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Talk:Hip hop music/Archive 1

< Talk:Hip hop music
Latest comment: 5 years ago by Wpojim in topic New Hip Hop
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Latest comment: 18 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

hi i need help i cant breakdance as i dont know how to do it i want tol earn at home is there anyone that can give me a good website or give me good instructions to do a cool move a video willhaelp

First you could check out Breakdancing.Hyacinth 09:10, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Rap and Hip Hop are not synonyms.

If Rap Music is a synomyn for Hip Hop Music, then why is "One Mic" both a rap and Hip Hop song, whilst "Peaches and Cream" is only a Hip Hop Song, but not a rap song? I know the answer. The point is that Rap Music is a genre independent from Hip Hop. You can easily record a rap song without recording a Hip Hop song_ don't ya' think!!! ~Jack D. 4:14 UTC 8/1/04

"rap music" is extremely popular as a synonym for hip hop music, though. The encyclopedia should both acknowledge that people use it in that way as well as pointing out that it isnt technically a synonym. --Jamieli 11:44, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
"One Mic" by Nas is a hip-hop song, and therefore a rap song. "Peaches and Cream" (by 112, right?) is an R&B song, and is in no shape or form (or stretch of the imagination) a hip-hop song (I'm learning that not a lot of Wikipedians realize R&B even exists). The two (rap music and hip-hop music) are indeed synonyms. --FuriousFreddy 02:41, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Queen's 1979 single "Another One Bites The Dust" has been classified as hip-hop by various critics. As such, the song may represent some of the first influences of the genre on mainstream music outside of North America." Where can this fit in anyone?

