Talk:Hip hop (culture)/Archive 1

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Please Do Not Editorialize

Please Do Editorialize the Wikipedia entry on Hip Hop with personal political or other opinions. This entry is supposed to be for basic historical facts not opinion. It is only appropriate to state facts on politics if those facts are part of the political opinion of established Hip Hop artiists who have made songs or public statements of political or social ideas and they are a part of the history. A separate entry might be called "The Politics of Hip Hop".

Still in dire need of attention

Looking at the 2 GA-related sections below (which I have, along with this, moved to the top in order to address the problem more urgently), created in 2007, let us note that this article is still in need of a major clean up. The suggested changes would benefit the article, and I would like to expand. The history section does not represent what is said in the main History of hip hop article - incidentally, the main history article also needs a clean up - so I suggest removing the chronological separations and focusing on the initial growth of hip-hop, with summaries of the four elements, followed by a short section on hip-hop's development until the present. None of the sections in this article need be long, but the article itself should represent (i.e. relay in far less detail) each main hip-hop related topic. Let us please get this in order, if not as per already suggested then in some other way, because at the moment it's quite a disgrace. Headbeater (talk) 17:44, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

GA

I don't like saying this, but I believe this article doesn't have a chance of becoming a GA as it is now. You should look at other articles and their GA reviews to see what is needed. Don't give up on it though. egde 16:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

GA failed

Not sure if the above comment is a review or not, so I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria. The article has failed at this time for several reasons. There are several "citation needed" tags, which are not allowed for GAs, as each statement needs an inline citation. My main reason for failing this article is that Hip Hop is a very large topic and the article needs to go into more detail. At this point there are are only a few sections of information, but the article could use a lot more expansion. Consider getting a peer review to help come up with ideas of what to add and how to improve the article. Once you have done these things, and looked over the criteria, consider renominating again. If you disagree with this review, then you can can seek an alternate review at Wikipedia:Good article review. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 18:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your very constructive comments. I'm pretty much away right now, but I hope to use your suggestions when I get back.-Robotam 13:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Latinos helped form hiphop

FACTS ON HIP HOP TERMINOLOGY

The following reflects newly discovered referenced facts on the term Hip Hop. This should be updated but people keep vandalising by reverting back to the old incorrect ideas about the therm "Hip Hop" Terminology

1) respectfully. the term Hip Hop was not coined in the 1970s and had been used to describe dancing before rap related culture was in existence.

The word "hip" was originally a black slang term dating back as far as 1904. It is a varient on "hep", meaning the same thing "informed". Other examples may be found in the future but the first known combination of the term Hip and Hop together to form the term "Hip Hop" is found in the lyrics to a song called "You Can't Sit Down by the pop group" The Dovells . The song charted on Billboard in 1963. One of the lyrics to the song was

"you gotta, slop bop, flip flop, hip hop, all around"

a) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNZPUxKPsoM

b) http://www.justsomelyrics.com/657665/The-Dovells-You-Can't-Sit-Down-Lyrics

The term also appears in 1968 in an advertisement for Air India for example the ad appears on the back of a tour book to Ravi Shankar's "Festival of India". The headline in large print reads "The Hip Hop" and is used to describe a flight to India.

2) Usage is not the same thing as "coining" a term. The term was coined at least as far back as 1963 as is proved above.

Another problem with the old version of Hip Hop history that users keep reverting to is that that version claims Keith Cowboy coined the term. But Afrika Bambaataa and the Universal Zulu nation clearly states the term is first used to describe rap music and culture by Lovebug Starski not Keith Cowboy. This Zulu nation reference also does not say that he "coined" the term just that he started calling it that. Here is the evidence from the Zulu nation website: http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:nmWYaxJvswsJ:www.zulunation.com/hip_hop_history_2.htm+%22keith+cowboy%22+%22hip+hop%22+military&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3 Keith Cowboy does get credit for being the person who first started using it in stage performances and making it stick.

Central16 (talk) 19:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Photoshopped

It's pretty obvious that the picture of the "aerial freeze" on the streets of Paris is photoshopped. Someone ought to replace it, because it looks pretty stupid.

Fifth Element

I think this page should include at least a mention of beatboxing, the so-called "fifth element" of hip hop. Your thoughts?

It would be good to mention it, as part of hip hop music (and maybe not as the "fifth element".) Wipe 03:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard of beatboxing being referred to as a fifth element of hip-hop; as such, I've only seen it classified as part of MCing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.36.9.69 (talk) 01:58, 2 January 2007 (UTC).

I've always known the fifth element to be knowledge, as in knowledge of the history of the culture and all its other elements.--CycloneArts (talk) 15:38, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Redirect or disambig

OK, right now this page has about 1000 links coming into it (not counting User and Talk pages). A few months ago (Jan-2006) Hip hop, which was a redirect to Hip hop culture, got turned into a disambiguation page[1] -- but no one updated any of the links to this page. 1000 links is far too many to disambiguate by hand (and new ones are constantly being added) so I suggest this page either be changed back into the redirect, or expanded into an article with sections that briefly cover each area and "Main article" links (which is actually what Hip hop culture already appears to be). Ewlyahoocom 04:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. I say we move hip hop to hip hop (disambiguation) and make hip hop redirect to hip hop culture. Hip hop (disambiguation) will thus become a simple list of what hip hop can refer to while hip hop culture (and hip hop redirecting to it) will explain the full cultural phenomenon and summaries of its many elements, like you say. Wintran 13:38, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

There are also many links refering to Hip-hop music. Most of these come from album pages, specifically the album infobox. Maybe a bot could quickly convert those hip-hop music? Gflores^Talk 05:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Convert them to hip hop music, you mean?--Urthogie 09:14, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

