Talk:How Not to Live Your Life

Internal link

The links to Dan Clarke go to the racing driver and the dab page linked from that doesn't have this Dan clarke so I'm removing all the links until someone sets them to the right place.(Morcus (talk) 00:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC))

Pilot episode

The first episode, 'Home Sweet Home', was actually first broadcast as a pilot about a year ago. Should be mentioned in the article somewhere - anyone know the exact date? 87.115.15.132 (talk) 22:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

It seems that my edit has been reverted. I watched both the pilot AND the first episode of Season One, and they were exactly the same. I think my edit should be put back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Svivian (talk • contribs) 19:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

There are a number of sources that state there have been a total of seven episodes of the programme, the pilot plus the six episodes of series one. On the page about the programme on IMDB David Armand and the other supporting actors are listed as appearing in the series one episodes, with only Dan Clark having appeared in the pilot in 2007. It also lists a number of actors who were in the pilot but who weren't in the series. Clark has also said that the pilot was filmed at a different location with the pilot filmed in a real house but with the series filmed on a set. Clearly there is something not quite right. I have though emailed the production company to sort it out.--♦Tangerines♦·Talk 21:12, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Edits

I rewrote the introductory paragraph to give an overview of what the programme is about while removing the previous comedy it replaced. I don't think it's relevant considering the page is mainly about How Not To.. rather than what was scheduled before its airing etc. Removed wikilinks of character names as they linked to disambig pages rather than anything remotely related to the show. Some spelling/grammar fixes and added or rewrote a few other stuff. I also included information about an American version of the show, but I'll try and find a more recent link relating to that.

Removed 'See also', it gave links to BBC Three and BBC pages, which (to me anyways) seemed pointless - there's wikilinks within the article anyway. londonsista | ^Prod 00:00, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

BBC Portal

Just wondering if there was any need for the BBC portal category box thing at the bottom of the page? I've flicked through a few other comedy shows from the BBC and they don't have the portal. It just seems like it's vaguely connect to How Not To... ? londonsista | ^Prod 00:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Fake Wake

Any particular reason as to why there can't be an episode summary for the episode: Fake Wake? The edit was reverted and no reason was given. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.126.163.20 (talk) 21:48, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Central character's age

The first paragraph states he is 29, the plot section states twentysomething; the pilot summary states thirtysomething. He can't be in his thirties in the first ever episode, but become 29 or less later on. I only remember the series stating his age as 29, but I don't think I saw the pilot. Is their actually a contradiction in his stated age in the show, or is the article wrong? F W Nietzsche (talk) 00:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus —harej (talk) (cool!) 19:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

---

How Not To Live Your Life → How Not to Live Your Life — The current title is how the programme itself capitalizes the title. However, we have our naming conventions, which say that the word "to" as part of an infinitive should be uncapitalized, and trademark guideline, which says that standard spelling and capitalization rules take precedence over the trademark owner's preference (rhyme unintentional). Therefore I think this article should be moved back to How Not to Live Your Life. Jafeluv (talk) 08:54, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose To begin with, I'm going to ignore your talk of trademark guidelines, because apart from the special conditions it lists for business products, it refers the reader back to Wikipedia:Naming conventions. What is perhaps more relevant is when Wikipedia:Naming conventions states: The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists. A reader of Wikipedia is probably not going to bother capitalising anything in their search, however were they to it is more likely that they would capitalise the "t" because that is what the programme itself does. And WP:COMMONNAME clearly states: title an article using the most common name of the person or thing that is the subject of the article. So therefore, although the "t" should normally remain uncapitalised, it should not in this case. And of course, there is always WP:Ignore all rules, a guideline which has been followed in the past on similar topics. See Numb3rs - it should be written Numbers, however the show markets itself as Numb3rs therefore that is the title of the article. There are times when it is better to just use common sense - this is one of those times, entitle the article the way the show is titled. Alan16 (talk) 13:09, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support. Both Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization) and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks) are clear in this case, that titles should "follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting "official"". WP:COMMONNAME also clearly states that it does not apply when "other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication". This accepted naming convention is applied across thousands of TV, film, book and music titles, and this title has no mitigating reasons why it should not follow them (Numb3rs is a different case). Also, redirects are cheap and are standard in cases like these (we also categorise them with {{R from other capitalisation}}). mattbr 07:37, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