Oh, please! Don't insult Queen like that! That was a real band, you know, one that plays actual music (which hip-hop is not), and Freddie Mercury actually sang in that song (which hip-hop "singers" do not).
You're right, there are clear differences. Freddie Mercury sing-raps the very simple lyrics with a consistent cadence and very simple melody, whereas most real rap lyrics feature elaborate shifts of cadence, more elaborate phrasing and more complex handling of rhythm.
Of course, the song is very obviously hip hop-influenced, especially considering the resemblance it bears to certain rap singles that came before it (like Kurtis Blow's "The Breaks"). John Deacon also helped produce Wyclef Jean's full-on hip hop remake of the song. So Queen certainly don't consider themselves to be above the work of "hip hop singers" (because, of course, rapping is trying to sing but failing horribly, just like playing the oboe is trying to play the cello but failing horribly), even if some of their more narrow-minded fans certainly seem to. --Jamieli 21:36, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Good thing you admit rapping is not singing. So why are they called "rap singers"? It'd be fine to call them "rap vocalists", because there is voice, even though there is no singing - and no music, other than whatever they steal (euphemism: "sample") from actual musicians' works.
"So why are they called "rap singers"?"
How am I supposed to know? You were the one who called them it.
No, it's just a widely (mis)used expression.
Widely misused by who? They don't say that in my hood.
"It'd be fine to call them "rap vocalists", because there is voice, even though there is no singing"
Wow, amazing! It must have taken years of intensively training your ear for you to become so incredibly musically astute to work out that singing contains melodies and rapping doesn't! Incredible! How I envy your ability!
No, silly, I'm merely implying that rapping is inferior to singing.
In what sense?
In the you have bad taste in music sense, maybe?
Huh? Are we going to have an actual discussion here or are you just going to post infantile "funny" links? Answer the question - in what sense is rapping is inferior to singing?
Please! It's self-evident! Singing is better than talking for a song because it is singing! ;-)
Why? They are different styles of vocals for different purposes.
But the lack of melody is just half the problem.
It's not intended to have melody, just like talking blues vocals and beat poetry aren't intended to have melody. Just like drums aren't intended to have melody. Rap is rhythmic recitative, not non-melodic singing.
Other than the form, the content - now I refer to gangsta and its ilk
We're not talking about the content, however, are we? We're talking about the medium. So this is utterly irrelevant. And "gangsta and its ilk" is merely a subgenre of hip hop which came about long after Another One Bites The Dust was being influenced by hip hop of the time and getting airplay on black radio stations.
Lyrics written in bad english
Yeah, everyone knows how enjoyable a piece of vocal music is is heavily reliant on how close the artist's method of speech is to Standard English. Hell, I bet blues artists' startling inability to talk like the Queen of England was what doomed blues music to failure!
and filled with curses,
Oh, heavens no!
that talk mostly of guns, pimps, bitches, Cadillacs, and assorted bling-blings. They carry a more harmful view about black people than any KKK leaflet. Such "artists" display themselves as inherently unethical, potentially criminal, isolated from reality, and proud of it - what a nice example for the kids!
Aside from the fact that this is irrelevant to what we're discussing, which is the medium of hip hop not the lyrical content of a minority of its artists, what does being a "nice example for the kids" have to do with anything? I suppose you don't like Led Zeppelin either because they glorify masturbating with dead sharks.
(sure, in a way, Another One Bites The Dust has a small similarity - its lyrics are kinda violent. But they do not praise crime, but instead they expose its dark, bloody side.)
Exposing the dark, bloody side of crime is of course unheard of in hip hop music.
"and no music, other than whatever they steal (euphemism: "sample") from actual musicians' works."
Just like those lousy jazzmen, always stealing from those poor Gershwins. Damn them all to hell! --Jamieli 09:49, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Did the jazzmen use electronic devices for that?
No, why? Do you have something against electronics? Are you Amish?
Nothing against synthesizers, and even occasional samples here and there don't hurt. But making whole songs by putting spoken words over snips from real artists' music is like copying bits of renaissance paintings, pasting them together, and saying you painted it. No, damnit, it's just a collage, bits of someone else's works.
Like that worthless piece of crap "The Waste Land" by that hack T.S. Eliot. Yeah. Boy, does that poem ever suck.
Maybe. Some people detest it. I will check it out when I have the time.
Be sure to run your upcoming thesis past some literary scholars and see what they think.
And explain to me how the jazz reliance on standards and shared chord progressions, the use of which is far more restrictive over what the eventual piece of music sounds like than the use of a small totally uncontextualized snippet of drums or sax, is somehow acceptable but hip hop sampling isn't? Explain to me how folk/blues tradition, which involves basically passing down the same exact song and writing new lyrics to the melody, is acceptable but hip hop sampling isn't? And please explain to me how some inspirationally bereft and barely competent piano player taking fifteen minutes to learn some really simple overused jazz standard like "Girl From Ipanema" and running through it without a hint of anything original and sounding like a million other people a million times before is artistically superior to Public Enemy taking 40+ tracks of samples from a myriad of disparate sources that stretch right across musical history and meticulously assembling and recontextualizing them together to create a final piece which sounds like absolutely nothing else ever created in the history of music. If you remove the irrational stigma attached to using someone else's recording rather than using someone else's chord changes and melody, you'll see your argument has little basis in anything artistic.
What a flawed comparison. Try taking any skilled composer creating something new for the piano or any other instrument. Now compare that to someone who just does a music collage. Maybe there's art in collage, but the best collage is nothing compared to a good original work.
A good collage work is good. A good "original" work is good. A bad collage work is bad. A bad "original" work is bad. Explain to me how the knowledge of whether or not a final piece is composed using excerpts from other recordings rather than composed using notes played on an instrument is going to affect how a piece of art is enjoyable or stimulating.
And as your reply unsurprisingly didn't address my point, explain to me what this mystery factor is that seems to make the jazz reliance on standards, borrowed chord changes and borrowed licks good or make the folk/blues reliance on borrowed everything good, and the hip hop reliance on samples bad.
(by the way, a large proportion of hip hop artists, and probably the majority of artists nowadays, use original sample-free composition anyway)


-- Aye, Another One Bites The Dust also sounds like an old school hip hop bass to me. Guess you (we/someone) should find more data about the song and start an stub about it. And mention which critics. Besides, we might include it in a section of tha Hip hop music page on influences of hip hop on pop, r&b, ragga, rock, nu metal and other music fussions.--Erri4a 18:19, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See: Chic's "Good Times": "In addition to defining the disco sound, Chic helped to inspire other artists to forge their own sound. For example, The Sugarhill Gang used "Good Times" as the basis for their hit Rapper's Delight, which helped launch the Rap/Hip-hop music format as we know today. And the group Queen got the inspiration for their hit single Another One Bites The Dust from Chic's familiar bass guitar riffs."
From "Another One Bites the Dust": "It was inspired by Chic's (Bernard Edwards & Nile Rodgers) 'Good Times'."
Lastly see DJ Grandmaster Flash's "Wheels of Steel", where Chic, The Sugarhill Gang, Queen, and Blondie meet. Hyacinth 19:26, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hiphopgenrebox

