one would be hard pressed to find a traditional hummus recipe that didn't include olive oil.

It's certainly at least as common as lemon juice, and indeed some of the cheaper industrial hummuses are made with cheaper substitutes like citric acid (produced industrially from corn). So if that's the basis of excluding olive oil then lemon juice should be left out too.

I also worked years ago at a cafe where their hummus recipe didn't include tahini, and I'm sure there are others made without garlic too. But if the standard is what's traditionally included in all hummus recipes (not what a cheap cafe or factory might exclude or substitute to cut costs), then chickpeas, tahini, olive oil, lemon juice, and garlic are the five basic ingredients. These (including) olive oil are also listed in most of the foreign language Wikipedia articles. -2003:CA:871E:3681:55E2:1B0D:61D2:165F (talk) 13:21, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

The reason is because that's what the expert sources say, and your statement that it's "traditionally included in all hummus recipes" is easily disproven. Not only the cited Oxford Companion to Food: "a ubuquitous paste of chickpea and tahini (sesame paste) with garlic and lemon", but others like Gil Marks: "Hummus primarily consists of four basic ingredients - cooked chickpeas, tahini (sesame seed paste), lemon juice, and garlic." Along with parsely or various other toppings, olive oil is generally drizzled over it as a garnish for serving, but is not standardly mixed in, so not considered a main ingredient. What other-language Wikipedia articles say isn't relevant; all we do here is summarize what reliable, published sources say. However, for example the Arabic Wikipedia says (translated): "Its main ingredients - chickpeas, sesame, lemon, and garlic - have been combined and eaten in the Levant for centuries", and it describes its preparation as not having oil mixed in, but only served on top as a garnish. A web search will turn up some recipes with oil mixed in, but again it's not standard - see e.g. the Washington Post [1], or this traditional recipe from Arto Der Haroutunian's book "Middle Eastern Cookery": [2], or many others. If you can provide high-quality published sources (i.e., not recipe blogs) stating that it's common to mix olive oil in as a main ingredient, it's possible that it could be mentioned somewhere in the article as a variation. --IamNotU (talk) 15:34, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

@IamNotU - I don't know that I'd consider a recipe posted on WaPo to be particularly authoritative. And as for the Arabic Wikipedia, what you posted there looks like a word-for-word translation of what's in the English article here. I can do some more searching when I get more time, but here are several encyclopedia and dictionary entries:

Britannica:

"Hummus (or hummous)—chickpeas mashed to a paste with lemon juice, olive oil, and tahini (sesame paste)—is widely eaten in the Middle East as a sauce and dip for bread." [3]

Lexico:

"A thick paste or spread made from ground chickpeas and sesame seeds, olive oil, lemon, and garlic, made originally in the Middle East." [4]

Dictionary.com:

"a paste or dip made of chickpeas mashed with oil, garlic, lemon juice, and tahini and usually eaten with pita." [5]

Cambridge Dictionary:

"a soft, smooth food made from crushed chickpeas, oil, and lemon juice" [6]

The Free Dictionary:

"A smooth thick mixture of mashed chickpeas, tahini, oil, lemon juice, and garlic, used especially as a dip for pita." [7]

These all include either "olive oil" or "oil" (which would traditionally be olive oil in the Middle East). ::-2003:CA:871E:367B:C9B6:52CB:66D8:FAB8 (talk) 01:47, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

From PubMed:

"Traditional hummus is a nutrient-dense dip or spread made from cooked, mashed chickpeas, blended with tahini, olive oil, lemon juice, and spices." [8]

Another source, from the World Policy Journal, found from Google Scholar:

"In Israel, hummus—cooked chickpeas puréed with olive oil, lemon juice, sesame, salt, and garlic—is widely portrayed as a national dish, and the hummus industry is a serious business." [9]

I'm sure that more can be found, but I think these so far, all from reputable sources, should be sufficient to establish that olive oil is a basic ingredient of hummus. -2003:CA:871E:367B:C9B6:52CB:66D8:FAB8 (talk) 02:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't claim that the Washington Post reference is authoritative for the ingredients of hummus, but by the same measure, dictionaries are no better. Rather, it's just another example showing that not all (or even most) published recipes include olive oil as a mixed-in ingredient. On the other hand, I do consider the Oxford Companion to Food to be generally authoritative. And why do you ignore Arto Der Haroutunian's book? There may be some ambiguity - it is quite commonly served with a topping of olive oil, so arguably that could be described as an "ingredient" by some of the sources you've listed. But on Wikipedia, we usually list as main ingredients only those things that are defining characteristics. For example, if you wish to use the World Policy Journal as proof that all hummus in Israel contains olive oil, you'll need to deal not only with Gil Marks, who I also consider authoritative and who expressly says there are only four basic ingredients, but with Michael Solomonov, whose hummus was selected as "recipe of the year" 2015 by Bon Appetit ([10]), and which contains not a single drop of olive oil.