• Comment The first thing said in WP:Naming conventions is that The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists. With this in mind, it makes sense to call the article the same as the name of the programme. Just think about it for a second - if a reader came on here and wanted to look at the article for the programme entitled How Not To Live Your Life, what is the reader most likely to look for? People need to use their common sense a little more, and realise that most readers aren't editors, and most will never have heard of WP:Naming conventions - they'll just know the name of their programme and expect an article of the same name. And finally, it seems that it is easy for you to say Numb3rs is a different case - see Se7en, it is not called that even though I believe it was broadcast as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alan16 (talk • contribs) 13:57, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

• Capitalization is a style issue. The same name can be capitalized differently in different situations, depending on what "looks better" in the context. For example, the starting credits of a programme can be shown in ALL CAPS, Title Case, Capitalize Every Word, or even all lowercase, depending on which one looks better on the screen. This does not mean that it's the only "correct" way to capitalize said title. The BBC uses "How Not to Live Your Life" itself. It's not a spelling mistake, they're just applying their own style guide and using title case in programme names. Numb3rs would most likely be named Numbers if that title wasn't used for something else. A disabiguation method is needed to distinguish the series from the other numbers article, and using the "official" spelling is a valid alternative to Numbers (TV series). In Seven (film), it's been decided the other way around, for some reason. Jafeluv (talk) 14:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

• Comment Exactly! It is a style issue - it is for aesthetic purposes only. If it can be capitalized differently in different situations, then Wikipedia should use the name of the programme itself, not that which is most aesthetically pleasing. The BBC in fact uses "How Not To Live Your Life" - your link is old and basically broken. We need to use common sense here, and use the title which is optimized for the reader - the most important policy on the WP:Naming convention page. Alan16 (talk) 15:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks for correcting the link - I found it in the article's references section. It should probably be corrected there as well. Jafeluv (talk) 15:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

• I think your link was for the pilot they filmed a while ago, which they then re-filmed. Alan16 (talk) 15:36, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

• The lowercase 'to' is optimized for the reader; it is using the standard naming convention applied across the thousands and thousands of TV, film, music and book articles on Wikipedia, so that if you want to find the correct page, you can. Without it, titles would be all sorts of different capitalisations and there would not be a common and coherent style across the encyclopaedia. When using the search box, the user will most likely type without any capitalisation, and this is accounted for. Otherwise, there are redirects to ensure you get to the right place if you link incorrectly. WP:COMMONNAME is for deciding whether the article on the British Broadcasting Corporation should be at that or BBC, and so on. The Numb3rs/Se7en issue is not to do with capitalisation and is therefore a different case. mattbr 17:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

• Comment No offence intended, but did you even read what I said previously? Most people who read Wikipedia know very little about Wikipedia and probably a hell of a lot less about WP:Naming convention, they will be looking for an article which corresponds to the title of the programme. What you are doing is making the mistake of assuming that people who read Wikipedia are doing it on a regular basis, and I think this is completely wrong. Most people will be reading one or two articles, not dozens. And most people probably will type with no capitals, that's why How not to live your life is a redirect - that shouldn't mean we can then bastardise the name of a programme so it suits our conventions, but it is what we are doing. You're letting rules get in the way of common sense. And the Numb3rs Se7en issue is relevant, because one of them is at an article with the actual name, the other at the name without the number in it - it shows the flexibility of the rules. Alan16 (talk) 19:29, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

• The title card of the programme is in all caps, so isn't that the true format? A BBC News article on the series uses a lowercase 'to'; are they 'bastardising' the programme name or are they applying their own style convention? What about The Stage? Or The Independent, who use both capitalisations? If you disagree with Wikipedia's style convention, then you should raise it on the appropriate talk page. The search box will automatically take you to the article whatever capitalisation is typed; there is no need for How not to live your life or knowledge of Wikipedia's style conventions. mattbr 07:23, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

• Comment I've realised from other occasions on Wikipedia, that it is pointless arguing with people with rules on the brain. Let's just wait wait and see if anyone else has an opinion. Alan16 (talk) 16:55, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Comment We could really do with some more people here so we can actually reach a consensus. Alan16 (talk) 15:33, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Move requests usually stay at Wikipedia:Requested moves for 7 days, so there's still plenty of time for additional people to comment :) Jafeluv (talk) 15:39, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

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