Why shouldn't {{hiphop}} be included in the article? The article is about part of hip hop after all. Tim Ivorson 09:55, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't understand your question. Template:Hiphopgenrebox is in this article. Tuf-Kat 14:36, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
Sorry. I wasn't paying attention when I wrote that. I meant the {{hiphop}} box. Tim Ivorson 17:07, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Oh, a couple reasons. First, a lot of people don't like footers -- I'm not one, but many people remove most footers on general principle, I think. Most importantly, the footer is supposed to duplicate the links in the genrebox that's on this page. The whole genrebox would be too big for the sub-articles, but the footer is more tidy. In this case, the links in the footer to country articles (e.g. French hip hop) were removed and made into a separate footer because keeping it all in one footer made it too large. The simple answer to your question is: the links in the footer are in the genrebox instead. Tuf-Kat 20:27, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
Okay. Now I think about it, the hiphop box seems obviously unnecessary here. Tim Ivorson 20:59, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thrash metal + hip hop

Tuf-Kat, one of your recent edits added, "...thrash metal and hip hop (called hardcore)." I'm not sure that this is accurate. The linked article makes no mention of metal. Tim Ivorson 23:24, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, you are correct. I don't have time to do much searching, but googling isn't helpful either. I think the issue is that "hardcore" refers to several different ideas. One, and the one which seems to have the most google hits, is anything "hard" as opposed to the soft pop and happy thug scenes (i.e. GZA, Tupac). Specifically, "hardcore" seems to apply only to East Coast rappers, and may be synonymous with mafioso rap (i.e. Kool G Rap, AZ). The sense which I am most familiar with is the mostly West Coast hard metal/hip hop scene from the mid-80s. Closer googling reveals that it is also used as an apparent synonym for horrorcore, so it's a complicated issue. I'll reword the article for now, and hopefully somebody will clarify hardcore hip hop. Tuf-Kat 23:39, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
Oddly enough, I wrote hardcore hip hop, and used the edit comment (i'm not sure this term really means anything at all). I think at the time, I was disambiguating hardcore and just wanted to put something down so there was an article there... Tuf-Kat 23:41, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)

Failed FAC nomination

This is mostly a self-nom. Tuf-Kat 23:32, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

  • Object. Comprehensive referencing and continuous prose is required in the "Further spread to the US and abroad" heading. Certainly well on the way however. - Aaron Hill 03:07, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. Lead intro is too long and should have some of the info incorporated into the main story. Haven't read the rest I'm afraid, so can't comment any further. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:33, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Lead is shortened. No info was lost, I believe. Tuf-Kat 04:42, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. Agree with Aaronhill, It's great up until the "Further spread to the US and abroad" section were the article degenerates into a list. The references section probably needs expanding as well, unless this article truly did only use two sites for information :) Zerbey 18:31, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • I don't entirely agree that the bullet points in "further spread" were bad, but I have changed the section into a paragraph form, and in doing so, tweaked the whole "diversification" section in the 1980s. Is this more satisfactory? I used a number of references, but don't have them handy and won't soon, so I will see if I can track down some ISBNs and such on google. Tuf-Kat 22:39, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
    • Some more refs have been added. AFAIK, all concerns have been address, so please re-object if needed. Tuf-Kat 23:30, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
  • Support. I think the section on spread abroad could use some work, but since its such a broad subject, it doesn't actually detract from the article by moving quickly from point to point. —siroχo 00:14, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
  • Object. Far from complete. The article stops at the early 1990s and, as others have indicated, the "international spread" part is horrible. In addition, the article should be written from an international standpoint. Hip-hop certainly originates in the US, but it is more international now. A list of non-existing articles on "national scenes" is also quite useless. Jeronimo 07:02, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • I would like to point out that heavy metal music never leaves the US and UK, punk rock does so only in a brief reference to Poland and jazz has a paragraph on Latin jazz and a few references to European jazzmen. All three are featured in spite of not being remotely internationalized. Tuf-Kat 10:30, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
      • Two things: 1) The fact that other articles "got away with it" doesn't mean all other articles can. 2) I think (but I'm not sure) that the articles you mention are from the "Brilliant prose" period, and have never been reviewed like the current featured articles. Perhaps this is a reason to re-examine them? Jeronimo 11:28, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
        • Perhaps, but my point was that the reason the poor quality of that section got attention is because it existed. It is far more comprehensive and fair-minded than any other source on the Internet, especially in its international coverage. Tuf-Kat 21:59, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism

This article has become a constant victim of vandalism lately. Tuf-Kat 04:36, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

Do you think it should be protected? Tim Ivorson 08:54, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
No, it seems to be reverted pretty promptly, so I think it's okay unprotected. Tuf-Kat 13:42, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

Definition

"Hip hop music is a popular style of music. It is composed of two parts: rapping (emceeing) and DJing; along with breakdancing and graffiti art, these are the four components of hip hop, a cultural movement which began among African Americans in New York City in the 1970s. The term rap is sometimes used synonymously with hip hop music, though it is also used to refer specifically to the practice of rapping, which is just one component of hip hop music"

Hip hop as a cultural movement is not defined.There's a pretty correct and useful definition for Hip hop culture:

"Hiphop is defined as the mode of consciousness, interaction and understanding that flows forth from it's four most developed and basic elements: 

Emceeing, B-Boying,Graffiti Art, and Djying." <--- wwww.hiphopcongress.com

Therefore the article should start like this:

Hip hop or [rap] music is a popular style of music belonging to the cultural movement called Hiphop which is usually defined as the mode of consciousness, interaction and understanding thatflows forth from it's four most developed and basic elements: 

Emceeing,Djing,Graffiti Art an B-Boying (Breakdancing)

IMO this would create a better more general approach.

I strongly disagree. I don't think hip hop is "usually" defined that way, and I'm not even sure what it means. In what way is hip hop a mode of consciousness, interaction or understanding? In any case, a deeper explanation of varying definitions of hip hop, attributed to those who hold them, would be better placed at hip hop rather than here. Tuf-Kat 00:52, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

This definition has the huge advantage that it considers every single aspect of HipHop and approves a wide range of styles and diifrent approaches.the propossed version has a few advantages:It actually allows you to put Gangsta Rap,and Conscious/Afrocentric hip hop in one and the same definition without any further specifying in the initial definition.

Consciousness:When people claim they "are hip hop "or do "hip hop" how else can you approve or deny it if not by the the things that actually form the culture? Interaction:Refers to battles or putting different elements together,for instance emceeing and deejaying which is the most common combination. understanding:is maybe less clear.it pays hommage to "knowledge" which is often referred to as the 5th element of HipHop.this is a typical Zulu Nation Approach though so you might contest it.

i do agree that the global definition would be better place in hip hp

I don't understand what you are trying to say at all. Why don't you propose specifically what you want to change at Talk:Hip hop and I and anybody else who is interested can comment on it there. Tuf-Kat 21:42, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not totally comfortable with the definition given here; how do we know where "hip hop" began? (No evidence is given in this article for the claim that it began in NYC, partly because the definition of hip hop you give here is almost circular -- "a cultural movement which began among African Americans in New York City in the 1970s" -- but -- what is it?). Note that DJing and rapping had been going on before the 70's in Jamaica. Furthermore, it is my understanding that not all of the founding fathers of Hip Hop in New York were African American. Finally, trying to define hip hop only in terms of its "four components" seems to be way too limiting. Tue Jan 25 11:26:42 2005

minor changes

I am working on small, but significant copyedits and corrections in the article (e.g.) Kurtis Blow being the first accused of selling out, not LL Cool J, removing the D'Angelo sample as this is a hip-hop article, not a soul or nu soul article, etc.). There is also a bit of subtle POV in places, which has been taken care of.

Also, the sample list needs to be ordered in ascending chronological order, from oldest to new, not the reverse. If I get enough time, I will add a sample from "Rapper's Delight" (which I am suprised to find is not here).