So, while I'm not strictly opposed to a mention somewhere in the article that some recipes call for oil to be mixed in with the other standard ingredients, I don't agree with stating that it is a fundamental ingredient that is always included, given the very strong sources that say otherwise. (PS, I formatted your reply for the talk page, please see WP:INDENT, thanks.) --IamNotU (talk) 04:33, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I wasn't familiar with Arto Der Haroutunian. Looked at his entry now, and it says that he's an Armenian who grew up in Syria. I'd be willing to concede that my initial comment here was perhaps a bit too sweeping and hyperbolic, and that one can find some more traditional recipes that don't include olive oil in the initial mix (just as one could find some which exclude garlic, etc.), but I would still maintain that it's usually included as a main ingredient.

Over the years, I've spent time with dozens of people from both Israel and Palestine, Syria, Jordan, and other Arab countries who've discussed with me how they make hummus, and they all mixed olive oil in with the chickpeas, and then typically also added additional olive oil on top...Of course this is anecdotal, so we can't cite it as a source or anything, but I'm just explaining where I'm coming from, and why I found the lack of olive oil as a basic ingredient so baffling!

As far as the actual sources go, here's a recipe that I found from Claudia Roden, an Egyptian-British cultural anthropologist and cookbook writer:

"Ingredients

250g chickpeas, soaked in cold water overnight 2 lemons, juice of 3 tablespoons tahini 3 garlic cloves, crushed salt 4 tablespoons olive oil

Garnish

1 tablespoon olive oil 1 teaspoon paprika 1 teaspoon ground cumin 2 sprigs parsley, finely chopped

Directions

Drain the chickpeas and simmer in fresh water for about an hour or until tender. Reserve the cooking water.

Process the chickpeas in a blender (or food processor) with the lemon juice, tahina, garlic, olive oil, salt and enough of the cooking liquid to obtain a soft creamy consistency.

Serve on a flat plate, garnished with a dribble of olive oil, a dusting of paprika and ground cumin (this is usually done in the shape of a cross) and a little parsley.

Serve with warm pita bread for dipping." [11]

I would actually argue though that dictionaries, and certainly encyclopedias like Britannica, are better sources than individual recipes, even recipes from famous chefs or writers, because they're more representative of broader customs, and what's generally understood to be included as ingredients.

Also, even the recipes that don't call for the oil to be blended directly with the chickpeas during preparation, they almost all still call for it to be poured on top afterwards, and generally over relatively small portions, such that it would get mixed pretty thoroughly while it's eaten. So it's arguably still an ingredient in such cases.

Perhaps, as a compromise, the intro might read something along the lines of: "Hummus is a dip, spread, or savory dish made from cooked, mashed chickpeas blended with tahini, lemon juice, and garlic. Olive oil is usually included as well, as part of the initial blend and/or as garnish on top." -2003:CA:871E:367B:C9B6:52CB:66D8:FAB8 (talk) 15:20, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