By far, the most common meaning of "Hip hop" is hip hop music - if we were going to redirect that would be the place. 1000 links can be done by hand (well I am doing it robot assisted now). We did 5000 links to American by hand. The number of incoming links should not be a consideration. But anyway, I do support a mini article being written here, encapsulating the important terms. This really isn't a dab page, since all the entries are about the same thing.--Commander Keane 10:58, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Good points. The thing is, hip hop music is part of hip hop culture.--Urthogie 11:56, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I think this page should redirect to hip hop music, but I agree with Commander Keane that this page should have/be a mini article Ted87 22:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

what we should do

People call hip hop music "hip hop". It should be moved to hip hop (music), and hip hop culture should just be "hip hop".--Urthogie 18:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, these days the concept of hip hop culture takes a backseat to the actual hip-hop music. Nobody grafs anymore, people don't competition break, and the DJ culture is completely removed from the essence of hip-hop. Hip-hop's primary driving force is its music. The culture is the archaic, historical counterpart to the music that is arguably no longer relevant. MOD 16:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I still think we should call hip hop music hip hop (music), as thats what people call it. You have a point about culture, but what about that move?--Urthogie 17:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree that the other aspects of hip hop culture are disappearing. It's true that hip hop's primary driving force has always been music, so it's definitely a central element of hip hop. However, from the beginning until now its practicioners have always been saying that "hip hop is more than just music", and many believe that this concept is the heart of hip hop. The commercialization of hip hop has concentrated on the music, which has given it much attention in the media, but this doesn't mean that other elements are practiced any less just because they're not seen in the news. For example, I believe that breaking and hip hop dances in general are more active and evolving than ever, only becoming more and more international with many competitions and events spread around the world today.

I agree with Urthogie that hip hop music should be moved to hip hop (music) (maybe this should be discussed at Talk:hip hop music as well?) but I'm not sure about the proposal of moving hip hop culture to hip hop. Currently, I'm 50/50 for performing the move or keeping it the way it is. However, I'm against redirecting hip hop to hip hop music for the reasons explained above.

Wintran 19:13,604211 May 2006 (UTC)

Its "practitioners?" As in the delirious and aging KRS-ONE? Who else? Young Jeezy, who excuses his lack of ability to rap as a movement? Don't get it twisted, rap has always been about music. Breaking and hip-hop dances are GONE. The most you see is some video on MTV. They're not an integral part anymore, and neither are the supposed nine pillars or so of hip-hop. Hip-hop is about music, hip-hop culture is secondary, that's it. Would rock music take a backseat to political activism and social trends? I don't think so. MOD 11:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

None of this is true, by the way. Breakdancing as an active practice and competitive activity is alive and very well. --FuriousFreddy 05:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I was the one to originally have hip hop culture moved from this namespace to its current one, so that this would be a disambiguation page. Editors and readers ambiguously use "hip-hop" to define both the culture and the music, and the purpose of a disambiguation page is to (a) allow for users to find the correct page they are looking for and (b) allowed editors to realize that linking to just "hip-hop" won't work. No article needs to be moved anyplace ("Hip hop (music)" makes less sense than "hip hop music", especially since Wikipedia has "soul music" and "rock music", not "soul (music)" and "rock (music)"). --FuriousFreddy 05:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

politics and culture

First off I agree this should be a redirect to "hiphop culture. Second hiphop is not a political movement, even if some members have political views etc. So, i replaced "political" by "cultural" and added a link to hiphop culture page.

On a side note: you need a source on the "global media conglomerates" statement.(who are those guys anyway?)

-non-member of wikiland.august 30 2006, 11:25pm

Articles:
Hip-Hop and Worship: Effects on the Future of the Church

To B-Boy Or Not To B-Boy This is an article from the German hip-hop mag "MZEE" (July/august '93) by Kenny "Ken Swift" Gabbert and Jorge "Fabel" Pabon of the Rock Steady Crew with assistance from Richie "Crazy Legs" Colon and Steve "Mr. Wiggles". (locate orig of MZEE article copied at: [2] )-Robotam 15:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Legacy of Hip Hop/"Paradox that hip-hop artists fail to face" paragraph

Without even getting into whether or not I agree with it, this paragraph may lean a little to far towards full-blown opinion. Is there any consensus on whether or not it belongs in this article? -Robotam 18:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

• I agree, this paragraph is definitely not NPOV. Theroachman 23:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I edited this to try to clean up and create a more neutral POV for this article. I respect everyone's writing and opinions (notwithstanding the vandals), but this is not an opinion piece. I did try to get the general POV's that were discussed into the article, however. -Robotam 16:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

chinese version

i've linked to a Chinese version, but that is in reality a translation-in-progress of the Hip hop culture article.

good work; consider creating an account and/or signing your comments (you can sign your name on any page by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~~~~) so we'll know it is you! thanx,-Robotam 16:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Video Links

The links to various video websites present various copyright and WP issues, such as spurious links. See WP:EL for a full discussion. thanks! -Robotam 14:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Latinos in Hip Hop

Not sure why anyone would want to dispute this, but we are all ears.-Robotam 14:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

The Hip Hop page has been vandalized.64.219.79.212 01:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed. I reverted back to the page before the user with the IP 81.231.149.62 vandalized it. --esanchez, Camp Lazlo fan! 01:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup/Footnotes

