Talk:Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey

Kurdish genocide Claims

The section, if it is going to stay, has to be renamed to something like "claims of kurdish cultural genocide" as we dont talk about a genocide in its real meaning, there are millions of kurds living in turkey..And these paragraphs about the pontic greek genocide are unrelated and unneccessary as there are many of such articles dealing with the events..Otherwise one can easily add information to Mr. Levene's assessment about "genocidal attempts of nation states" considering what Greek state had done in the same period of time in western anatolia..--laertes d 18:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:Undue Weight states: "Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all...We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view...To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute...Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

As I've said, the current section is misrepresenting the dispute concerning human rights of Kurds in Turkey. Accusations of genocide are not part of the mainstream. Yannis and Aldux have also indicated above that these claims should not have their own section. --A.Garnet 08:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

You're clutching at straws here. The section is in proportion to the academic sources provided. I'm afraid it is Turkish denialism that is the tiny-minority view. I request that you provide sources supporting your view. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Really, I'm clutching at straws? The section is larger than contemporary issues, ("depth of detail", "quantity of text") and copies two large statements from two vague sources ("juxtaposition of statements"). Shouting "Turkish denialism", besides being a personal attack, is not an acceptable answer to my concerns here. --A.Garnet 10:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

And your failure to provide sources to contradict those cited is entirely unsatisfactory. Turkish denialism isn't a personal attack, it's a statement of fact. I've made my three reverts for today. Cheers for now. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing to discuss any more regarding the deletion of this. See past discussions, AfD's, RfD's etc.

• Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Kurdish_genocide
• Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2006_December_22

The section is sourced by the accredited historian Mark Levene,(1)(2) plus it is not a separate article, plus it has the awkward section title "claims". I would strongly recommend for it to be {{main}}ed out, but I don't want to inflame the situation further. NikoSilver 15:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, pardon my accidental misuse of the 'revert vandalism' button. The screen jumped up one line when loading a picture or something as I was trying to click on 'undo' so as to write a decent edit summary, and I accidentally pressed it. I would have written: 'Already discussed, well sourced, see talk for history'. NikoSilver 15:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This response is too low, and I suggest you find a proper rationale (if any) for your repeated reverts. At least yours could be blanking vandalism... NikoSilver 15:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Leven is not an expert on the region and his opinions are far from being mainstream, he basically wants to give examples about the evils of nationalism and nation building practices..

It is unrelated but i just wanted to say it, St. Clair who is an expert in the 19th centry greek history used the word "genocide" describing the mass killing of Turks in Peloponnese, im sure now youre going to open a separete article about it called "Claims of Turkish genocide in Peloponnese" as youre an examplary defender of human rights Niko..--laertes d 15:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I have the actual text of Mark Levene, and it only talks about Turkey in the early 20th century. No examples of evils and such. And yes, if you have such quotes about Greeks, I would be more than happy to include the information in the said articles. You see, I believe that we actually improve ourselves when we don't sweep our past mistakes under the carpet. I suggest you do the same. NikoSilver 15:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Dont make me laugh, youre the person who did everything for the deletion of pelopennese article when i opened a separete one based on completely neutral sources about the massacres in Peloponnese and thanks to the helps you received from some "administrators" it was censured..I can well suggest to {{main}}ed out the section about the organised greek atrocities in western anatolia during the greek occupation of it as there is a separete article called Pontic greek genocide.What happened there, by far deserves more the title "claims of genocide".. --laertes d 15:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Your article was deleted by consensus because of a previous AfD, because it was almost a copyvio, poorly written, lousy sourced, and a WP:POVFORK of massacres that happened from both sides. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Massacres in Peloponnese for a reflection, and remember that I have not intervened since then in your (some times irrational) expansions in the Greek War of Independence#Massacres during the revolution to which all salvageable information was supposed to be merged. NikoSilver 16:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

By contrast, I am not aware of any Turkish civilians being killed by Kurds at that time, so placing all this in here rather than on a separate article is debatable, and instead of blanking it you should be at least grateful. NikoSilver 16:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, using scare quotes for our administrators to discredit them will not help you. I cannot discuss this any further if you do not refrain from repeated personal attacks and bad faith assumptions for your fellow editors. NikoSilver 16:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Returning to the topic, Levene's ideas are far from being mainstream and and he is the only person that talks about a genocide in the conventinal sense. The rest mentions about a "cultural genocide" whihc is not the sam thing..--laertes d 15:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

And that may be a good reason why we have smacked "claims" and haven't {{main}}ed it out yet. But what you were doing was deleting sourced content, and that is unacceptable. NikoSilver 16:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

bla bla bla..., i used the mainstream academical sources about the greek war of independence and they were not copyvio of anything, but this is not the right place for discussing it..--laertes d 16:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