The statement is still too sweeping. The sources you've provided show only that olive oil is sometimes an ingredient, but not always or even usually, and the latter is directly contradicted by a number of very high-quality sources. We can't use a dictionary entry to simply dismiss the Oxford Companion or Marks' encyclopedia entries (neither of which are "individual recipes"). Nor should we ignore other reliable sources such as this one that says the hummus typical of Southern Lebanon, Israel, and Palestine does not contain olive oil as an ingredient: [12]. Even looking at dictionaries, only one of the citations you gave specifies olive oil, the others just say "oil". You argue this "would traditionally be olive oil", but this article is not about "traditional" hummus, rather hummus in general. Most hummus is industrially produced and rarely contains olive oil; it either has no oil [13], [14], or as you said, a cheaper oil like sunflower or rapeseed: [15], [16], [17]. And while it's traditionally served with olive oil drizzled on top, at least in the West it's more likely to just be eaten out of the tub from the supermarket. If I had to guess, I'd say that the majority of hummus consumed globally doesn't involve any olive oil at all. Furthermore, the most authoritative English dictionary, the OED, doesn't include olive oil in its definition: "In Middle Eastern countries (and also, more recently, elsewhere) an hors d'œuvre made from ground chick-peas and sesame oil flavoured with lemon and garlic." I understand that many people like to blend olive oil into their hummus, and this could be mentioned, but the sources don't support that it's without question the accepted standard or even traditional method of preparation. --IamNotU (talk) 00:10, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Determining what the "traditional" components of hummus are is difficult, because hummus is not codified. See my essay Wikipedia:WikiProject Food and drink/Original, authentic, and traditional. On the other hand, saying that "most hummus is industrially produced" is problematic, too. I would hate to have our foods defined by industrial production. After all, most mayonnaise is industrially produced, too, and includes ingredients like sugar and spices, but those are (a) not defining ingredients (to go back to an earlier comment of yours), even if 95% of all mayonnaise in the world contains them; and (b) not reflective of the best gastronomic standards. As for most of it being straight out of the tub in the West, again, the article should reflect both this modern habit but also the best practices of home cooks, chefs, and gastronomes in its region of origin.

As for the OED in particular, I refer to the OED a lot, but it is not infallible. Its definition (which you quote) is clearly wrong, as it confuses tahini (ground sesame) with sesame oil. The hummus article in the OED was first published in 1976 (when hummus was very exotic in the UK) and "has not yet been fully updated" (or maybe not at all!). The OED also gives the etymology as "< Turkish humus mashed chick peas", which is again wrong. Hummus is not common in Turkey, that etymology doesn't explain the doubled 'm' in English, and the Turkish word refers to this dish, not to mashed chickpeas in general (though my old Turkish-English dictionary defines it that way, too, maybe as a shorthand).

So how do we determine whether olive oil should be mentioned in the lead? I think we need to lean on high-quality cookbooks, such as Claudia Roden's. She gives olive oil as a 'garnish', as does Sonia Uvezian's Recipes and Remembrances. Roden (who has done considerable historical research, unlike most cookbook authors), also says:

This is one of the dishes which, for centuries, have been traditionally decorated in the same manner. Pour the cream into a serving dish and dribble a little red paprika mixed with olive oil over the surface. Sprinkle with chopped parsley and arrange a decorative pattern of whole chickpeas on top. (p. 46, 1985 edition)

It seems clear, then, that olive oil is a standard garnish in the Middle East, even if it isn't elsewhere. --Macrakis (talk) 22:03, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

You're correct that olive oil is a standard garnish in the Middle East, and that should be in the article, along with other serving details like it being swirled in a dish, with a depression in the center, etc. I'm not sure I'd say that a few whole chick peas as a garnish is standard in the Middle East though; it's very common, but there are also many other toppings used instead, see the citation of Marks. Although Marks also gives recipes like Roden, I find his encylopedia entries more... encyclopedic. Regarding ingredients, I only brought up the OED in contrast to the other dictionary sources that were presented as proof that olive oil is always blended into the mashed chickpeas. I agree it's better to consult food experts.

However, regarding language, the OED is more difficult to dismiss. I think it's a mistake to interpret the phrase "mashed chickpeas" as referring to anything other than "mashed chickpeas with tahini", i.e., what we call hummus. But you're right that we shouldn't give the impression that Turkish: humus means anything other than that (though apparently in Ottoman Turkish there was rare usage of humus rather than nohut for 'chickpeas', these days it only refers to hummus), so I adjusted that sentence. I think it's too simplistic to state a single point of entry for the word into English. It's entirely plausible that part of the dish's adoption in English-speaking countries was for example via the hundreds of Cypriot restaurants (it's common in Cyprus) that opened in the UK during and after WWII, when many thousands of Turkish Cypriots immigrated. Earlier there were different spellings that have become more standardized on hummus; the American Heritage Dictionary also gives humus as an alternate spelling. In any case, without speculating as to the reasons, since the OED gives only Turkish as an antecedent, and Random House gives both, I think it's sensible to include. --IamNotU (talk) 15:53, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Unreliable sources removed