OK, I did some cleanup and added some secondary refs, although i cannot do footnotes right now. We do need to wikify this article in earnest, footnotes and all.-Robotam 15:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

redunancy

It seems reaonable to say we're just confusing ourselves and others by having hip hop, hip hop culture, and hip hop music. All there is hip hop culture and the music that came from that culture. Having a third hip hop page doesn't make sense. Let's redirect to a disambiguation that explains this.--Urthogie 17:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I saw your comments above, and all are valid. I would support merging the three into one article, "Hip Hop," with "culture" and "music" shortened into sub-sections added to "history" and "legacy," as long as the effort is made to cite. I think that would go a long way towards FA status, based on the interest that has been generated in Hip Hop by cleaning it up and editing it in a more serious, scholarly manner. It still needs lots of work, but it is a start.-Robotam 18:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hip Hop is a Culture

"Rap is something we do. Hip hop is something we live!" KRS-One

Rap is not hip hop and cannot be uses as a synonym.
Hip Hop is not a musical genre, it is a culture.
Hip Hop is not a style of dance
Jorelnetworks 17:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Just because you say its one thing doesn't mean it isn't also another. The word hip-hop is both the name of the culture and a genre of music, and when you are referring to it as a music genre then it is synonymous with rap, except for the few occasions when a song is considered hip-hop but does not involve rapping.66.167.206.193 01:52, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The 4 elements of Hip Hop (Original)

MC'n: Rapping
B-Boy'n :Breakdancing
Grafitti :Spray can art
DJ'n :Turntablist, music using 2 phonograph turntables, mixing & scratching
Jorelnetworks 17:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Hip Hop/Hip Hop Music

Why is there an article for Hip Hop (this article) and one for Hip hop music? Maybe I'm just a white metal head but i don't really see the difference....? Violask81976 01:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Hip hop is a cultural movement that includes music, dance, visual art, and other stuff. Tlogmer ( talk / contributions ) 04:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

its also a genre of music which is by far the most popular definition

MERGE

I also nominated Hip hop and religion, History of hip hop music, Hip hop culture, and Hip Hop for merging with this article because, logically, they should all be contained in this article, which I think should simply be called Hip Hop Cosprings 20:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Even though valid arguments have been made for keeping the various articles separate, any MERGER would more appropriately be placed under the umbrella of Hip Hop, as opposed to one facet of it, Hip Hop music.-Robotam 20:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous- are "jazz" and "jazz music" different things? More importantly, this article weak because there is no information which pertains to "hip hop" and not "hip hop music" MERGE Cosprings

Check out punk. They made it a disambiguation page that links to both punk rock as a music genre and an article on the punk subculture, as well as other punk related articles (punk fashion and so on). In my opinion, that's the most elegant solution when the topic is surrounded by a strong subculture, as it avoids confusion and stepping on any toes. - Wintran ^(talk) 23:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

That may be true, except there is no group of people who are called 'hip-hops'. The point is, this article mostly talks about music, a bit of about the 4 cultural elements, but these are all on the hip-hop music article, which i agree should be called simply 'hip hop'. I still think a merge would forward the study of hip-hop here. Other people have said the same above, tooCosprings 00:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

There are "hip-hoppers" and "B-Boys." I'm not opposed to merging (under the circumstances I discussed above some time ago), but Wintran's point is valid--to cover the culture in earnest, the weaker articles should really be strengthened instead of merged.-Robotam 03:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I don't think there's any controversy over whether there actually is a hip hop subculture or not. There are major hip hop dance events around the world, there are markets, brands and stores that only sell hip hop cloths. There are even specific ways of talking and a body language that's become associated with hip hop. There are hip hoppers, b-boys/breakers, graffers/graffitists, rappers/MC:s and DJ:s, all associated with the hip hop subculture.

I'm still in favor of making hip hop a disambiguation page (see hip hop (disambiguation)), leading to both hip hop music and hip hop culture (maybe move to hip hop subculture). Let people link to hip hop music if they're referring to the music, and to hip hop culture if they refer to the whole subculture. Let the four elements be explained in hip hop culture and let hip hop music focus at the music genre. That's a very clear solution to me.

If you really must have hip hop redirect directly to hip hop music, then at least keep hip hop culture as a separate article and provide distinct links from hip hop music to it. - Wintran ^(talk) 16:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to merge it because the hip hop music article has a great section on the 4 elements of hip hop which says better what is also here. Also, note that the other aspects of hip hop (beatboxing, breaking etc) all have their own pages

Power is not mentioned in the articles

I'm sorry to see this article didn't make it into GA status. I think it's pretty good so far. However, it's missing something significant, several articles in this series are. Beef is not mentioned, but it's a significant part of hip hop music culture (yeah, I know, I just added another layer to the "culture versus music" debate, sorry). Also, I'm a bit old school in my musical taste, and if you listen to old Sugar Hill Records music, you'll often hear mention of "who's on the Radio." This, I think, is a reference to power through music (Hey, looks who's on the radio - Remember Power 99 in the 1980s? - why was it called "Power"?). Usually, power through money from music. Let's be fair and also mention power through money from drugs. There's enough lyrical boasting on all of these topics to provide citations, I think. QuickieWiki 01:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Status

Various critiques of the article have been addressed, to the point where, IMO, this is clearly not a "stub" or "start" article.

disambiguation

PLEASE make a disambiguation page. There are so many aspects of hip hop it is getting hard to navigate through them all.66.167.206.193 01:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

See Hip hop (disambiguation).-Robotam 02:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I second that.

The problem as I see it:
The current article has the same function as hip hop culture, and is hard to navigate if you're looking for hip hop music, hip hop dance or another specific aspect of hip hop and not a summary of the culture as a whole.

Proposed solution:

• Merge the content of this article with hip hop culture.
• Redirect this article to hip hop (disambiguation).

