Talk:History of the compass

Disputes about Sinan 司南, hence timeline of magnetic compass

This is a quick note for further investigation. I just saw this entry in Baidu Wiki https://baike.baidu.com/item/司南/3671419, and have not got time to research referenced research therein. In short, the following are expressed:

• Guiguzi 《鬼谷子》: Consensus today has it that this is *not* from the Hundred Schools period, but a fake in Jin dynasty (> 265 AD).
• Hanfeizi 《韩非子》 did refer to 司南. However, of the many references in literature from that era to Northern Wei and Jin dynasty, the most congruent interpretation of this term is the South-pointing chariot, not a lodestone spoon.
• Interpreting “司南之杓” in Lunheng《论衡》 as the "handle" of the Big Dipper is more congruent than as the handle of a lodestone spoon. Several recent studies also show use of 司南 (in non-chariot contexts) congruent with the Big Dipper.
• Multiple dedicated efforts to reproduce/reconstruct a south-pointing spoon using naturally magnetic materials by notable Chinese scholars have failed/yielded no practicable technique.
• The (national) Chinese History Museum has withdrawn its exhibition of the model lodestone spoon.

To me, this is an unusually well researched and well referenced Baidu Wiki entry. In particular, the first two sections, Summary _and_ "History" (历史发源) are still full of typical nationalist bravado, using stereotypical Party language. But starting from "Literatures", three big sections are laid out to dispute the timeline asserted in the first two sections. I view this contradiction as the strength of the disputes. I understand that this Wikipedia article is heavily based on Joseph Needham's tomes, which are also deeply revered by researchers in China. But if editors of Baidu Wiki are able to present strong counter points under the Chinese system, they should be taken into account.

Meanwhile, the same entry indicates that description of magnetism nearly identical to that appeared in Guiguzi also appeared in Lüshi Chunqiu, which is later than purported Guiguzi but still in Warring Kingdoms era.

Sillyvalley (talk) 10:21, 14 January 2019 (UTC) Sillyvalley (talk) 10:50, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Deletion of ungrounded speculation of transmission of the compass

Under the discussion of the possible transmission of the compass from China to Europe, there were a number of possibilities listed that all postdated Neckam's mention of the compass in Europe. Since the Mongol invasion of Europe, and contact with Europeans were after Neckam, they could not have been a factor in the transmission of the compass, Pierre de Montaigu, William of Rubruck, and Franco-Mongol alliance were all later than Neckam, and so those speculate comments were delete.

Since there is no actual evidence of transmission of the compass to Europe from the Muslims via the Indian Ocean, and the possibility of indirect transmission to Europe was already mentioned, those comments were deleted as well. But with a possible independent European invention of the compass, the possibility existed of a transmission of the compass from Europe to the Arabs, and there is evidence in the form of the Arabic word being derived from Italian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.111.162.10 (talk) 21:00, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Added back statement about transmission o the compass to the Arab world via Indian ocean — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.111.162.10 (talk) 21:26, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Possible Unreliable Source in "Gyrocompass" Section

"The gyrocompass was patented in 1885 by Marinus Gerardus van den Bos in The Netherlands after continuous spinning was made possible by small electric motors, which were in turn a technological outcome of the discovery of magnetic induction."

This sentence is cited from an article in the periodical IEEE Industrial Electronics Magazine, which seems to be the only source of information on this particular fact -- and indeed seems to be the only biographical information on one "Marinus Gerardus van den Bos" of the Netherlands. The reason this seems suspect is that the article this is sourced from does not give a source itself for this fact, despite being a secondary source that mentions this in passing. I'd recommend flagging this citation.Relkys2112 (talk) 00:11, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Update references to first appearance of compass in Europe and the Muslim world

The date 1190 was used for the first recorded appearance of the compass in both Europe and the Muslim world. Actually, this date is just for Europe, the first recorded date of the compass in the Muslim world is 1232. The article as originally written left the impression that the first recorded appearance of the compass both the Europe and the Muslim world was the same time, which is incorrect. While seemingly minor, the point is important for the issue of transmission. The first recorded appearance of the compass was a south pointing floating fish, which was similar to the Chinese. The first recorded appearance of the compass in Europe, which was earlier, was already of a north pointing needle. And despite what many have said, Neckam does not say this needle was floating. Both the dates and the the construction of the first recorded appearance of the compass was different between Europe and the Muslim world. It is important that the differences in the dates are made plain, because it is important for later discussion on transmission.

I also added a separate date for the appearance of the dry mounted compass in the European world. The earliest indisputable reference to a dry mounted compass for navigation in Europe was in 1269, not 1300. I said earliest indisputable reference to a dry mounted compass in Europe because earlier references to compasses in Europe do not say they used a floating needle in water, but the actual descriptions from earlier writers like Neckam and Jacques de Vitry do not say the needle was floating in water. It is an assumption, not supported by actual evidence, that these earlier references to the compass could not have been dry mounted compass.

1300 was the earliest Muslim reference to a dry mounted compass, and that reference was not even for navigation. Again, the article as originally written left a false impression that the dry mounted compass appeared at the same time in Europe and the Muslim world, but the evidence does not support that. The readers should be given the actual facts and left to draw their own conclusions. It must be noted, that Peregrinus does not try to justify the use of the dry mounted compass for navigation, which would have been the case if just floating needle compasses were being used for navigation during his time. And the first mention of a dry mounted compass in the Muslim sources in 1300 was not for navigation, but only to find the qibla. Muslims were still spe3cifically talking about floating compass needles in 1282, after Peregrinus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.111.162.10 (talk) 20:15, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Pre-Olmec 4000 years ago

Some recent edits are being discussed at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#This seems to be an mistaken interpretation of a source at History of the compass. Johnuniq (talk) 02:49, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Google Auto drive,external camera,compass,etc,

As described. Above. 72.136.99.158 (talk) 17:12, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

thanks. 72.136.99.158 (talk) 17:13, 7 January 2024 (UTC)