Talk:Himura Kenshin

Samurai

On the introduction, second paragraph you write "he becomes a wandering samurai". Kenshin was never a samurai, he never had the title or lands, and we never see him getting the title or hinted that he ever got it in the manga.

He is the son of some farmers who died from chollera. He is then saved and picked by Hiko for training, he is a amazing swordmaster but by no means a samurai — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.68.85.129 (talk) 18:49, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

While wandering samurai does not seem good, a hitokiri is a type of samurai, so that makes Kenshin a samurai.Tintor2 (talk) 01:23, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

On what basis do you make claim? In the anime he never claimed to be a samurai, and certainly he wasn't by class. Real samurai wouldn't likely accept someone as one of their own simply because they were a hitokiri. ogenstein (talk) 02:38, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Of course Kenshin never claims to be a samurai because he hides his past. On the other hand, see the article Four Hitokiri of the Bakumatsu; Kenshin is actually based on the Hitokiri Kawakami Gensai. Also, in one scene from the manga (I think it was volume 25 when Kenshin gets his answer to abandon that poor village) Yahiko states that Kenshin is a samurai.Tintor2 (talk) 12:47, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

A couple of points: As per my copy of volume one, it specifies that Kawakami Gensai was the 'inspiration' for the Kenshin character, not that they are the same person. Many aspects of Kawakami's life, based on the linked article, are incompatible with Kenshin's, e.g. age, training, lack of enslavement. Meanwhile, there are multiple characters in Kenshin who are historical characters, e.g. Saitou, Ookubo, and are given their historical names. If the authors wished to make a story about Kawakami, they could have done so and used his name. They didn't. His story is not Kenshin's. Kawakami was a samurai but to say that because he was one, Kenshin must be as well is just projection.

That the hitokiri of the Four Hitokiri are samurai only means that those four were samurai. It is not a generic use of the term and it is incorrect to conflate the two.

Back story for Kenshin exists and none of it contains any references to his being a samurai (nor even hints at it).

Putting aside that Yahiko is likely generalizing there, he knows less about Kenshin's past than the viewer does, as he doesn't get to watch any of his back story, and Kenshin is tight-lipped about what he tells the other characters. This is both an element of his character as well as being a plot device. As you say, he hides his past. People who knew Kenshin well, such as Saitou or Hiko, never make such statements. I'll also note that Kenshin hid that he was the Battousai and a hitokiri but then he stopped doing so, and this was thereafter discussed throughout the show.

So, my point is that there is no documentation and no evidence that Kenshin is a samurai. Despite this, the article asserts unequivocally that he is one. This is speculation and I think inappropriate for the article. It would be inappropriate even if the speculation were correct. Finally, I'll add that the Japanese page for Kenshin does not call him a samurai. The assertion that he is one should be removed. ogenstein (talk) 07:54, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

So um, why is the series called Samurai X then? Who else would they refer to? AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 14:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree that Kenshin is not a samurai. It seems the general "Westerner/English-speaker" or whatever tends to just refer to all Japanese swordsman as samurai without really thinking about it. I'm not implying any expertise in the subject myself, but samurai were a social class given special treatment. Unless you were born into it or, I would assume, a lord gives you the title making you the first in your line, I don't think you were a samurai. Neither of these can be used to describe Kenshin. While there might be the rare instance a character refer to him as a samurai (vol 25 by Yahiko and a random dude), Viz uses the word swordsman alot more, its even in the title. In November an IP changed samurai to swordsman in the Rurouni Kenshin article and I think that is a simple, accurate and uncontroversial way to word it. Xfansd (talk) 16:31, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Even an actual reviewer is confused. (changed one of the paragraphs from critical reception) He said Kenshin is not a samurai but a serial killer. While he is a serial killer in the flashbacks, we almost never saw the second half of his life as Battosai where he does not fight in the shadows. So I'm a bit confused too.Tintor2 (talk) 17:30, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

So there are a pile of secondary sources that assume he is a samurai because of Samurai X, so how should the character be categorized?