And as i said there is a quite notable historian who uses the word genocide for the mass killings of Peloponnese, then lets open a section named as "claims of Turkish genocide in peloponnese" but without having maining it out yet..--laertes d 16:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Just say it in advance, if these completely unrelated "pontic greek genocide" thing would stay, im going to add some few sentences about the near genocidal acts of the greek army in the same period during greco turkish war..Just take relevant parts from Levene which are about Kurds..--laertes d 06:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I would not disagree with the title "cultural assimilation", nor reference to Fernandes who makes the claim of "cultural genocide". However, I think there are more relevant sources to be used than Levene, especially since assimilation is an important issue. --A.Garnet 08:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Simply put, there is no consensus in deleting sourced material by accredited scholars like Levene on the basis of "more relevant sources" which have not been presented by the way. NikoSilver 21:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

There is only one scholar Niko, not scholars "like Levene"..And you still didnt answer my question regarding the mass killings in Peloponnese, St. Clair used the word "genocide" in relation to them, George Finlay mentioned by them as "extermination of Turks" and both of these guys are experts in greek history.. it is by far more appropriate to open an article naming Turkish genocide according to your "logic"..--laertes d 22:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I said "I haven't intervened" in these articles and as you see I continue to do so. "Scholars like Levene", doesn't imply "many" and there don't have to be many. This section has survived two XfDs and what you are doing is unilateral deletion of sourced material. NikoSilver 22:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

not the section of "genocide" bu the idea of having a separete article about the human rights of kurds have passed..--laertes d 22:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

And as always same tricks, same stupid games, same nonesense talking im really bored with these stuff, just to say it advance i dont give a damn aif somebody is going to block me for it i am going to revert as hell..Write whatever hell are you going to write, i so far didnt delete aynthing that is sourced, just changed the title of the section..

There is only one scholar who use that word genocide and he is using in a meaning he himself created, there are millions of kurds in turkey, and genocide is not a conveniet term..By contrast there isnt any turk in Peloponnese who were butchered in thousands, yet we cant even open a separete article about it..--laertes d 22:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

1. You're wrong, the XfDs were about the genocide section and redirects (just click them), but feel free to file a third one. NikoSilver 14:00, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
2. You are not helping yourself with this second paragraph. NikoSilver 14:00, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
3. You included "genocide" in the relevant section [1] (as retribution? as a WP:POINT violation? -whatever) and I (at least) didn't revert you. The separate article issue has been discussed in 2 AfDs and has been decided that given that massacres came both ways it would be undue. NikoSilver 14:00, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, the Kurdish genocide article created by Ploutarchos was a WP:Point violation in response to the dispute on the Pontian Greek genocide article. Secondly, the afd for that article was a vote stacking joke, and since Wikipedia is not a democracy, I do not feel inclined to take it seriously, not least when WP rules are being so clearly violated. Thirdly, the second afd was for this article, human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey, which is of course a valid subject, not the section on Kurdish genocide. So no, I do not see any justification for this section, it is undue weight, it is the result of petty wiki disputes and poor conduct by editors turning wikipedia into a battlefield. --A.Garnet 09:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

And yet, you have failed to cite any sources to contradict those provided. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 09:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

This ridicolous argument was used a lot on the Pontian article to justify its existence, but as i said there, the burden is on you to first prove it is a signficant academic opinion before you ask for sources to counter this tiny minority view. You can keep shouting Levene! Levene! but just having an author mention the word genocide in connection to Kurds does not make the view necessarily encylopedic or noteworthy. --A.Garnet 10:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

And I say that you have to prove it is a tiny-minority view, by citing a significant number of alternative sources that dismiss the genocide thesis. We can't simply take your word for it. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't take my word for it, i've invited others to comment. --A.Garnet 11:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Section break

I've made some changes to the section.

• Changed the title to Cultural genocide instead as per the content of the section.
• Removed the paragraph about Turkey displacing its own citizens in Southeastern Anatolia as it has nothing to do w/ any cultural genocide against anyone.
• Removed Levene's quotes as they emphasize more about the 1878-1923 Ottoman period. It is also considered as quote farming → {{Template:Quotefarm}}.
• Removed POV tag as a consequence. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 14:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

• • The section talked about bona-fide plain genocide (Levene).
  • Displacement is indeed not related by the context, possibly some sort of argument was made?
  • Levene speaks about "the last 100 years" in one quote, and "until 1990" in the other. Levene's work does not "emphasize more about the 1878-1923 period", and interested parties can receive by me the full text by e-mail on request. NikoSilver 20:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Changes as a consequence:

• Added Levene's quotes in the background section.
• Added a sentence after Fernandez regarding Levene's contemporary remarks, and extension of the genocide to a lot more than "cultural".
• Cleaned up a few stray headings. NikoSilver 20:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The title of the section should be changed to reflect the content of both sources, and I think that striking "cultural" is in order. I'm not doing it myself though (yet). NikoSilver 20:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hı FayssalF thanks for your sane approach to the ıssue first..Upon your edits i am going to suggest some few changes, it was me back some time ago who changed the name of the section from "claıms of kurdish genocide" to "claims of forced assimilation", then Nıko opened a new section with the tıtle genocide after reversıon war..These two sections basically deals with the same issue therefore i thınk they have to be merged into one..

