Talk:History of Sainis

Orphaned references in Saini history

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Saini history's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Saini Rajput":

• From Kshatriya: "In the Punjab in the sub- mountainous region the community came to be known as 'Saini'. It maintained its Rajput character despite migration." Castes and Tribes of Rajasthan, pp108,Sukhvir Singh Gahlot, Banshi Dhar, Jain Brothers, 1989
• From Saini people: "In the Punjab in the sub- mountainous region the community came to be known as 'Saini'. It maintained its Rajput character despite migration." Castes and Tribes of Rajasthan, p 108, Sukhvir Singh Gahlot, Banshi Dhar, Jain Brothers, 1989

Reference named "Saini Rajput3":

• From Saini people: "A few adventurers came to terms with the invaders and obtained from them grants of land. The Sainis trace their origin to a Rajput clan who came from their original home near Muttra [sic] on Jumna, south of Delhi, in defence of the Hindus against the first Muhammadan invasions.." The land of the five rivers; an economic history of the Punjab from the earliest times to the year of grace 1890, p 100, Hugh Kennedy Trevaskis, [London] Oxford University press, 1928
• From Gurdan Saini: "The Sainis trace their origin to a Rajput clan who came from their original home near Muttra [sic] on the Jumna, south of Delhi, in defence of Hindus against the first Muhammadan invasions." The land of the five rivers; an economic history of the Punjab from the earliest times to the year of grace 1890, pp 100, Hugh Kennedy Trevaskis, [London] Oxford University press, 1928

Reference named "Tyagi":

• From List of Saini recipients of military awards and decorations: "Jadeja, Saini, Bhati, Jadon", Martial races of undivided India , pp 189, Vidya Prakash Tyagi, Delhi : Kalpaz Publications, 2009.
• From Saini people: "Jadeja, Saini, Bhati, Jadon", Martial races of undivided India, p 189, Vidya Prakash Tyagi, Delhi : Kalpaz Publications, 2009.

Reference named "2nd Punjab":

• From List of Saini recipients of military awards and decorations: "The chief areas for Saini recruitment were the Ambala, Hoshiarpur, and Jullundur Districts. ", The Golden Galley: the story of the Second Punjab Regiment, 1761-1947, pp 313, Sir Geoffrey Betham, Herbert Valentine Rupert Geary,rinted for the 2d Punjab Regiment Officers ̕Association at the University Press, by C. Batey, printer to the university, 1956
• From Saini people: "The chief areas for Saini recruitment were the Ambala, Hoshiarpur, and Jullundur Districts. ", The Golden Galley: the story of the Second Punjab Regiment, 1761–1947, p 313, Sir Geoffrey Betham, Herbert Valentine Rupert Geary,rinted for the 2d Punjab Regiment Officers ̕Association at the University Press, by C. Batey, printer to the university, 1956

Reference named "Jemadar Gurmukh Singh Saini":

• From Saini people: "I will give you here the names of three of those men who have earned fame by their heroism. Jamadar Gurmukh Singh, a Saini Sikh of Gadram Badi in Rupar, won the 1st Class Order of Merit and the 2nd Class Cross of the Russian Order of St. George for his splendid courage on the night of the 1st March 1916 when he advanced under the greatest difficulties, continually crawling forward and digging himself in." War speeches (1918), p 128, Author: O'Dwyer, Michael Francis, (Sir) 1864–, Subject: World War, 1914–1918; World War, 1914–1918 – Punjab Publisher: Lahore Printed by the Superintendent Government Printing
• From List of Saini recipients of military awards and decorations: "I will give you here the names of three of those men who have earned fame by their heroism. Jamadar Gurmukh Singh, a Saini Sikh of Gadram Badi in Rupar, won the 1st Class Order of Merit and the 2nd Class Cross of the Russian Order of St. George for his splendid courage on the night of the 1st March 1916 when he advanced under the greatest difficulties, continually crawling forward and digging himself in." War speeches (1918), pp 128 , Author: O'Dwyer, Michael Francis, (Sir) 1864-, Subject: World War, 1914-1918; World War, 1914-1918 -- Punjab Publisher: Lahore Printed by the Superintendent Government Printing

