Talk:House of Luxembourg

Latest comment: 1 year ago by Andrew Lancaster in topic Removed material

title of this article needs review

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This is really the Limbourg (Limburg)dynasty of Luxembourg. The House of Luxembourg would be the original dynasty directly descended from Siegfried I. That was followed by the Namur dynasty (Ermesinde I) and only then the Limburg dynasty (Eermesinde II). Alternatively those three original dynasties could be listed under House of Luxembourg (plus all the relevant branches).

--Caranorn 16:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

And another note, the supposed Luxembourg family tree actually is a family tree of the (Hohen)Staufen and only shows the last few rulers of the Limbourg-Luxembourg dynasty. Unfortunatelly I have no time (I'm already busy trying to complete the list of Luxembourg dynasts on the Luxembourgish pages) to either extend this article or clarify which dynasty it concerns.--Caranorn 12:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)Reply
I agree. We are using the name Luxembourg to refer to German royal dynasties, but the term house of Luxembourg is I think more often used for a branch of the House of Ardenne. What's worse, our article on that family does not mention this branch at all. Ardennes-Verdun dynasty--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:55, 1 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

Restating what is said above, I guess.

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In particular, Ogive of Luxebourg links are being redirected to this page, but it mentions nothing of her, her father, siblings, or her son. 08:02, 28 November 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Collision-Shift (talkcontribs)

Proposal. Articles names and moves

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I will post also at Ardennes-Verdun dynasty. Anywhere else? I propose.

  • We move/rename House of Luxembourg to more specific Limbourg-Luxembourg Dynasty, like other Holy Romen Empire dynasties. Spelling is based on local modern spelling preferences and avoiding confusions between different Limburg/Limbourgs. But potentially it could be "Limburg".
  • We create House of Ardenne-Luxembourg as a sibling article to Ardennes-Verdun dynasty covering the other main branches of the House of Ardennes. The descendants of Count Sigefried etc.
  • We move/rename Ardennes-Verdun dynasty to House of Ardenne-Verdun to be consistent. (Scholars tend not to use the "s" for some reason.)
  • We create either a stub/dab page for people searching for House of Ardennes. For now the main articles will be the two main branches but this article can cover the first generations and anyone not in the main branches.
  • We create a dab for people searching for House of Luxembourg, House of Luxemburg etc, given the options of the Limbourg-descended dynasty or the older Ardenne-Luxembourg family who they descend from.

Please note any concerns or tweaks needed to this plan. Otherwise I think it is clear enough to go ahead?

Citation: Parisse, ‘Généalogie de la Maison d'Ardenne’, La maison d'Ardenne Xe-XIe siècles. Actes des Journées Lotharingiennes, 24 - 26 oct. 1980, Centre Univ., Luxembourg, (1981) 9-41--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:07, 1 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

UPDATE. Have done the move for this article, but I chose German spelling for the main article because I realized this particular article is for the German royal dynasty branch. Will create redirects for spelling variants.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:38, 5 August 2019 (UTC) Concerning redirects, the current use of Luxembourg dynasty and Luxembourg Dynasty goes to here and seem appropriate. Some of the others will need further checking.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:42, 5 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Andrew Lancaster: I think this should be moved back to House of Luxembourg, which continues to redirect here anyway. The German royal dynasty is much more famous than any other and it is what people mean by "[House of] Luxembourg [dynasty]". The hatnote can take care of the ambiguity. The current title is unknown to scholarship. Srnec (talk) 03:10, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
Indeed I never finished off the above idea of making a dab page, and your proposal could also work if the hatnote was done properly. I don't have a strong preference on how to finish things off. I suppose my original concern (it was some years ago) was to make sure we had a clear article about the descendants of Sigefrid (which is also certainly a topic known to scholarship, though under various names).--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:09, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:26, 22 August 2019 (UTC)Reply


Descent of the Dukes of Luxemburg

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Propose to update the page with the following: JMvanDijk (talk)


arms of Waleran III, Duke of Limburg
arms of the Counts of Grandpré and Counts of Loon
arms of Henry V, Count of Luxembourg, his father's arms of Limburg with addition of azure stripes leaving a barry of argent and azure.

The House of Luxemburg/Luxembourg stemmed from the House of Ardenne (or Ardennes, French Maison d'Ardenne) was an important medieval noble family from Lotharingia, known from at least the tenth century. They had several important branches, descended from several brothers:[1]


Cunigunda of FranceWigeric of Lotharingia
Adalbero I of MetzGozlin, Count of BidgauFrederick I, Duke of Upper LorraineSigfried of Luxembourg


The First House of Luxemburg

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The first instance of the house of Luxembourg, counts of Luxemburg, is outlined below.