--b. Touch 16:58, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It's a great edit! Regarding the sound samples, "Rapper's Delight" isn't there because I don't have a copy, and I'm responsible for all the samples. I disagree with removing D'Angelo because part of understanding hip hop music is understanding how hip hop has had an effect on other styles, like soul. Also, nu soul (especially D'Angelo) is as much hip hop as it is soul (or nearly so, anyway). Any other opinions? Tuf-Kat 03:02, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)
It might be better to move the list to a samples of hip hop page, where length and the number of samples will not be as much of an issue. Tuf-Kat 03:04, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)
Isn't there already one though? And, as far as showing the influence of hip-hop on soul music, wouldn't it be beter to put a hip-hop soul record (any early Mary J. Blige single immediately comes to mind), rather than D'Angelo's "Untitled", which has next to no hip-hop influence present in it? --b. Touch 05:24, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Bob Dylan

I removed this:

Although Bob Dylan invented rapping with his 'Subterranean Homesick Blues',

You could say it's similar to what later became known as "rapping", or, more accurately, MCing in hip hop, but this song is no more of an influence than any other monotonically-phrased song pre-1970. For example, the Warner Bros. cartoon short Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs from 1942 is FILLED with what one might term "rapping", but hip-hop's influences are from West Africa, the West Indies (specifically Jamaica), and artists like James Brown and Gil Scott-Heron.

--b. Touch 02:19, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hip Hop and Rap?

I feel the need to point out that although the genres are often mixed, rapping is not an essential part of Hip-Hop. "Yeah!" by Usher definetely mixes dance beats with Ludacris rapping, and it can be called Hip-Hop/Rap. Most of the time Eminem and Jay-Z types are rapping without really a beat to dance to, but a song like "Hey Ya!" by OutKast really has no rapping in it.

This is not correct. "Hip-hop" and "rap" refer to the same exact genre of music. "Hip-hop" was the name given to the music, "rap" is what it was called when it became commercialized. The generaly accepted usage of the two terms in the present day essentially labels most commercialized hip-hop (anything by Ludacris, Ja Rule, etc.) as "rap" and artists who come closer to embodying the elements and spirit of hip-hop (OutKast, Common Sense, The Roots, etc.), as "hip-hop". Usher's "Yeah!" is an R&B song with strong hip-hop influences and a rapped verse from Ludacris. Even with hip-hop inspired elements, it is still an R&B song; Usher sings, not raps, the verses and the hook. And "danceable" beats are hardly a prerequisite of hip-hop. Many hip-hop rhythm tracks are made simply to suit the mood of the song and not for dancing purposes. For these songs, the "head nod" factor is more important than dancibility. Oh, and "Hey Ya!" isn't a hip-hop song; it's pop. Andre 3000's The Love Below (the album from which "Hey Ya!" comes) is not a hip-hop album; it's basically a progressive funk album. --FuriousFreddy 19:57, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 I am not sure if I fully agree with you interpretation of the two.  Rap as I remember was distinct from Hip-Hop, in that Hip-Hop was the commercialization of the genre.  Rapping has always been about spitting rhymes about something significant such as "The Message (Grandmaster Flash and Furious Five)" and "Keep Your Head Up (2pac)".  Hip Hop, the commercialization includes such songs (1) as "Rappers Delight (The Sugar Hill Gang)" and "Get Low (Lil John)" (2) clothing such as Addidas, Filas etc. tennis shoes, brand named polyester/rayon Jump Suits, exceptional large gold jewelry (3) Dances like break dancing, Popping, Moon walking, Body Rock etc. (4) Speech Mannerism: it began with an emphasis on articulation (e.g. Kool Moe Dee) and then devolved into hard slang and neo-jive (Do in part to the mainstream success of NWA).--MPA

Question from a musical pleb

What on earth is a "percussion break"? If someone who knows could create an article, that would be great! Even a stub would be fine :-) Ta bu shi da yu 01:07, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Already done, now redirected. Hyacinth 01:21, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Does Break (music) adequately answer your question? Hyacinth 01:18, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

emcee DJ

Should the article uses emcee and DJ, but it should be consistant using either emcee and deejay or MC and DJ--Clawed 01:13, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Bust a rhyme

So, who feels like compeating against my wikical lyrical prowless? >:) add all my articles to your page son, they simply flawless...

Cuz hip-hop, you're the love of my life... Baduizm


Project2501a 08:58, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

PS: slamming (rapping accapella) does not appear in the main article. Neither do Onyx or Saul Williams. Should I make those changes?