Reference named "Saini Cavalrymen":

• From List of Saini recipients of military awards and decorations: "Men of this tribe not seldom take service especially in cavalry." Final report of the revised settlement of the Jullundur District in the Punjab, pp 84, W.E. Purser, BCS, THE "CIVIL AND MILITARY GAZETTE" PRESS, Contractors to the Punjab Government, Lahore, 1892
• From Saini people: "Men of this tribe not seldom take service especially in cavalry." Final report of the revised settlement of the Jullundur District in the Punjab, p 84, W.E. Purser, BCS, THE "CIVIL AND MILITARY GAZETTE" PRESS, Contractors to the Punjab Government, Lahore, 1892

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 01:58, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Indica

Bearing in mind WP:RS and WP:TERTIARY, can anyone explain why it is ok to use Encyclopaedia Indica as a source in this article? Google Scholar shows a mere 38 hits for the entirety of this (huge) work, and some of them are clearly not citations in the academic sense of the word. I note that it is sometimes used in the article in a manner that might be construed as a breach of WP:SYNTH also, notably in the extensive commentary of what is currently footnote #8. - Sitush (talk) 15:13, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Greetings Sitush, Anmol Publications is a reputable publication house and SS Sashi is very well-cited academic. Therefore , this source qualifies WP:RS. Here is an example of a British academic from University of Hull citing his work in a publication from this publishing house:

Grant D.B. “The Pursuit of Rigour in Logistics Research: An Empirical Example,” in R.D. Sharma and H. Chahal (eds.) Research Methodology in Commerce and Management, 2004, Anmol Publications Pvt. Ltd.: New Delhi, 110-134.. Here is another academic grade publication that cites Dr. SS Sashi: International journal of Dravidian linguistics, Volumes 29-30, pp135, University of Kerala. Dept. of Linguistics. The content of footnote# 8 is not an editorial comment but a direct quote from the secondary source. Thanks.--History Sleuth (talk) 22:24, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. What is your opinion regarding the tertiary aspect? Any decent tertiary source should be capable of being drilled down to the secondary sources, which are the ones that WP policies prefer. - Sitush (talk) 00:18, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Forgot to mention: (a) University of Hull is not (with my apologies to their alumni) a fantastic accreditation ... and (b) the link that you provide does not appear to be working here in the UK at present (might be a blip?) - Sitush (talk) 00:21, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

As of Oct 15, 2011 there are about 5,880 references to Anmol Publications on Google Scholar. Reputation of University of Hull nothwithstanding, this clearly indicates that Anmol is an acceptable publishing source for the acedemia. Regarding tertriary sources, it is not uncommon for editor to add his personal opinions within the text. Most encyclopedias are edited by established scholars on the subject. So their commentaries are kosher whether or not they adduce secondary sources. In thidistigns case SS Shashi is a pretty reputed scholar, being a winner of Padma Bhushan award.Thanks--History Sleuth (talk) 00:28, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

5k references to Anmol is, sorry, not a lot in the scale of things. See what you get for a university press. But that is not really my concern. What is my concern is that we should not rely on tertiary sources. Any decent tertiary source (of which Wikipedia itself is an example) should be capable of being followed through to a reliable secondary source, and preferably several of them. You raise an interesting point regarding the "it is not uncommon for editor to add his personal opinions within the text". This presents a potential problem for us here as we would probably need to distinguish between what is sourced by Shastri and what is his personal opinion. I know little about the various Indian awards, but they do appear to be numerous and I would place much more emphasis on how such awardees are viewed/cited etc by the wider circle of their peers than by, for example, a state or national government. It is, of course, not unknown for utterly stupid awards to be made by such bodies ... and this is not something that is limited to India by any means, although India is one of those that does have certain official stances that are not accepted by authorities outside of that country (especially regarding territorial issues). In the UK, I think it is generally accepted that an awful lot of awards are issued for reasons that bear little relation to merit. The litmus test has to be whether or not Shastri is generally recognised, and whether in this particular publication it is possible for us to get through his commentary to the sources of it. Well, that is my opinion at any rate. - Sitush (talk) 00:42, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Given below is a partial list of published articles SS Sashi which were cited in other peer-reviewed works. This would easily clear any litmus test about this author's citability:

• The tribal women of India, SS Shashi - 1978 -Cited by 27
• The nomads of the Himalayas, SS Shashi, Cited by 23
• The Gaddi Tribe of Himachal Pradesh: A Sociological Study, SS Shashi, Cited by 9
• Roma, the gypsy world, SS Shashi , Cited by 7
• Night life of Indian tribes, SS Shashi - Cited by 7
• Island Tribes of Andaman & Nicobar, SS Shashi , Cited by 3
• The Shepherds of India. A Socio-Cultural Study of Sheep and Cattle-Rearing Communities.SS Shashi, Cited by 2

To your other point, where tertiary source authored by a renowned authority on subject carries their editorial comment, this could itself qualify as an acceptable secondary source, since this commentary would be based on their independent synthesis of reliable sources at their disposal or close observation from their field studies. Example, Robert Audi's editorial comments in Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy would have full citable value because he is a renowned authority on subject. Also, there appears to be nothing in WP:TERTIARY that would impair the citability of such a source if full editorial control has been maintained. Wikipedia itself is in completely different class althogher since it would be a circular reference and because its editorial content is authored by anonymous users whose credibility cannot be guaranteed. Thanks.

PS: Encyclopedia Indica is listed in the following anthology : Worldmark encyclopedia of the nations, Volume 4, page 168 Gale Research Inc . It is cited in another tertirary source : Historical dictionary of Bangladesh , Syedur Rahman (Ph.D.), Craig Baxter, page 365, Scarecrow Press, 2010 --History Sleuth (talk) 04:05, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

It is still a tertiary source & I would prefer to cite the secondary source where possible. I will be ripping into this article over the next few weeks. It is a complete and utter mess of bad sourcing, bad writing and bad layout. - Sitush (talk) 07:18, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

People of India: Haryana

Can anyone see the Saini section from People of India: Haryana, Kumar Suresh Singh, Madan Lal Sharma, A. K. Bhatia, Anthropological Survey of India, published on behalf of Anthropological Survey of India by Manohar Publishers, 1994. It is around pages 429-431, although the range might be slightly wider. I would appreciate it if someone could scan the thing for me. - Sitush (talk) 18:14, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Here you go [1]. JanetteDoe (talk) 04:59, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Glossary of the tribes & castes of Punjab ...

Is Ibbetson/Rose/MacLagan's Glossary of the tribes and castes ... available online anywhere? I can see volumes 1 and 2 but it seems to me that this article is using volume 3 (even though it does not say so). - Sitush (talk) 10:57, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Enjoy [2]. JanetteDoe (talk) 05:01, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for these two - I'll get round to doing something with them shortly. - Sitush (talk) 11:30, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Saini

Why to create many articles on the same subject. Also, there is nothing specific in the history given in present article. MahenSingha (Talk) 08:30, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

The entire history segment needs to be updated as it talks mainly about British colonial history of saini rather than the actual history of the Saini people of punjab. refer sites like sainionline.com- There you have both history and references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.95.89.4 (talk) 08:41, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

• I would be happy to see the History article merged into the main Saini article, minus any unsourced content. IP, sainionline is not a reliable source. - Sitush (talk) 16:05, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support #1997kB 03:29, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

@Sitush: there seems to be a consensus for a merge here on this caste-related page; any objections? Klbrain (talk) 18:37, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

None, except as I said originally above, ie: no point in merging unsourced and unreliably sourced statements. - Sitush (talk) 18:53, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

@Klbrain: I have merged the relevant bits, deleted the unreliably sourced and just left the (unsourced) lead. I'm hoping you can complete the merge because I have lost track of how we treat the redirects since we began to introduce so many variants of that directive. The remaining content can be binned as unsourced for ages. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 19:10, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks; completed and hence  Done Klbrain (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

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