Talk:Hitar Petar

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not moving. No consensus to move, this discussion has gone nowhere. I'd advise Sonetnoir to refrain from personal attacks. GrooveDog FOREVER 01:35, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

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Hitar Petar → Sly Peter — The name of this folk character should be presented in English. The title suggests that his ethnicity is Bulgarian (even though the article is neutral to his ethnicity) due to the fact that the name "Hitar Petar" is the Bulgarian version of this famous folk character. If we rename/translate the page into Sly Peter, the ethnicity of this character is back to being neutral, as it should be.--Sonetnoir (talk) 05:10, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The character is Bulgarian. "Macedonian folklore" in the current context is not a term that has any history, it merely means what they consider heritage in the Republic of Macedonia. Before some time in the 20th century, the folklore of Macedonian Bulgarians was, you guessed it, part of Bulgarian folklore.

It's not a matter of folklore X and folklore Y sharing the same character. Folklore X of a certain region merely came to be known as folklore Y for political reasons.

"Sly Peter" pretty much doesn't exist as a name for the character. Todor→Bozhinov 09:22, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

It's idiotic to suggest that folklore belongs to any modern nation, especially in the Balkans after so much intermingling and cultural romances. Please get off your nationalist high-horse and be reasonable. Characters like Sly Peter appear throughout the world under different names, starting with Nasrettin Hodja and ending with various African folk tales (such as the tortoise in Nigerian folklore) - you cannot claim them all. Furthermore, while your nationalist hysteria and usurpation is typical and maybe even respectable for a Balkanian, it is highly ridiculous to anyone else. In the end, this is not the Bulgarian wikipedia, it's the English one, thus translate the name "Hitar Petar" into Sly Peter, don't transliterate it. Of course the name doesn't "exist" when you translate it into English ---> Example: Владислав Граматик is translated into Vladislav the Grammarian, not into Vladislav Gramatik. Thanks. --Sonetnoir (talk) 02:55, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not claiming Nigerian tortoises or Nasrudin and this article is not about Nigerian tortoises or Nasrudin. "Vladislav the Grammarian" is an established name for the Bulgarian scholar, we didn't make it up for Wikipedia. If you'd like the article to be named "Sly Peter", then concentrate on off-wiki efforts such as writing books in English about the character and use any name you wish. Then, if you make "Sly Peter" an established name in English, come back and leave me a message.

Finally, watch your tongue and show some respect to fellow Wikipedians. It's not like I provoked the kind of tone that you're demonstrating. But thanks for reminding me this is the English Wikipedia. Todor→Bozhinov 07:38, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

While I agree that Vladislav the Grammarian has been translated and established in the English speaking world, that is for a good reason. Itar/Hitar Pejo/Petar is not a world famous or a highly influential figure, because he is a much of a local Balkan character, obviously derived from Nasrudin Hodja. Furthermore, "Hitar Petar" is not a full name - because it consists of an adjective (Hitar/Itar = Sly, or Clever) and a first name (Petar/Pejo), hence the reason why the adjective should be translated into English. Your suggestion of writing a book about "Sly Peter" is laughable, because it's an obvious red herring. Also, I should say that you should watch your own patronizing tone, it's insulting to me as a human being for anyone to claim that folklore can be claimed by any nation, for the reasons I mentioned above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonetnoir (talk • contribs) 09:01, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I just searched on Google with the adjective "clever" instead of "sly" and "here's" what I got. As a result, I am moving this page to the "Clever Peter" title. Sonetnoir (talk) 09:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I fail to see more than 4-5 independent references, most are based on somebody's mistranslation of a single folk tale. I've already established that "Hitar Petar" is the most popular form of the name in English, so this is what we're using. Also, please don't attempt premature moves when the discussion is not over. Thanks, Todor→Bozhinov 18:41, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

First of all, popularity is not an indicator whether something is true or correct. We are talking about a folk tales "encyclopedia" by a professor who is an "expert" on fairy tales and folk tales. Here's "another book" on the matter. You can see the name "Clever Peter" in the table of contents, or you can find the book in Google's book search. Yet another book specifically designed for educators can be found "here", and I also found an academic article right "here". This ought to be enough, though I obviously didn't mention any other pages that seem more personal and unprofessional where the name "Clever Peter" once again appears. You also failed to reply to anything that I said. Sonetnoir (talk) 09:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Since the 7 day period has passed, I will move the page yet again, in a day or so, if no reply is presented.Sonetnoir (talk) 00:08, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this minor dispute is far from being a priority for me. In Wikipedia, we use the name that is most popular in English usage, not the most "true" or "correct" name. In fact, Wikipedia doesn't try to establish "truth" or "correctness", it aims for verifiability.

The sources you cite are a good start, but as hard as you may be pushing for it, you can't establish that a single translation of Hitar Petar's name is the most widely used and thus deserves to be the title. "Hitar Petar" is translated not just as "sly" or "clever" Peter, but also as "witty", "wily", "shrewd", "artful", etc. Just take a look. No translation of the character's name is established in English usage. That raises the question of why we'd want to use a translation of a name for the article's title instead of the actual name.

Once again, please refrain from any premature moves. Todor→Bozhinov 00:25, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move

As per the the two important points made by TodorBozhinov...

• In Wikipedia, we use the name that is most popular in English usage
• No translation of the character's name is established in English usage

...I am moving this article to Itar Pejo. --ДушкоДолгоушко (talk) 05:32, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

How did you establish that Itar Pejo is the most popular name in English? Certainly not using the Google hit method.

• "Itar Pejo" English-only outside Wikipedia: 1,340.
• "Hitar Petar" English-only outside Wikipedia: 7,000. And this is without including "Hitur Petur", "Hitar Peter", "Hitur Peter" and other relatively popular transliterations. Todor→Bozhinov 11:11, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive editing

Please both User:Anti political shills and User:Gaylordbush69 stop this game. If you simply disagree with someone's actions in an article, discuss it on the article talk page or related pages. If mere discussion fails to resolve a problem, look into dispute resolution. Thankyou. Jingiby (talk) 19:09, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

lack of macedonian sources of a macedonian figure + should expand more about the topic of Hitar Petar

why is a character based off macedonia and actively gained fame thanks to macedonians but you people use bulgarian sources? im not even trying to argue that hitar petar is bulgarian or macedonian because at the end of the day its literally a 16 century ottoman troll, but a character from macedonian origins should at least use macedonian sources to maybe help expand this article into a better representation, one thing ive noticed that the country of origins always write more in detail about their heroes, like with germans they document the germans way more better, but instead of looking at more macedonian sources which might help expand his backstory, and even linking some of the books and maybe even letters, its thrown out, it makes this wiki look more Bulgarian POV, doesn't help with the fact that the spelling of the article is in bulgarian, despite the character being set in modern day macedonia

Plus i think at least some of his well known stories should be added, such as the teddy bear bomb he made in the middle of the village, the time he pushed turks in the water behind their backs, or how he danced with someones boots, these are instant classics and are both referenced in macedonian and bulgarian folk culture, if an average english man comes to this wiki all they see is some macedo-bulgar who did some funny tricks, but the reason he became famous was because of his creative tricks which completely flies over the average english readers head

Before Jingsby or some pro-bulgarian comes to argue about the first topic i wanna just clear up and share my definition of macedonian in this case :

Macedonian - a person born in ottoman macedonia who used macedonian dialects to communicate

i am in no way trying to suggest that hitar petar is macedonian because keep in mind, this is literally a meme character in macedonian folk culture. not an actual important historical figure Gurther (talk) 01:19, 16 January 2023 (UTC)