Talk:Ho Yinsen

Yinsen as family name

(Note: The first two comments in this section were copied from User talk:Lowellian and User talk:AmasianCrasian.) —Lowellian (reply) 20:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

In this edit [1] to the article Ho Yinsen, you changed his family name from "Yinsen" to "Ho" in the name template. This is incorrect and has been reverted. Read the accompanying footnote to that template which explains that the character deviates from standard Chinese naming convention. —Lowellian (reply) 14:39, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with your change. I was born in the Republic of China, Taiwan, and as a Chinese person I am well acquainted with Chinese surnames. Ho is a Chinese surname--there is no such surname in Chinese as "Yinsen" in Chinese. There is almost none or rarely any Chinese surnames with more than two syllables or characters, and I believe it was the intention of the author to mean that Ho was his last name, not Yinsen (it's even seemingly in 拼音/Pinyin). Ho is a very common Chinese surname, which is 何 in Chinese. Please reference He (surname). You can also reference List of common Chinese surnames. Where are you getting that Yinsen is his surname? I really would like to see a source.

If you still insist that Yinsen is his last name, let's open up a discussion on the Ho Yinsen page. What sources do we have that document his last name is "Yinsen"? If we have a primary or secondary source, I'll lay off on this issue. It says that "Ho Yinsen was a pacifistic physicist, engineer, and professor from the fictional city of Timbetpal," which lends me to believe that he was just a common Chinese person, not of nobility or royalty. There is little reason to believe that he should have a compound surname.

If that's the case that Yinsen is his lastname, shouldn't the article be renamed Yinsen Ho since Chinese surnames always begin with the surname? See other Chinese articles--most Chinese articles on Wikipedia begin with the last name then given name (e.g., Wang Lee-Hom, not Lee-Hom Wang). To follow Chinese name order presentation, the article would have to be renamed Yinsen Ho.

Various portions of the article would need to be cleaned up. For example, "Tony Stark and Ho Yinsen" is incorrect; it would need to be written "Tony Stark and Yinsen Ho" if you still insist that Yinsen is his surname.

If you have any questions please feel free to write on my wall.

AmasianCrasian (talk) 08:04, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I am well aware that parsed as an ordinary Chinese name, the family name in "Ho Yinsen" would be "Ho" and not "Yinsen". In fact, I specifically added the note that this deviates from because Chinese names are a subject on which I am specifically knowledgeable. You don't need to lecture me about Chinese names because I speak Chinese myself and already knew everything you wrote above about Chinese names.

However, probably, the original creators of the character were not aware of Chinese naming conventions; they just put together a name that "sounded Chinese" without really being aware of exactly how Chinese names are structured. Western fiction has many, many cases of supposedly-Chinese names that are really merely pseudo-Chinese names which would not really hold up as Chinese names for those who are actually familiar with Chinese names.

As for sources showing that "Yinsen" is his family name and not his personal name, both the first comic in which Ho Yinsen appeared as well as subsequent comics have consistently treated "Yinsen" as his family name rather than as his personal name. This is evidenced by the following:

• In his very first appearance in Tales of Suspense #39 (March 1963), he is referred to repeatedly as "Professor Yinsen", not "Professor Ho". For example, Stark says in that comic, "Professor Yinsen, in college I read your books!"
• In Invincible Iron Man vol. 4 #12 (November 2006), Ho Yinsen's son is referred to as "young Yinsen", not "young Ho": "When the boy is killed by a S.H.I.E.L.D. sniper shot, a 'dead man's switch' young Yinsen preprogrammed into the mind-control implant is activated[...]"
• In Marvel Adventures Iron Man #1 (July 2007), Yinsen is referred to as "Professor Yinsen": "I know who you are, Professor Yinsen. I read your work in school."
• His followers call themselves the "Sons of Yinsen" and the "Church of Yinsen". They do not call themselves the "Sons of Ho" or the "Church of Ho".
• Other versions of him in other continuities often change his name, but they usually retain the "Yinsen" part; it is the "Ho" part that is most often changed.

In response to your final point, about ordering given that "Yinsen" is his family name, Wikipedia policy is to use the usual ordering per the general principle of Wikipedia:Use common names. The ordering in the comics gives "Ho Yinsen"; he is never referred to as "Yinsen Ho", and that is why this article should stay as "Ho Yinsen". This is not just a general principle following from Wikipedia:Use common names, but is in fact directly stated to be policy in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese). Quoting from the "General principle" and "Order of names" sections on that naming conventions page:

The encyclopedia should reference the name more familiar to most English readers. For most historical figures this means that the encyclopedia entry should reference the Chinese name (romanized in Hanyu pinyin) rather than the English name, with a redirect from the English name. However, there are exceptions for figures whose English name is more familiar (such as Confucius) and for figures who were raised in non-Chinese societies and whose Chinese names are unfamiliar (such as Vera Wang and Maya Lin).

[...]

There is an exemption for people whose Chinese name is familiar but with English ordering (for example, Wen Ho Lee). In this case, the primary entry should be under the English ordering with a redirect from the Chinese ordering.

The comics always use "Ho Yinsen" and not "Yinsen Ho", which is why the former ordering should be used for this article.

—Lowellian (reply) 20:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)