What are the objections? - Wintran ^(talk) 05:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

What aspects of hip hop aren't cultural? I would move all the hip hop culture stuff to here and leave a redirect from that page. This page I would structure in summary style of all the different aspects of hip hop culture (or simply hip hop, however you want to phrase it)--dance, music, etc. My proposed structure:

• Hip hop music
  • Beatboxing
• Hip hop dancing
• Hip hop art (incl. graffiti art)
• Other aspects of hip hop culture

Calliopejen1 06:10, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

• I like how the disambiguation page is now, but I'd still like to merge Hip hop Culture, Hip hop Music and Hip hop because they encompass the same things.Cosprings 02:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Calliopejen1 touches on a good point. IMO, if merger is necessary, it would have to be merged into the topic "Hip-Hop." anything else is (clearly) by definition a subset of Hip hop, and would be improper as a header. As it stands, if you do try to merge all of these articles into one big one, I am fairly certain that the resulting huge article will result in demands to be broken up into smaller articles, and we will be back to where we are now. I note that while the current Hip Hop Music article is long, it is all over the place, with serious WP:NPOV and WP:CITE issues. The article was actually demoted from featured article status, and doesn't at all resemble the article that was originally featured on the main page.-Robotam 15:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Black Music

I tried to add a link to Black Music on my page, but I found that the Black Music page redirects to Hip Hop Music, which is wrong. Black Music starts from Slaves songs, through Spirituals, Blues and R & B, and Hip Hop is only the end of a long chain. I can write that page myself, but it will take a long time, and meanwhile I ask how to remove the redirection. --Gideonrv 08:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

re: Planet Rock

As great of a song as 'planet rock' is, it is more or less a re-mix of 'trans-europe express' by kraftwerk. I think kraftwerk should be mentioned as their use of electronics, etc greatly influenced hip hop. Denverjsmith 23:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)denverjsmith 7/5/07

Is this a joke? Somebody replaced the page wit some craziness

Request for Comment: Merger of Hip Hop Articles

This is a dispute about whether Hip hop music, Hip hop culture, and various other Hip hop-related articles should be merged into one article. --Robotam 14:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

Comments

It does not matter whether an editor has contributed or not, any Wikipedian can vote and express their opinion on the following:

• Merge hip hop into hip hop music and keep hip hop culture separate.
• Keep all three articles are kept.
• Merge all all are merged into one.

Escaper2007 17:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC) Please note that since starting this vote, my username has changed to: User:Escaper27 because of password problems. I will not be voting in this name but would like to add some comments below. Thanks. Escaper27 11:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

So basically whats going to happen is the hip hop article is being deleted?Cosprings 16:06, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The current text of Hip hop will likely be moved to the page for Hip hop music. The majority of the current text for Hip hop music belongs in Hip hop culture, once it is edited for NPOV and verifiability. Hip hop will then become a disambig page with a short description and links.-Robotam 17:50, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

so the bigger article is going to be Hip hop culture?!?! how can you not see THAT is why its wrong!Cosprings 06:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Vote here

• Merge hip hop (this article) into hip hop music: 1) Editors will naturally come to hip hop and start editing assuming it's soley about music. 2) Hip hop music is a former featured article and has therefore been scrutinised widely 3) Hip hop music is better laid out and more detailed. Escaper2007 16:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge all all 3 articles into hip hop music and rename article simply Hip hop. Regardless of your opinion of whether or not hip hop is only a culture or only a music, having them consolidated is good for the article and not at all innacurate. It's not "various" articles-it's only hip hop, hip hop music and hip hop culture. Cosprings 19:57, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge (disambiguation). I believe in two articles with real content: hip hop music and hip hop culture. Hip hop as both a music genre and a subculture phenomenon is too broad to be covered by a single article and would soon need to be divided into sub articles anyway, and to keep hip hop as a third article with a summary of the two other articles would only lead to duplication. This is why I vote merge. However, I included "(disambiguation)" as I feel that hip hop should be redirected to hip hop (disambiguation) (as it was in this version) rather than to hip hop music directly. This is to avoid controversies and confusion, such as people adding in-depth cultural facts to the hip hop music article. See Punk for a real working example of the solution I'm proposing. - Wintran ^(talk) 20:30, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

What would you have in a hip hop culture page? everything on it right now is also on the hip hop music page! Breakdancing, graffiti, hip hop Dance and hip hop fashion all have their own pages, and that's most of non-musical hip hop cultureCosprings 20:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's true. What I would like to do is to remove the text on the cultural elements from hip hop music and add them to hip hop culture. Hip hop music could instead have a single section called hip hop culture or something like that, which links to hip hop culture as the main article. Hip hop culture would then consist of a summary of the various elements and with more in-depth information and history on how the culture as a whole evolved, without going into too much detail with any specific element, including the music, as these have their own in-depth articles. - Wintran ^(talk) 22:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

My point in all of this is that our goal should be simplicity and common sense. If some of the aspects of hip hop culture include hip hop music, then it is very confusing to have separate pages, especially when they could all easily fit on the same page. I hope everyone reading this exchange sees that too.Cosprings 19:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

• Merge (disambiguation), for all reasons explained above by Wintran.
  *Comment: There seems to be some ongoing confusion about the definition of "hip hop" that has caused not only this ongoing debate about page merger/separation, but has led to Hip Hop music, a former Featured Article, being knocked back down to B-class. I have two observations that may help:

(1)Hip hop is a culture, or subculture if you like. This is not an opinion. When the term "hip hop music" is used, it refers to THE MUSIC ASSOCIATED WITH THE CULTURE, which includes rap music.