Another issue is with the name of the section, ı think it has to start with the assertion that these are claims about the cultural genocide, there is not a consensus of opinion among scholars and there has to be sıgnıfıcant amount of historıan who are makıng such claims ın order to make such a definite suggestion.. --laertes d 13:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The section was here before you even registered and you deleted it. I agree with "claims" btw, but why did you revert me? NikoSilver 20:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

i did not delete it Niko as you may notice, i simple merged these two sections which are about the same exact things..and check it better, there wasnt such a section called as "Forced assimilation", i renamed it as such some days ago..But of course that's something you already know, right? Just your daily dose of POV pushing..

thats the version before i changed it, written by you..

[[2]]

I cant see two different sections, can you Niko?--laertes d 20:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

If it's not different, then you won't mind me reverting. And yes, you did revert me: [3] and you also reverted the minor edits along with the rest.

Here is the comparison. Show me where there's a mention of Levene in your version? NikoSilver 20:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

And I'm done taking personal attacks from you. I take issue with "just your daily dose of POV pushing" and such, and you'll be reported in every single chance. NikoSilver 20:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Please do so, but in the meantime reply my question, can you see two different section as Forced assimilation and cultural genocide? This was your version of the story and it was your edits only some few days ago and you recently claimed that it has been there for years..--laertes d 20:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

This is not my version, this is the version of FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®}, thats a third party opinion.. i reverted your recent edits to the version FayssalF prepared..

And again thats also something you already know, and thats also nothing but your daily dose of POV pushing..--laertes d 20:58, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Im waiting for a reply, you made two strong claims and i suggest youre well knowing that they are false assertions when saying them..

First, you claimed there were two section as forced assimilation and cultural genocide for years, i showed that just five days ago in an edit made by you there wasn't..

Second, you claim this version is made by me, i showed that it wasnt made by me, but it was a third party administrator opinion..

there is no insult in here, but you consistently either lie or manipulate things in order to get an upper hand in the discussion, that makes you highly unreliable, and not fit for a serious, decent discussion and foremost not fit to edit this particular article...--laertes d 21:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Replies:

• The section in March ("cultural" euphemisms removed): [4] and your first edit in this article in June: [5]
• I said you reverted my modifications after Fayssal
• Your block log suggests better who is better fit for a discussion, but I don't hold that against you. Still, if you persist in addressing your fellow users (including me) rather than the content, you will be blocked, for your third time for personal attacks. NikoSilver 21:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

thats a Nikosilver classical, youre again manipulating things. There was one single section not two, whatever its name, be it "forced assimilation" or "cultural genocide", and now there is two and they word by word say the same thing..Thats something you know, but again you chose to manipulate things in order to get an upper hand in the discussion..

FaysallF made his edits and you simple reput everything according to your single point of view, before the version of his edits..that also is something you know well and again you chose to manipulate argument..

Third, instead of focusing on the issue in hand and discussion we're having now, you brought up unrelated things like how many time that i am blocked..Again a manipulation of arguments in order to get an upper hand in the discussion..

Lastly, now you started to threaten me that i am going to be blocked, i also take it as a manipulation, as it shows you have nothing to reply other than threats..

--laertes d 22:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

To the points you raised:

• You reverted me completely without response, explanation, reply, whatever. [6] Then you merged. [7] I didn't reinstate a repetitive section, I added stuff about the background in the background section. [8] I also added a freakin' sentence about the present, in the section that talks about the present. [9] Both are sourced.
• Fayssal is an editor like all of us, with a few extra buttons (WP:ANOT as he himself would probably say). He made an edit assuming Levene was talking about early 1900s. Levene wasn't, and I said so. [10] Nobody replied.
• Your block log is there to remind you of your mistakes. You've been blocked for attacks to other editors twice, and I don't see you taking the message, so I thought I should stress it, after *four* times that I have already warned you only here! (right above)
• I'm sorry if you see a threat in a simple and civil WP:NPA warning (which btw is foreseen by policy -do read it). Yet, you keep insulting me in every edit of yours... NikoSilver 23:19, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

i reverted you because of the simple reason that you reput the same things albeit in different places..you never discuss any issue in talk page but directly engage in manipulating arguments to prove yourself right. here again you made another one, call it an insult but you again lied, thats what FaysallF said : "Removed Levene's quotes as they emphasize more about the 1878-1923 Ottoman period. It is also considered as quote farming " thats not the same thing with what youre claiming, right?..anyway im bored with the discussion as it seems nobody is going to do anything with you, i think i do take wikipedia too serioulsy to waste my time with you, but it is absurd, so have fun..--laertes d 23:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)