When the male line died. Three houses descended from the women of the counts of Luxembourg, the Counts of Loon, the Counts of Grandpré, and the Dukes of Limburg. All three families had a place in relation to the succession of the House of Ardennes. Indeed, the Count of Grandpré was the next heir of Conrad II of Luxembourg, who was the last representative of the Ardennes dynasty. But, Emperor Frederick Barbarossa preferred that Luxembourg was held by a lord Germanic rather than French and attributed the county to Henry of Limburg-Arlon (see below), son of Conrad's aunt Ermesinde and Count Godfrey I of Namur. The Counts of Loon are also in position to claim the inheritance Luxembourg, albeit weaker position.

the First House (Ardenne-) Luxembourg simplified
Sigfried
(c. 922 – † 998)
(see above)
Count of the Ardennes, ruler of "Lucilinburhuc"
Henry I of Luxemburg
Henry V, Duke of Bavaria,1004
(d. 1026)
Frederick I
(965 – † 1019)
Count of Luxembourg and Salm
Dietrich II
bishop of Metz
(1006-1047)
Adalberon
archbishop of Trier
(1008-1046)
Cunigunde
Empress
(c. 975–1040)
Henry II, Holy Roman Emperor
Henry VII of Bavaria,
count of Luxemburg,1026
duke of Bavaria,1042
(died 16 October 1047)
Frederick
Duke of Lower Lorraine
Count of Malmedy
(c. 1003 – 18 May 1065)
Giselbert I
(c. 1007 – † 1059)
count of Luxemburg
Adalbero III of Luxembourg
(c. 1010 – 13 November 1072)
Bishop of Metz
ThierryHermann of Gleiburg
Waleran, Count of Arlon and Limburg
(see below the House of Limburg-Arlon)
Jutta
from her descends the house of Limburg-Arlon and the 2nd House of Luxemburg
Conrad I
(1040 † 1086)
count of Luxemburg
Hermann of Salm
(† 1088)
count of Salm
founder of the House of Salm
Henry III
(† 1086)
Count of Luxembourg
William
(1081 † 1131)
Count of Luxembourg
Matilda of NortheimAlbert II, Count of DagsburgErmesinde
(1075 † 1143)
Godfrey I, Count of Namur
Conrad II
(† 1136)
Count of Luxembourg
s.p.
Liutgarde
(1120 † 1170)
Henri II
(1125 † 1211)
Hugh VII1
(† 1137)
Count of Dagsburg
Mathilde1Folmar V
(† 1145)
Count of Metz
Henri IV²
(1112 † 1196)
Count of Namur and of Luxembourg
Counts of Grandpré
 
three children
died without issue
two sons
died without issue
AgnèsLouis I
(1110 † 1171)
Theobald I, Count of BarErmesinde
(1186 † 1247)
Waleran III, Duke of Limburg
Counts of Loon
 
three
children
Henry V
(1216 † 1284)
Count of Luxembourg
 


The county of Luxembourg thus went to to the eldest son of the 2nd marriage of Waleran with Ermesinde, deemed the heiress of Luxemburg.

Succession to the First House of Luxembourg
Cunigunda of MontjoieWaleran III
Duke of Limburg
Ermesinde
Countess of Luxembourg
Henry IV
Duke of Limburg and Count of Berg
 
Waleran
Lord of Fauquemont
 
Henry V
Count of Luxembourg
 
Gerard
Count of Durbuy
 
Adolphe IV
Count of Berg
 
Waleran IV
Duke of Limburg
 
Henry VI
Count of Luxembourg
 
Waleran I
Lord of Ligny
 

House of Limburg–Arlon/the (Second) House of Luxemburg

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Having succeeded to the county of Luxemburg, the younger branch of the House of Limburg-Arlon is the family that succeeded in getting one of its scions elected Holy Roman Emperor. From there descended the Kings of Bohemia, several other Emperors and a King of Hungary as shown below.


House of Limburg–Arlon/the House of Luxemburg
Waleran I
(† 1082)
Count of Limburg
Henry I
(1059 † 1119)
Count of Limburg
Waleran II
(1085 † 1139)
Duke of Limburg
Henry II
(1111 † 1167)
Duke of Limburg
Henry III
(1140 † 1221)
 
Duke of Limburg
Waleran III
(1180 † 1226)
  
Duke of Limburg
Henry IV
(† 1247)
 
Duke of Limburg and Count of Berg
Waleran
(† 1242)
 
Lord of Fauquemont
Henry V
(1217 † 1281)

Count of Luxembourg
Gerard
(† 1276)
 
Count of Durbuy
Adolf IV
(1220 † 1259)
 
Count of Berg
Waleran IV
(† 1279)
 
Duke of Limburg
Henry VI
(1250 † 1288)

Count of Luxembourg
Waleran I
(1252 † 1288)
 
Lord of Ligny
Ermengarde
(† 1283)
 
Reginald I
 
Count of Guelders
Henry VII
(1275 † 1313)
 