1) Wikipedia is not a freestlye board. Try here: http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi. 2) You mean slam poetry? Err...if you can integrate it, I suppose. Saul Williams should be mentioned as a slam poet, but Onyx would belong on a List of hip hop musicians. I just added them. --b. Touch 16:40, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

== [vandal attack fixed] == [[[User:Sprafa|Sprafa]]]

Removal

I have removed the below for various reasons, most importantly because this is not the place for it. We have lists (and categories) which collect the names of hip hop musicians, and placing them here is unwieldy and unuseful. Tuf-Kat 00:00, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

Hip-hop artists who have recorded hip-hop music in various countries and languages include the following:


Forgot about Dre?

Under the heading of 2000s, it is mentioned that "it was not until the sudden breakthrough success of the hard-edged 50 Cent that hardcore hip hop returned to the pop charts," when it was actually Dr. Dre's re-emergence with 2001 and production of G-Unit that brought back hardcore hip hop. - Stephen Lauer 3/4/5 1:03PM

By 2001, Dr. Dre was a seasoned veteran, and had left behind Hardcore hip-hop with Death Row. No one would belive that Dre or Snoop were still thugs or gangstas--they were full-grown men by this time. 50 Cent, on the other hand, was the first hip-hop performer since 2Pac to (a) cultivate a "gangsta"/criminal image and (b) become an overwhelming pop music sensation at the same time. --b. Touch 19:34, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[Huh?]

[snip] 

"While many remember the white teens shouting "disco sucks" at every 
available opportunity, often in racist and homophobic contexts"

[/snip]

What's this all about? I remember "disco sucks" being aimed at the white/grey co-op (think Disk Clark) on a top-40 level. But the underground & club beats were treated with nothing but awe by anyone I ever knew. Sounds like lefty fundamentalism. Though I lived in the South at the time, and from my experience nothing in the South could hold a candle to racism I saw when I first traveled to the North Eastern states.

Sale figures for eminem & nelly

Some anon changed the numbers around for the sale figuress for eminem & nelly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hip_hop_music&diff=0&oldid=15321578

anybody know what the real numbers are?

Project2501a 07:55, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The way it was before, with Em at nine mil and Nelly at six mil. I fixed it. --FuriousFreddy 17:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
thank you. Project2501a 21:49, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We got your wiki tapped, what you gonna do?
cuz sooner or later we gonna rv your whole crew
all we need now is right admit or two
to make all our articles stick like glue

Marsalis on rap / hip-hop

Latest comment: 18 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

"They take your drawers off for you, they show your ass, they sell bullshit, they call themselves 'niggaz' and the women 'bitches' and 'hos' and it's fine with everybody. That's what the essence of decadence is." - Wynton Marsalis [1]

Sounds like he's talking about mainstream gangsta rap to me, hardly applies to the whole genre. Would be like someone listening to Wynton Marsalis and deciding post-1970s jazz was nothing but soulless corporate traditionalists peddling recycled Bird licks to clueless middle aged rich white guys. But then that would be unfair to people who aren't Wynton Marsalis. Like, for example, his brother Branford, who is adventurous enough to meld jazz with such things as...*gasp*...hip hop, releasing two whole albums in collaboration with DJ Premier. And Wynton is pretty much on his own here - the jazz musicians who have dabbled in or expressed admiration for hip hop include Herbie Hancock, Freddie Hubbard, Donald Byrd, Greg Osby, Jason Moran, Don Byron, Kenny Garrett, Ron Carter, and Max Roach.
And by the way, if you're going to engage people in long-running discussions like the one we had up the page, don't suddenly abandon it for no apparent reason. If you don't want to finish, don't start. --Jamieli 12:07, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Sounds to me someone hasn't heard any of the new stuff by Restoring Poetry to Music *poetry bum* (thank you CryptoDerk) or someone didn't have his Jazzmatazz this morning. :D Project2501a 20:49, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Heads up

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

{{dj-stub}} Though i'd let you guys know :) Project2501a 20:49, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

BreakDancing and Grafitti as elements of Hip Hop?

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

While I would have agree with this 20 years ago, Breakdancing and Grafitti, as it relates to Hip Hop has long since been defunct.

Every few years breakdancing and popping will bounce back as a fad, but then quickly die hard.