The following citations added by Reinhearted in this edit: [18] have been removed, please do not continue to re-add them:

• <ref>{{Cite web|title={{!}} History of Hummus|url=https://ayblagrill.com/history-of-hummus/|access-date=2021-01-17|language=en-US}}</ref>
  • The source clearly plagiarizes text from this article (I know because I wrote some of it). See WP:CIRCULAR.
• <ref>{{Cite web|url=https://maninio.com/the-original-arabic-hummus/|access-date=2021-01-17|website=maninio.com}}</ref>
  • The source is a self-published blog. Penelopi from Greece looks like a nice person, but she's not a recognized expert, so her blog is not a reliable source.
• <ref>{{Cite web|title=Hummus: Greek or Middle Eastern?|url=https://www.thespruceeats.com/is-hummus-greek-or-middle-eastern-2355742|access-date=2021-01-17|website=The Spruce Eats|language=en}}</ref>
  • The Spruce is a Dotdash (formerly About.com) website, see WP:RSP#Dotdash. It is of low quality, and should not be cited if there's a better alternative, which there is, already in the article.

Regarding the text added repeatedly: [19], [20], [21], [22], as noted multiple times, it's redundant. It leaves a broken, duplicated, half-sentence. It's changing the existing sentence:

1. The word hummus comes from Arabic: حُمُّص‎‎, romanized: ḥummuṣ, meaning 'chickpeas'.

to:

2. The word hummus comes from the Arabic word meaning chickpeas. Arabic: حُمُّص‎‎, romanized: ḥummuṣ, 'chickpeas'.

Please stop. --IamNotU (talk) 19:30, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Both sentences state the same exact thing, you make it seem as if the article didn’t say the the same exact thing before you edited it. The second sentence doesn’t make much sense and is grammatically incorrect you put a language translation in the same sentence? Even without sources added, the statement still stands in the article and all I did was ass better wording. I refuse to go back and fourth with you, next time you reverse one of my edits I will be firmly contacting an administrator. Reinhearted (talk) 19:33, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Reinhearted, I can't understand what you're saying: The second sentence doesn’t make much sense. Do you mean line 1 or line 2 above? Or what? Line 2 has a grammar error, Arabic: حُمُّص‎‎, romanized: ḥummuṣ, 'chickpeas'. is not a sentence, it's a sentence fragment. It's also redundant, it says "chickpeas" twice. Macrakis and I both noted that in our edit summaries. Line 1 has a transliteration in the sentence, are you saying that's a problem? Why? Also, Wikipedia requires the use of {{lang}} / {{transl}} / etc. language templates for non-English words, see MOS:LANG, which you just removed [23]. I see Macrakis has restored it. If you want to change it, you'll need to explain the reasons, not edit-war. --IamNotU (talk) 20:55, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Reinhearted, there seem to be some important Wikipedia policies and practices which you don't understand. If you continue editing without understanding them, you risk being blocked. These are important general policies:

• WP:RS -- As IamNotU says above, The Spruce, maninio.com, ayblagrill.com, etc. are not reliable sources.
• Wikipedia:Consensus -- Administrators don't intervene in most editing disputes. The goal should be to reach consensus among editors working on an article through reasoned discussion. It's fine to change something once, but if others disagree and revert it, you should discuss, not re-insert (see WP:BRD and Wikipedia:Edit warring).

...and some more minor policies that are worth knowing:

• Wikipedia:Offline sources -- offline sources are just as valid as online sources.
• We have a standard format for glossing foreign words, using single quotes (MOS:'): "Cossack comes from Turkic qazaq 'freebooter'".

You have taken a rather aggressive stance both on this article and on other articles (Shakshouka, Falafel). This is not productive.

I recommend that you slow down and review Wikipedia policies. --Macrakis (talk) 21:03, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

the previous statement added a translation before explicitly stating the origins of the word. The sentence started with “the word comes from” followed by a translation without specifically stating the origins in English first. It’s not “redundant” to add the definition of a word followed by a translation. It is misleading and confusing to start a sentence with “the word comes from” then adding a translation without a clear explanation of the origins of the word. This is how it was before user IamNotU edited it and there is certainly no reason for us to be going back and fourth with this, as it is a minor issue. Reinhearted (talk) 22:11, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

As IamNotU has explained, your version is harder to understand and redundant, and adds a strange sentence fragment.