• • • Geek.com "How do you describe something that so perfectly encapsulates your young, giddy, adolescent feelings about the legend of a cross-scarred samurai with a ponytail? With a happy heart, I sure will try." [1]
    • GMA "In the popular anime and manga that bear his name, legendary former assassin Himura Kenshin—also known as Samurai X to Pinoy fans—wields a fictional reverse-bladed sword called “sakabato” " [2]
    • Japan Today "Whether you knew him as Himura Kenshin, Hitokiri Battosai, or Samurai X, if you were an anime fan in the late 1990s, odds are you’ve seen or read some of the adventures of the star of "Rurouni Kenshin." [3]
    • Popzara " this is one that fans and lovers of samurai action will want to check out." "If you love the anime series like I do or enjoy samurai films, " [4]
    • Comicbook.com "The fluid, thought-provoking anime followed a skilled samurai named Himura Kenshin as he traveled about, atoning for previous sins he made as a bloodied warrior. " [5]
    • University Herald "The Samurai is one of the best representations of Japan's culture and tradition, as well as its anime, and there is nothing that could better embody both those elements than "Ruroni Kenshin." Another amazing tradition of Japan is the beautiful sumi-e wall art. Now, both these legendary Japanese traditions come together as "Samurai X" characters are drawn as sumi-e wall drawings." [6]
    • Funimation "Funimation Films is proud to announce its acquisition of the "Rurouni Kenshin" live action, samurai film trilogy. " [7]
    • iTech post ""Rurouni Kenshin" or "Samurai X" for most English-speaking fans, follows the story of an ex-samurai who was a deadly assassin during the Meiji Restoration. " [8]
    • Tech Times "Does Rurouni Kenshin being on our list really need to be justified, considering how popular and well-loved the reverse-edged sword wielding former Samurai, Kenshin, is? No, not really, because this is hands-down one of the best classic anime in Netflix's library." [9]

Even if he is technically not a samurai by whatever definition is used, he is labelled a samurai by many of these mainstream sources, so he may still fit in those Samurai in anime and manga category or Samurai anime and manga. The cat is rather out of the bag for limiting what he is considered. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 05:38, 8 May 2017 (UTC), updated 16:57, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

A bit of WP:OSE, but Samurai Pizza Cats calls their characters in the English version samurais, even though they are more like ninjas. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 16:57, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm okay with calling him a swordsman, and in reception or reviews, it can be mentioned that many media reviewers have often labelled him as a samurai because of the Samurai X title. If you want to explain that he's technically not a samurai, please provide reliable sources that analyze this part. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:10, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Yikes! This is becoming a lot of work for a single word. Please forgive my long-windedness.

I think that this position is backwards. Based on numerous wikipedia conventions (see below), the position that requires sourcing (which doesn’t exist), is the one claiming him to be a samurai.

I hate to say it, but the ‘secondary sources’ listed above generally qualify as ‘questionable sources’ for a variety of reasons; but in general, they aren’t discussing what Kenshin is or isn’t. Typically, they’re using the word independent of what it means. Mostly, they’re trying to manufacture some excitement by jamming lots of adjectives together. They aren’t even reviewing the show/movie/manga or discussing the character in any depth, they’re just announcing a product release. They aren’t even representing an actual opinion. They are authoritative of nothing. WP:SOURCES, WP:QUESTIONABLE

• For example, the comicbook.com article was actually announcing an episode of Dragon Ball Super in which there is a reference to the 'Aku Soku Zan' expression used by Saitou, as well as his signature attack.
• The rest of the cited articles make references such as ‘fans and lovers of samurai action’.
• Some only use the word in listing the name of the show, i.e. ‘Samurai X’.
• Or they introduce the word when referring to another site which never used the term, e.g. the University Herald article which refers to a Crunchyroll article announcing the selling of art prints.
• As an aside, at least three of these sites look like they’re the same company just churning out ‘news’ and ‘links’. I don't think they should be used as references for anything, but that's just me… to each their own.
• The Pizza Cats show is described as being ‘farcical’. Note, not in an derogatory manner, but as in its genre.