I think that we should insert somewhere that these were of historical significance, as opposed to making me believe that the author got his information from movies such as "Breakin'".--MPA

Breakdancing and Grafitti are still very much elements of hip-hop culture, as they always have been and always will be. Note that there is a difference between hip-hop music and hip-hop culture. --FuriousFreddy 00:04, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Hip hop music/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)Press [show] to view →
The wiki for hip hop is completely the I have read on the wiki pages. There are no references to any of the classic hip hop stars. Basically every music reference on the page can be replaced with something alot better. I see no Sugar Hill, Grand Master Flash, Tribe Called Quest, Pharside, .... the list just goes on and on. Grouping "gansta rap" inside the same page as hip hop is defeating the point entirely. Mostly in my opinion this is an article about MTVs greatest hits.

Hip hop isn't music or a person. It is a culture. It is a way of dress, of life, and living.

Hip-hop and Rap are entirely different things. It is an absolute travesty that one can say that that one is another name for the other.

Hip-hop is a type of groove based around swung semiquavers and emphasis on beats 2 and 4 of the bar. Rap is a vocal technique applying rhythm to spoken words.

Rap can appear in any type of music, hip-hop is just one of them. RnB also has rap. So does Garage, Drum'n'Bass, Hard House and Techno and it would be foolish to rule out anything else one may care to name.

Hip-hop doesn't have to have any rapping in it to be hip-hop. If it's got a hip-hop groove, clever manipulation of samples, jazzy vibes, scratches, it's hip-hop. Hip-hop evolved from jazz, so don't be surprised to hear hip-hop with horns playing the main melody, or having a sung vocal line for that matter.

Most of the gangster rap music heard today is about as far removed from hip-hop as it is from smooth jazz. It contains very few of the same elements - the beats are minimal, there is very little rhythmic drive, there is rarely more than one sample used and it's not used very creatively and the rapping is often in front of the beat and the rhythmic feel straight. It's more like poetry with sound-effects than rapping in front of an upbeat driving bouncing groove, which is what hip-hop is all about.

Please can someone choose to write one article about hip-hop while another chooses to write about rap? It's true that rap came from hip-hop long before it expanded into other genres but in the context of the present you can't talk about both as if they're the same thing because rap has moved in all sorts of different directions while hip-hop is and always will be hip-hop, with or without rap.

Last edited at 01:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 20:31, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

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Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Semi-protected edit request on 11 May 2017

Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Put some full lyrics to rap music please and name this article rap instead of hip hop as rap is different from hip hop I love rap music (talk) 18:28, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

  •   Not done: We don't put full song lyrics on Wikipedia due to copyright restrictions. Regarding moving this article to rap there would need to be a consensus for that and I have a feeling that's been discussed before. —KuyaBriBriTalk 19:35, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 25 July 2017

Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

DJ Kool Herc. Clive Campbell (born 16 April 1955), better known by his stage name DJ Kool Herc, is a Jamaican American DJ who is credited with originating hip hop music in the early 1970s in The Bronx, New York City. 202.67.81.217 (talk) 06:16, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

  Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Izno (talk) 15:39, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

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Jarred ,

Hello, I think we should add more things to this hip-hop page explaining how hip-hop is evolving and adding more recent events to this hip-hop page. One thing that happened recently was that cardi b a female rapper had a solo number 1 record on the billboard which would be the second female to do so. We should continue to update this page with more recent events that are happening in hip-hop.


Thank you

Jarred

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Semi-protected edit request on 29 December 2017

Latest comment: 6 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

though rapping is not a required component of hip hop music; the genre may also incorporate other elements of hip hop culture, including DJing, turntablism, scratching, beatboxing, instrumental tracks, and singing. robstaf (talk) 19:52, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. JTP (talk • contribs) 20:06, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 April 2018

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This is a semi-protected edit request for the Hip Hop music page.

Hello, I would like to propose that a criticism section be added to the Hip Hop music page.