(2)Stating "Hip hop music [is] also known as rap music is confusing at best, factually incorrect at worst. As popular as it is, Rap is one segment of music associated with Hip hop culture (true, the one by which it is usually characterized), but it is incorrect to assume or state that rap is the entirety of Hip hop music.-Robotam 14:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• Merge and redirect. The way I read Wintran's suggestion is to have a Hip hop article which is a disambig to Hip hop music and Hip hop culture. I think that's almost the right thing; however, because most hits to hip hop are likely looking for music, I would do it this way:

Hip hop should be merged into Hip hop music and Hip hop culture, and then should redirect to Hip hop music

Hip hop music covers the music, and has a disambig at top pointing to Hip hop (disambiguation) and to Hip hop culture

Hip hop culture covers other cultural aspects (and, briefly, music)

Note that there already exist Hip hop dance, Hip hop fashion, and Hip hop production. these can be linked appropriately from within the music and culture articles.

The fact that the culture includes the music doesn't mean we shouldn't have two articles. Many, many wikipedia articles have a brief summary of a more detailed topic which is covered in depth on another page. Hip hop culture and hip hop music deserve separate articles.

Finally, the "hip hop is not rap" argument is sort of useless without a reliable source and some examples. The OED and the American Heritage dictionary both say that hip hop culture includes rap music (they do not say "hip hop music, of which rap is one form). I think the rap--hip hop split is one we will have to address, since those two artices are extremely repetitive. bikeable (talk) 18:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Very valid points, Bikeable. I concur with just about all you said; OED does state that Hip contains the "element" of rap. However, even though there is no entry for "Hip hop music" in OED, in the footnotes for "Hip hop," you find:

1984 S. HAGER Hip Hop 109/2 Hip hop:funky music suitable [emphasis added] for rapping; a collective term used to describe rap/graffiti/breaking/scratchin'.[3]

I can cite sources, but I don't want to direct too much attention away from the present questions. Again, good points.--Robotam 19:27, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Any hip hop culture article is going to be a bad article, because half of the cultural elements of hip hop include music (rapping, production). SIMPLICITY!!!! Why are you people wasting time arguing semantics like hip hop vs rap when the easiest thing, best for the site and anyone who wants info about hip hop, is to merge them all together into one easy to navigate page?!?!?!?Cosprings 17:46, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I honestly don't see a problem here. Half of the article on China is about history, but we still have a separate article on History of China that goes into more depth. It's not unnecessarily complicated to have a more detailed article on a subtopic. bikeable (talk) 02:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

• KEEP Hip hop culture. The issue is not whether you believe hip hop is or has a culture, there is more than enough information regarding hip hop culture, apart from or with music, that there should be two articles, rather than one monster article. Hyacinth 19:30, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Then what I think your choice is 'Merge'Cosprings 16:06, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this is intended be a vote for a merge. Pls clarify Escaper27 11:05, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• Merge (disambiguation). Hip Hop and Hip Hop culture should be merged into Hip Hop music. I looked for a few examples for guidance and saw that Heavy Metal music and Gothic Rock have only one page each, even though there are “cultures” based on these two musical styles as well. As I see it, the term hip hop refers first and foremost to music, and "hip hop culture" doesn't really exist independently of hip hop music. Rhode Island Red 02:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
  • According to your description, I think your vote is Merge all. - Wintran ^(talk) 02:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for you comment, Rhode Island Red. You may want to examine Goth subculture, which links directly from Gothic Rock, and Metalhead which links from Heavy Metal.-Robotam 13:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Is this consensus? I think what we've agreed is to delete the hip hop article and work on improving the hip hop culture articleCosprings 23:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

As it stands now, consensus is for Merge (disambiguation). That should mean (1)merger of verifiable cultural text into hip hop culture; (2)merger of verifiable music/music history text into hip hop music; and (3)a Hip hop (disambiguation) page. Therefore, a majority of the salvageable text that is currently at hip hop music would be moved to hip hop culture. Most text from Hip Hop will be moved to Hip hop music, and the disambig page will be expanded. Questions/Comments?-Robotam 13:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Robotam, I'm not sure that is the case. Some people apparently misunderstood the shorthand vote summaries (in bold), so we cannot judge the votes based on these. When reading the descriptions behind each person's vote, I seem to find two votes on each alternative (merge (disambiguation) included separately), except the original keep alternative which has no votes. Please double check. If separating the two major questions this voting deals with (1: if hip hop culture and hip hop music should be merged, and 2: what to do with hip hop), there does seem to be a majority of votes (four against two) for keeping hip hop culture and hip hop music separate, and hip hop either redirects to a disambiguation page or directly to hip hop music (like Cosprings says, its content is deleted). I don't know how to continue from here. Maybe a compromise for now would be to keep the articles separate but redirect hip hop directly to hip hop music as proposed by user bikeable above? Or should we find another way to reach consensus, maybe list all arguments for and against the different alternatives, and then continue a normal discussion from there? Or should we start a new voting, or even two (one for each question at hand), that defines the alternatives more clearly and invite many more neutral people from other parts of Wikipedia to vote as well? I honestly don't know, but I guess we could always change things later if we change our mind. - Wintran ^(talk) 01:09, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you may be misunderstanding me since you restated what i said (there does seem to be a majority of votes (four against two) for keeping hip hop culture and hip hop music separate, and hip hop either redirects to a disambiguation page or directly to hip hop music). As far as the CONTENT of Hip hop, it is not a matter of deletion; that would appropriately be merged into hip hop music, because that is what it pertains to, just as the present content of Hip hop music is more appropriately place in Hip hop culture.-Robotam 16:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, it's more about merging than deleting, and I might have misunderstood you on the other part. I merely wanted to point out that disambiguation of hip hop doesn't seem to be the result of the voting, as there are as many votes for redirecting hip hop directly to hip hop music. It's apparent that the choice is between those two alternatives, but which one should we choose? Redirect hip hop to hip hop (disambiguation) or redirect it directly to hip hop music? - Wintran ^(talk) 17:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Good point. As long as the previously discussed is met, it is perfectly appropriate to redirecting hip hop to hip hop (disambiguation), IMO.-Robotam 17:15, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I think all you need to do is delete the hip hop article, or redirect to hip hop music from there. Cosprings 15:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

• KEEP Please don't merge. Hip hop music is part of Hip hop culture. If I was looking for info on graffiti artists or hip hop fashions I would not have thought to look under music. CyntWorkStuff 05:53, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Hip hop is now disambiguation

Cosprings redirected hip hop to the disambiguation page, and I think this was the right thing to do because we need more action. The old content can be found here and it should be merged with hip hop culture as soon as possible.