While Funimation licensed the movie, they are but a distributor. And while they call it a ‘samurai film, or a ‘samurai manga’, they don’t call Kenshin a samurai. The press release uses the word in its highly concentrated publicizing headline and its opening sentence but it never describes Kenshin as a samurai. Instead the words they actually use to describe him are ‘a former assassin’. Press releases are authoritative in the sense that the company released this statement on this date, but because a company describes their product as the ‘best ever’, doesn’t mean that an encyclopedia would call the product the ‘best ever’. Rurouni Kenshin: Funimation Films

I’ll add another semi-offical reference… Aniplex describes Kenshin as ‘a highly skilled swordsman’ and a ‘legendary assassin’. Outside of their opening blurb, they use the word ‘samurai’ only in saying that ‘fans of the samurai genre’…. To summarise, they’re saying that the story is of a genre. Aniplex USA | Ruroni Kenshin

In a nutshell, all of these references are in passing.

I think it’s obvious why the U.S. version is titled, ‘Samurai X’?

The standard you suggest would permit essentially anyone being called anything because it’s on the internet. However, there is a wikipedia page on ‘samurai’ which gives us something tangible to go on. I'll give one similar example… Dr. Death was a football player for the Oakland Raiders. There are hundreds of newspaper and magazine articles calling him 'doctor'. He was called it on TV. He even has a wikipedia page. But he wasn't actually a doctor, because 'doctor' means something different, and all those 'secondary sources' aren't proof that he was a doctor, any more than these ones prove that Kenshin is a samurai.

Additionally, the author wrote 20+ volumes of the story, there are multiple books out about the manga/anime/character. There are 95 episodes of the anime as well as numerous OVA and movies. All of this over an initial period of six years, and then 18 more since the anime ended. None of them state that Kenshin is a samurai. None of the formal descriptions of the anime or manga call him a samurai. The opportunities were there. If he did not, then why would wikipedia?

Now as to why Wikipedia should proactively not include this, here are the following guidelines that touch on this type of issue:

Writing about fiction: Accuracy and appropriate weight
The goal is to attain the greatest possible degree of accuracy in covering the topic at hand….MOS:FICT

Check your facts: Check your fiction
Write material that is true: check your facts. Do not write material that is false. This might require that you verify your alleged facts. This is a crucial part of citing good sources: even if you think you know something, you have to provide references anyway to prove to the reader that the fact is true. Material that seems to naturally stem from sourced claims might not have been actually claimed. WP:CYF

Verifiability: Responsibility for providing citations
All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution.

Attribute all quotations and any material whose verifiability is challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article.

Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source. WP:VERIFY, WP:PROVEIT