Holy Roman Emperor
Waleran II
(1275 † 1354)
  
Lord of Ligny
Adolf V
(† 1296)
 
Count of Berg
William I
(† 1308)
 
Count of Berg
Henry of Windeck
(† 1292)
Adolf VI
(† 1348)
 
Count of Berg
John the Blind
(1296 † 1346)
 
King of Bohemia
John I
(1300 † 1364)
 
Lord of Ligny
Charles IV
(1316 † 1378)
 
Holy Roman Emperor
King of Bohemia
John Henry
(1322 † 1372)
 
Margrave
of Moravia
Wenceslaus I
(1337 † 1383)
 
Duke of
Luxembourg
Guy
(1340 † 1371)
 
Count of Ligny
Count of Saint-Pol
Wenceslaus IV
(1361 † 1419)
 
King of the Romans
King of Bohemia
Sigismund
(1368 † 1437)
 
Holy Roman Emperor
King of Bohemia and Hungary
John
(1370 † 1396)
 
Duke of Görlitz
Jobst
(1351 † 1411)
 
King of the Romans
Margrave
of Moravia and
Brandenburg
Waleran III
(1356 † 1415)
 
Count of Ligny
and of Saint-Pol
John
(1370 † 1397)
 
Lord of Beauvoir
Count of Brienne
Albert II of HabsburgElizabeth of Luxembourg
(1409 † 1442)
Elisabeth
(1390 † 1453)
 
Duchess of Luxembourg, sold duchy to the Dukes of Burgundy
Peter
(1390 † 1433)
 
Count of Saint-Pol
and Ligny
m. Margaret of Baux  
John II
(1392 † 1441)
 
Count of Ligny
Ladislaus the Posthumous
(1440 † 1457)
 
King of Hungary and Bohemia,
Archduke of Austria and
Elizabeth of Austria
(1436 † 1505)
Queen consort of Poland, Grand Duchess consort of Lithuania,
from her descends the Kings of Bohemia and Hungary to 1918
Louis
(1418 † 1475)
 
Count of Saint-Pol
and Ligny
Thibaud
(† 1477)
 
Lord of Fiennes, Count of Brienne, Bishop of Le Mans
Jacqueline "Jacquetta" of Luxembourg
(1415/1416 – 1472)
1m. John of Lancaster, 1st Duke of Bedford
2m. Richard Woodville, 1st Earl Rivers,
one daughter was
Peter II
(c. 1440 † 1482)
 
Count of Saint-Pol
Anthony I
(1450–1519)
Count of Ligny
 
from here descends
the Dukes of Piney-Luxembourg
in France
Jacques
(† 1487)
 
Lord of Fiennes and Gavre
Elizabeth Woodville
(c. 1437[1] – 1492)
Queen consort of
Edward IV of England
from here descends the Houses of
Tudor, Stuart,
and the Royal Family of England
 


I am find these additions go rather far off topic and are not so clear in their intentions? What is the importance of Grandpré and Loon for example? And if we really wanted to show the earliest beginnings of counts of Luxembourg, and how they connect to this dynasty, are we doing it correctly and clearly?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:31, 8 September 2019 (UTC)Reply
Don't know how much clearer this can be. Feel free to clarify. Antecedents are important to those who are Luxemburgers (ask them, I travel there quite frequently). Grandpre and Loon had a claim to Luxemburg. If they had succeeded, history would have been very different. JMvanDijk (talk)
I noticed also that you made this page: House of Ardenne-Luxembourg. Perhaps a compromise could a that the chart of the first House of Luxembourg(-Ardenne) goes there. JMvanDijk (talk)
Yes, I think that the question of the links between earlier and later Luxembourg dynasties or "houses" is a subject relevant to several articles, and the approach you are taking might therefore help several articles. I am suggesting that in some places there is too much information, and in other places there some more explanation seems needed. For example, there is no mention in the article of Granpre and Loon making claims on Luxembourg.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:54, 11 September 2019 (UTC)Reply
Just updated the Luxembourg-Arlon table with some corrections and added some text to clarify. Put rest on Ardennes-Luxembourg article. JMvanDijk (talk)

References

  1. ^ Parisse, ‘Généalogie de la Maison d'Ardenne’, La maison d'Ardenne Xe-XIe siècles. Actes des Journées Lotharingiennes, 24 - 26 oct. 1980, Centre Univ., Luxembourg, (1981) 9-41

Removed material

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I'm removing some of the heraldry discussions and discussions about Loon and Grandpré and relatives in general. Apart from sourcing and notability I think that some of these topics are either for another article, or else they would need to be written up in some completely different way in order to show the relevance to this article. I think the main family tree should for example be a family tree of THIS family. One reason for posting this remark here is to make sure people realize there is material in the article history which might be useful elsewhere. Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:19, 6 July 2023 (UTC)Reply