How about we close the vote and keep it like this for a while and see how it works? If it feels wrong we can always change it, and those who don't agree, please read the voting discussions above and write your opinion here. - Wintran ^(talk) 08:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

• Merge first, then redirect. --Russ (talk) 14:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Done.-Robotam 15:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC) Appropriate portions of Hip Hop now merged to Hip Hop Music. The relevant material from Hip Hop and from the former Hip Hop Music article still need to be transferred to Hip Hop Culture.-Robotam 15:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I still think this is totally stupid-just make ONE page called hip hop, and include everything in the culture and music pages. Fashion, dance, graffiti, etc, still have thier own pages. Why complicate things so information is redundant?Cosprings

The thing is that regardless of what things are called we clearly have two major topics that we need to deal with. One is hip hop music and another is the hip hop subculture. Sometimes people want to read only about the music (there are many today who only listen to hip hop music without participating in any other hip hop element), and sometimes people only want to read and link to the subculture as a whole, without having to dig too deeply into the music.

Though both topics often use the same name (hip hop for short), I see it very practical to have two articles, hip hop music and hip hop culture, and this works very well in Wikipedia and is common practice for other major topics. I don't understand why you think this is totally stupid. - Wintran ^(talk) 22:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

There have been no votes or comments for a while; are there any remaining objections to redirecting this page to disambiguation as was reached by consensus above?-RoBoTam^ice 13:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a consensus above, but there can be both, as is also noted above. Redirecting this to the disambiguation page gets the dab page moved to the plain title (see WP:MDP and WP:DAB). This can, rather than being a dab page, be a parent article describing both the music and the culture, with daughter articles at Hip hop music and Hip hop culture. I think that is far better than having a plain dab page at this title. Dekimasuよ! 14:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Good point. I believe that was the original setup anyway, but for some reason that setup was offensive to some editors. Anyone else?-RoBoTam^ice 17:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Works for me, as long as the article has a clear purpose, as my only worry is that it will grow into a duplicate of hip hop culture. Another option is that we simply make this page the main hip hop page containing a summary of all hip hop elements and describing the culture, and redirect hip hop culture here. - Wintran ^(talk) 13:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it would be a bad thing to move the backbone of Hip hop culture here, either. The description of the music doesn't need to be in-depth on this page... it just needs to be discussed briefly with a prominent mention of where the main article is, probably in the same area as "rapping" on the Hip hop culture page. Dekimasuよ! 03:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused by the reinstitution of the redirect given the recent discussion here. In the same way that other articles, when they become too large, have a parent article and daughter articles, this can have a parent article for basic information and daughter articles for more in-depth information. Disambiguation pages are useful when dealing with unrelated topics, but these hip hop topics are all closely related. There's no way we would choose to have China be a disambiguation page listing articles about China, rather than a parent article for the various China articles. Dekimasuよ! 03:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

the elements of hip-hop

Irad this artical and saw the four elements of hip-hop and I thought to my self that's not right. Later it occured t me that graffitti had replaced beat boxing. Beat boxing is one of the four elements and graffitti is not. Graffitti is not an element of hip-hop because graffitti has been around before hip-hop was created. and graffittican be for many different things not jut tagging i.e political, other music genres, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christo1992 (talk • contribs) 17:58, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

Actually graffitti is a part of hip hop. Just because it was around before hip hop doesn't mean anything. Technically, rap was around before hip hop if you consider the old style of country music which was actually talking and rhyming.68.164.85.197 (talk) 04:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

What happened to the infobox at the top? Thundermaster367 13:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure there was one on this article, but there is on hip hop music Escaper27 13:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

?

You Guys dont really know what hip hop is, Hip hop was when Rap & R&B started coliding which destroyed Rap and R&B, Hip Hop is not a real Genre Mcanmoocanu 15:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Hip Hop Is Not Dead Movement

Theres a new movement being started in response to the 'hip hop is dead' theories called the Hip Hop Is Not Dead Movement. When is the 'right time' for it to have its own wiki article and not be considered promotion of a campaign? Is there a certain benchmark of popularity it must reach? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CycloneArts (talk • contribs) 15:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

When it passes WP:N, that is, the group is covered by several independent and reliable sources. hateless 19:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Wrong

This whole fucking article is wrong, you want to know why, Rap and Hip Hop is not the same thing dammit, people do not know that because their to busy thinkin about this new shit, Rap was destroyed because of Hip Hop which started in early 1990s with the New Jack Swing, and therefore it continued with people like Chris Brown, Usher, SWV, TLC, T-Pain, Ciara, Jazzy Pha, and Omarion those are people who are Hip Hop, people like Snoop Dogg, Dr. Dre, Xzibit, DJ Quik, Eric B. and Rakim, Pete Rock, CL Smooth, Eminem, E-40, Run DMC, LL Cool J and Beastie Boys are not hip hop there are Rap, get it. Mcanmoocanu 12:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Hola, es peirs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.139.228.82 (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