I hope this addresses every concern. Regards, ogenstein (talk) 08:43, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm merely pointing out that these mainstream media sources have purported his occupation as a samurai or former samurai, and that media sources have classified the films as samurai films. Yes, they are in passing, but they still propagate that assumption, and some are from what are considered secondary reliable sources independent of the subject. None are authoritative or dictate what Himura's occupation is. It can be given appropriate WP:WEIGHT though as with the fake moon landing, like adding a footnote or a statement saying "Although some newspaper and magazine articles have assumed Kenshin to be a former samurai and the series to be a samurai trilogy or samurai film (reference list), neither Watsuki nor the anime producers have ever labelled him as such (embedded comment WP:BLUE, refer to this talk page) while other reviewers have criticized the use of "Samurai X" as a reference to Himura.(use DVD Vision Japan ref)" The article right now has the quote "Matthew Anderson from DVD Vision Japan found the series' title "Samurai X" unfitting for Kenshin " but it's buried in there. Do you think that single statement is clear enough to dismiss the passing mentions? That this topic is even brought up and discussed indicates the current wording isn't clear enough. This isn't a fringe assumption. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 12:24, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Please, let me recapitulate a few facts: "Samurai" were a hereditary warrior class which "served", i.e. they were followers a Daimyo or the Shogun, and they received a stipend. According to Marius B. Jansen (Sakamoto Ryôma and the Meiji Restoration, pp. 24 ff.) the Tokugawa samurai were strictly stratified in ten ranks: the "upper samurai" jôshi ranks (karô, chûrô, umamawari, koshôgumi, rusuigumi) held court offices, adminstrative post, magistracies etc. The "lower samurai" (kashi) were the gôshi, yônin, kachi, kumigai and ashigaru. The gôshi had land of 30-350 koku; the last four ranks often received incomes in kind from their lord's warehouse, and ashigaru often had to perform physical labor for their lord. On the other hand, by the mid-19th century, farmers could attend sword academies and hope to rise in station by performing feats of valor. Thus, Kondō Isami, the commander of the Shinsengumi, and his vice-commander Hijikata Toshizō, both excellent and fear-inspiring swordsmen, were born of peasant families. With regard to Himura Kenshin, unless there is some clear evidence that his family indeed belonged to Japan's landed gentry or that his family received a stipend of any kind from a lord, I maintain that strictly speaking he cannot be called a samurai. The media, of course, need not be precise in their interpretation of the word "samurai"; however, I believe that an encyclopedia should be so precise. Therefore I think it would be best to concede that, while he is often described as a samurai by the media, the story gives no indication whether he comes from a samurai family and leaves his background (apparently intentionally) open. -- Zerolevel (talk) 19:07, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

The manga or anime never make it clear. In the series' flashbacks, there is one scene the famous Katsura Kogorō/Kido Takayoshi offers Kenshin to work as a bodyguard, but Kenshin rejects the offer as he was still working as an assassin. In a later chapter of these flashbacks, Kenshin decides to serve Katsura taking a more active role and even faces the Shinsengumi by the ending of that chapter. Still, I don't know if by serving Katsura, one could have distinguished as a samurai as Kenshin was kept called Hitokiri Battosai. Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 22:44, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

That he may individually have provided (or been invited to provide) guard service to any person of rank would not by itself make a person a samurai. Bodyguard service could be performed by a samurai, a sumotori, a farmer competent in fighting etc. As described above, samurai strictly means a hereditary class of warriors with a hereditary stipend. Therefore, IMO only by being rewarded a hereditary right to a stipend amounting to not less than 3 koku (i.e. ashigaru) or more - including the right to wear the dai-sho - would a man and his progeny rise to samurai status. Regards, -- Zerolevel (talk) 17:23, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Only in two chapters Kenshin talks about his family but they all died before he became a teen. In fact, Kenshin's real name is Shinta. His master, Hiko Seijuro, gave him the name Kenshin believing him to better fit a swordsman.Tintor2 (talk) 18:10, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Break

How about if we simply make a paragraph about reviewers discussing whether or not Kenshin qualifies as a samurai but don't put the category? Just got this idea.Tintor2 (talk) 20:27, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm watching the live-action films and the captions describe him as reputed to be a "samurai's ghost" so the word samurai is still being tossed around. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 07:03, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm okay with not calling him a samurai, but it should definitely have a paragraph about how the samurai label was attributed to him from different media. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:49, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

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Sakabatō

I think we could use a section on his sword, it has a dedicated article at ja:逆刃刀. Seems to have been mentioned in the media a few times (it's a fictional type of sword, but an official replica was made, and there was a bit of speculation about whether there were real similar historical swords). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:18, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

I guess it would work as a subsection under reception.However, we would need to translate the sources too.Tintor2 (talk) 11:45, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

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