There are two Wikipedia articles that pertain to this subject. The first article is titled Misogyny_in_rap_music and the second article is titled Homophobia_in_hip_hop_culture. I am providing links to those articles below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny_in_rap_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia_in_hip_hop_culture

I believe a new criticism section is the appropriate place for these articles. Since these are entire articles, perhaps they could be added to the See Also section instead if not a separate new criticism section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiperson777 (talk • contribs)

  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:54, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 August 2018

Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The sentence "Herc created the blueprint for hip hop music and culture by building upon the Jamaican tradition of impromptu toasting, a spoken type of boastful poetry and speech over music" should be removed. Kool Herc himself denies this link (in the 1984 book Hip Hop), saying, "Jamaican toasting? Naw, naw. No connection there. I couldn't play reggae in the Bronx. People wouldn't accept it. The inspiration for rap is James Brown and the album Hustler's Convention".[1] Herc also suggests he was too young while in Jamaica to get into sound system parties: "I couldn't get in. Couldn't get in. I was ten, eleven years old,"[2] and that while in Jamaica, he was listening to James Brown: "I was listening to American music in Jamaica and my favorite artist was James Brown. That's who inspired me. A lot of the records I played were by James Brown."[3]

1. "Hip Hop: The Illustrated History of Break Dancing, Rap Music, and Graffiti", by Steven Hager, 1984, St Martin's Press, p. 45. 2. "Kool Herc". DJhistory.com. Archived from the original on June 1, 2015. Retrieved January 27, 2014. 3. "Davey D's Hip-Hop Corner". Retrieved December 20, 2005. 2601:406:5000:1B45:6CE1:6B3D:FD0E:6589 (talk) 06:02, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

  Not done Your quoted passages would suggest that Kool Herc still "created the blueprint" under the inspiration of James Brown. In my opinion, the sentence that you're proposing to remove is still factually correct. StrikerforceTalk 13:54, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Article is very long; history-oriented

Latest comment: 5 years ago6 comments6 people in discussion

There is a clear consensus to support the proposal to do a "move-rename of this page to "History of hip hop music" and linked creation of a new 'Hip hop music" article'.

Cunard (talk) 01:09, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This article is long and has a large focus on the history of hip-hop music. As articles are meant to be encyclopedic, this content is too dense and it may be worth looking into splitting some of it off into a new article (e.g. "Origins of hip hop music" or "History of hip hop music").

It is helpful to put yourself into the shoes of the average viewer. I would wager to guess that someone looking for an encyclopedic article on hip hop music 'might' not want to read 20,000 words on the intricate and detailed history of the genre. This article needs generalization.

Let's RfC on a possible future preparation and move-rename of this page to "History of hip hop music" and linked creation of a new "Hip hop music" article. This would take a while, of course. Let me know what you think. - Dmezh (talk) 06:13, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

I'd support such an idea. StrikerforceTalk 13:49, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Support article needs a split. — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  21:25, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Support - As an "average reader" (Brought in via RfC), it's an awful article in it's current state. You could almost take out a majority of the article as a split, and move into History of Hip Hop. I'd also mention, any article with a lede that long needs a good clip. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:29, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Support – around eighty percent of the article is dedicated to the genre's history, certainly enough to warrant a split. LifeofTau 07:39, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support -- I agree with the proposal and support it. 70.89.176.249 (talk) 22:57, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This Article Has Existential Problems

Latest comment: 5 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

In it's current form, the large majority of this article is unsourced theorizing, riffs, tangents, etc, that wouldn't be accepted in any other article of similar importance (and lets not minimize that; this is an important article. To allow it to exist in this condition is sad). Requesting suggestions on how to go about dealing with this mess without causing a bunch of butthurt, edit wars, etc since slash-and-burn editing is the only option I can see that would begin to bring this article up to Wikipedia policy standards. Musicology1 (talk) 16:28, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello, Musicology1 (talk · contribs) - I agree. Please read my proposal below. - Dmezh (talk) 06:26, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

I thought that this article was pretty informative and provided a better generalization of hip-hop music for me. I found new facts I hadn't known about before. I believe the article can be corrected and revised by providing more examples of the different type of rap and explaining them in detail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wpojim (talk • contribs) 21:10, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

New Hip Hop

Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

When Long Island Rapper Top Ninjacame on the rap scene it was all different. His style was like no other rapper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ci189215 (talk • contribs) 14:00, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

[1]

The key idea of this source was to inform readers that rap music is more than music, and we have to look at the other ways it can benefit us. The article explains that it can be a way for the black community to discuss the serious issues we face. I can use it for my source because it can serve as a counter-argument for anyone opposing rap music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wpojim (talk • contribs) 21:09, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ lpclibrary.idm.oclc.org/login?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebscohost.com%2Flogin.aspx%3Fdirect&db=a9h&AN=131688893&site=ehost-live.
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