No, that's your opinion. Rap was being called hip hop in the 80s and 90s way before R&B type hip hop (Usher, Chris Brown etc) became popular. As to whether R&B type hip hop destroyed actual rap, thats another subject, but it certainly is getting more attention68.164.85.197 (talk) 04:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Tone needs cleanup

The article currently reads less like an encyclopedia article and more like something you'd pass out in a pamphlet at a breaking competition. There's a good bit of biased/POV writing, weasel words, and a lack of a cohesive tone. This page should essentially serve as a brief introduction to hip hop culture and hip hop music. Truth be told, do we even need this to be an article? Wouldn't it be more effective as a disambiguation page as it originally was? --FuriousFreddy (talk) 22:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

As I've said below, I made many changes today (the whole article was in a pretty bad condition, with a great number of grammar and spelling mistakes and inconsistencies, far too much subjective, uncited rhetoric and speculation, and quite a few structural problems). But this topic (Hip hop) is entirely necessary, and the article most probably receives alot of attention; however many mistakes are made in the editing process, we just have to make sure we keep on top of everything. As for why it's necessary.. I think there's been rather prolonged discussion on this above.Headbeater (talk) 17:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

delete this paragraph

"Hip Hop is a way of life and to most it can be credited to be the single most important thing in there life. Hip Hop is growing fast with a social network that expands all over the world, as shown in this class. "Paradoxically, or maybe not, hip-hop is at once the fastest spreading and most local pop music in the world." http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0219,christgau,34334,22.html Hip Hop has also given the youth culture a voice. Rappers like Subliminal, an Israeli rapper, gives the youth encouragement. "We need something that will encourage us. He sings that there's still hope," she said. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-11-06-hiphop-usat_x.htm"

what is this crap? -134.84.102.237 (talk) 08:27, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. I made many changes today; the whole article was in a pretty bad condition, with a great number of grammar and spelling mistakes and inconsistencies, far too much subjective, uncited rhetoric and speculation, and quite a few structural problems (e.g. paragraphs jumping around, making little sense). I'm going to be keeping close watch on this page from now on... Headbeater (talk) 17:10, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

H.I.P. H.O.P. french tv show, the very first entirely hip-hop tv show in the world

First, please excuse my bad english, i'm french !

I've tried to add some informations about the french tv show H.I.P. H.O.P., who have been reverted.

So,it's up to you to draw your own conclusions here :

I think it's impossible to avoid speaking about this tv show in a hip hop history article, because it's the first entirely hip hop tv show in the world (so before american hip hop tv shows). The announcer, Sidney, (and also the tv show conceptor) did not speak but do rap to present all the show (possible to see on share video web site Dailymotion).

How not to mention this world history fact ?

In added, Sidney was the first black announcer in the french tv history.

What a very hip-hop symbol ! It was one of the first time in the world, maybe the first, that hip-hop made the proof it could change society...

Anyway, i was not going so far, here is what i've sent :

"In 1984 was created in France the first hip hop tv show in the world (so before american hip hop tv shows), named H.I.P. H.O.P. by Sidney, who became by the fact the first black announcer in french tv history, a hip hop symbol."

In added, by the fact with the tv show, Sidney is the first french famous rap singer, not Dee Nasty, as said on some of english wikipedia articles.

Dee Nasty made the first french rap album, in the end of 1984, but nobody heard about it at this moment, it takes for him many years before becoming more famous. Sidney made before him the first french rap single, and immediatly famous by the tv show.

It's important to say that all officials french medias say exactly the same thing, without any contradictions.

Here are links, to help to think about it :

• About H.I.P. H.O.P. and Sidney on Universal Music France official web site
• About H.I.P. H.O.P. and Sidney on MCM TV official web site
• About H.I.P. H.O.P. and Sidney on a french hip-hop history resume, from "Festival l'Original 84-04"

Thanks

N.B. : the show had guests such as Sugarhill Gang, Kurtis Blow, Afrika Bambaataa, Herbie Hancock, The Breaks, The Tribe, The Art Of Noise, The Rock Steady Crew, Futura 2000, and many more. Www.why (talk) 10:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Hi. Can I hear some arguments as to why there should be both a Hip hop culture article and a Hip hop article? I can't think of any. Propose merging Hip hop culture into Hip hop, pending good arguments why we shouldn't. 86.44.27.243 (talk) 22:38, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

...or Hip hop into Hip hop culture, may even be better. Main point is that I can't see a reason for two articles. 86.44.27.243 (talk) 01:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Support

• Hip-hop by definition is the culture, which includes turntablism and MCing, the two elements that compose rap music. These articles should clearly be merged.--Cadentsoul (talk) 06:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

• I concur that a merger would a good idea. Taking the two articles and putting them together would also create an impetus for large-scale clean-up (and plenty of information/sources to work from) that could result in a much more polished article. Tiger Khan (talk) 14:40, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support as maker of the initial proposal. 86.44.17.205 (talk) 23:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• Hip hop culture should be merged and redirected here. This article is forking the same content from hip hop culture (like history and social impact). It's utterly unnecessary to have two pages on the same thing. Spellcast (talk) 08:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
  • the "same content" is forked because an editor copied and pasted that "same content" from hip hop culture just prior to merge being re-suggested. However, the article, as previously decided, serves its purpose as a gateway to music, culture, and other aspects related to hip hop, similar to Folk Music. While cutting and pasting large swaths of the article may have been "clearly," and "utterly" unnecessary, the consensus and rationale for the article tree was not. -RoBoTam^ice 19:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Without intending to badger you, I'm completely failing to see why you think hip hop culture is merely an element of hip hop, such as music, fashion or slang, when it is in fact the thing itself, encompassing all elements. 86.44.25.60 (talk) 15:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, not received as badgering at all. The question doesn't reflect my opinion at all, and is a misunderstanding (IMO) of the reason consensus was reached regarding Hip hop being used as a parent article. In fact, during the original discussion in 2007, I sided with redirecting Hip Hop to a disambiguation page; however, as Dekimasu correctly (IMO) pointed out,

In the same way that other articles, when they become too large, have a parent article and daughter articles, this can have a parent article for basic information and daughter articles for more in-depth information. Disambiguation pages are useful when dealing with unrelated topics, but these hip hop topics are all closely related. There's no way we would choose to have China be a disambiguation page listing articles about China, rather than a parent article for the various China articles.