Please stop editing against consensus.

You also changed "national identity" to "cultural identity", which is not what the source article says (as I have already pointed out). --Macrakis (talk) 22:43, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

I also see that you have already been blocked once under:

Editing restrictions for new editors: All IP editors, accounts with fewer than 500 edits, and accounts with less than 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab–Israeli conflict.

You are now continuing to violate this policy. --Macrakis (talk) 22:51, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Remove Arbitration banner from talk page

The Arbitration banner says Extended confirmed protected, but since the article is only semiprot, I believe that the banner no longer applies and therefore should be removed. Wilh3lm^{Go here to trout me if I do a stupid} 16:18, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Evaluation

Tone and Balance This article overall contains viewpoints that reflect the role of hummus in various Middle Eastern cultures. However, in the "Culture" section, the discussion is primarily about Lebanon and Israel. Hummus serves as an aspect of culture not only in Lebanon and Israel but also in Jordan, Palestine, Syria, and Egypt. While these countries are discussed in the "Regional Preparations" section, their cultures are not mentioned or explored in-depth, unlike Lebanese and Israeli culture connections to hummus. --JalebiBaby23 (talk) 21:32, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Evaluation

Lead Section

The Lead Section was very direct and to the point. The information included was relevant to the topic and informative. The Lead section lacked an informative intro into the specific sections of the article. 

Content The content of the article is not fully updated. Some content is updated as there are multiple references were made to articles written about hummus 2020 and 2021; however, some statistics on the packaging of products are from the early 2000s and should be updated to more recent statistics

The article gives a thorough overview of hummus and gives specific details and facts in each section. The distribution section is lacking as it focuses on the distribution of hummus in the United States.

Tone and Balance The tone of the article is very neutral. Hummus in a non-controversial topic and contributors did not to persuade readers towards a specific opinion.

Sources and References The article uses a lot of references. From my observations, the links for the references and sources work and lead to the correct sites. Facts were referenced from a variety of neutral sources that come from an array of authors and publications. There are sources and references from recent years (2019, 2020, 2021).

Organization and Writing Quality The article was organized well and is written with high quality. There is a clear and distinct order in each section. There is clear detailing and minimal overlap of content in the writing.

Images and Media The images are not copyrighted and accurately represent the article. The captions of the photos are descriptive and brief.

Talk Page Discussion The talk page of this article is relatively active. There has not been much talked about since January of 2021. Overall Impressions Overall, the article is communicative and explains hummus form a neutral perspective. The article has strength is the depth of its regional preparations sections, The article does lack detail in its Distribution section and could be improved through more updated statistics from multiple countries and regions. Question What are the distribution statistics of hummus in other countries besides the United States? Coffeeaddict101 (talk) 22:30, 17 September 2021 (UTC)coffeeaddict101

Evaluation

Lead Section The article's lead description is concise. It explains what hummus is and where in the world it is eaten. Content The article is mainly up to date. It contains a definition of hummus from the Oxford Dictionary from 20 January 2021. The references also contain a source from 2019 called "Who invented hummus?" which is retrieved from BBC. Tone and Balance The article is very neutral. Hummus is also not a controversial topic, therefore the language is clear and balanced. In the culture section, there is information about the rivalries over hummus in different countries. However, the language is not biased and does not persuade the reader towards a specific viewpoint. Sources and References There are a decent amount of sources for this article. Many of the articles are up to date, from recent years such as 2019, 2020, and 2021. There are also references from a diverse array of sources and authors. Organization and Writing Quality This article is well written. There is very concise language, making it easy to read and understand. Images and Media The article includes several images that are well captioned. By providing these visual aids, they add to the reader's understanding of the article. Talk Page Discussion The discussions in the talk page are fairly recent, dating to 2020 and 2021. There are discussions about the cultural discrepancies regarding hummus, as well as different recipes and ingredients used in making hummus. There are not that many questions in the talk page, but the discussions under each are quite active and detailed. Overall Impressions The article is informative. It does a good job of explaining the cultural significance of hummus, as well as its various preparations and history. Question Why does the preparation of hummus differ between countries in the middle east? Ariyvktio (talk) 17:09, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sarah Valvano.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 September 2021 and 7 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): JalebiBaby23, Coffeeaddict101, Salamshalom5.

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