The close relation of the hip hop topics (which all deserve in-depth discussion) is the very reason that Hip hop is a parent article rather than a DAB page, and I think we all can agree that hip hop culture requires its own page for discussion. -RoBoTam^ice 15:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, after reading past discussions on this, I believe the best thing to do is redirect Hip hop to Hip hop (disambiguation). The Punk page is a good example of how to handle this. We both agree that the hip hop page should be a gateway to culture, music, fashion etc. The question is whether it should be an article or disambiguation page. A disambiguation page is better because if it's an article, you have to unnecessarily summarise information that exists elsewhere. As for the China example, that's not a good comparison because hip hop has nowhere near as much topics as China. Spellcast (talk) 09:04, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• Support.--Darknus823 (talk) 02:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose

• (copied from below) Hip hop serves as a parent article rather than a disambiguation page. The consensus goal was to have Hip Hop be a gatekeeper to the various related articles on hip hop (culture, music, fashion, dance, etc), with a short, concise discussion of various subjects wikilinking to the more in-depth discussions. This is by no means uncommon, by the way; a great, closely-related example would be Punk Rock, which is a FA-status article. The Hip Hop article is currently in disarray because someone copied and pasted large sections of opinion pieces and text from other articles into this one. Cleaning this up would actually be a great help. -RoBoTam^ice 14:29, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and the point is that one Hip hop/Hip hop culture article is the natural parent article to the music, fashion, dance, etc articles. The only confusion is that "hip hop" is also now a synonym for the music. We already deal with this by having an article dealing with the music, and directing readers to it via hatnote. I'm loathe to make any improvements to either this or the culture article at present, because they are forks of each other. 86.44.27.87 (talk) 15:39, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

• I think of the term hip-hop as referring to a musical form; however, the Hip hop article is currently formulated to be about "hip-hop culture", and seems to cover the same ground as the Hip hop culture article, even using some of the same language and basic themes. There should be a merge, and it should be pretty easy. I am not an expert, but I believe the primary meaning (being most widely understood, and most specific) of Hip hop is hip-hop music, which to me means turntablism and beatboxing, typically accompanied by rapping, along with subsequent musical forms derived from this movement. If this can be agreed upon, then Hip hop should be a music article, perhaps a redirect to or from the existing article Hip hop music. / edg ☺ ☭ 04:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Please see discussion above, in particular at [4] for answers to your inquiries, specifically, in regards to why Hip hop is a parent article for both hip hop music and hip hop culture. -RoBoTam^ice 20:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of that discussion. Hip hop music has no bearing on my post. We have an article for Hip hop music. That being so, why do we need an article both for hip hop and hip hop culture? We can (and currently do) direct people to a treatment dealing only with hip hop music at the top of our hip hop/hip hop culture article. Why then two separate articles for hip hop and hip hop culture? 86.44.21.238 (talk) 18:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Because Hip hop serves as a parent article rather than a disambiguation page. The consensus goal was to have Hip Hop be a gatekeeper to the various related articles on hip hop (culture, music, fashion, dance, etc), with a short, concise discussion of various subjects wikilinking to the more in-depth discussions. This is by no means uncommon, by the way; a great, closely-related example would be Punk Rock, which is a FA-status article. The Hip Hop article is currently in disarray because someone copied and pasted large sections of opinion pieces and text from other articles into this one. Cleaning this up would actually be a great help. -RoBoTam^ice 14:29, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and the point is that one Hip hop/Hip hop culture article is the natural parent article to the music, fashion, dance, etc articles. The only confusion is that "hip hop" is also now a synonym for the music. We already deal with this by having an article dealing with the music, and directing readers to it via hatnote. I'm loathe to make any improvements to either this or the culture article at present, because they are forks of each other. 86.44.27.87 (talk) 15:39, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Hip hop vs. hip-hop

I'm sure that this was discussed at some point in time, but I don't see it archived anywhere. In any case, when/how was a consensus reached on whether it should be "hip hop" or "hip-hop". The book Droppin' Science: Critical Essays on Rap Music and Hip Hop Culture goes without the hyphen, but most books I've found about hip-hop use the hyphen (e.g. Can't Stop Won't Stop: A History of the Hip-Hop Generation). A GoogleBooks search for hip hop came up with this list: http://books.google.com/books?client=firefox-a&um=1&q=hip+hop&btnG=Search+Books I don't have any real interest in going through and looking at which usage is preferred (there are 1368 books), but I'd just like to see why we use hip hop over hip-hop. I understand that it may simply be a question of standardization, but, in any case, there we are. Tiger Khan (talk) 05:11, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe User:TUF-KAT achieved wiki-wide standardization on this by writing up WP:MUSTARD and proposing it. Kudos to him/her. 86.44.17.205 (talk) 00:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I see TUF-KAT's statement at the bottom of that WP. Tiger Khan (talk) 04:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

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