Talk:Helmut Oberlander

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Mr. Oberlander was known to me since childhood (late 1950s) in Canada. He has always impressed me as an honest, respectable and considerate individual. A man of faith and good nature and gentle demeanour. He certainly never impressed me as a man beset by demons of past wrong doing. It was with great surprise that I heard of his deportation from the United States and subsequent legal problems in trying maintain his Canadian citizenship. I find it remarkable that man who would face no similar problems were he to decide to live in Germany would fight so hard to remain in his adoptive land. I believe, from knowing him that this is because he feels a great attachment to the country and the community he has contributed so much to. When I heard about his problems I felt it might be instructive to find out how other contemporaries had conducted themselves during the war. One of those I read up on was Manechem Begin, who I thought was a young man during the war and later thrust onto the world stage by the events that flowed from the war. It was with some surprise that I found that he was much older than Mr. Oberlander. That he had been indoctrinated in Zionist philosophy from his formative years by a father who was committed to that cause (in contrast Mr. Oberlander's father was a country physician who died in his formative years during the Ukrainian famines of the mid thirties, and was apparently apolitical). I learned that Mr. Begin was active in Zionist youth movements from the time of his Bar Mitvah until his graduation from Law School. That he functioned as propandandist for the Betar Movement and that the aims of this movement were strangely aligned with National Socialist philosophy, except that it espoused the recreation of a Jewish racial identity and the reconquest of the biblical homelands by this reconstituted Jewish folk. His leadership of the the Czech Betar just prior to the invasion by Germany, then his leadership of the Polish Betar just prior to the invasion by Germany and his subsequent move to Lithuania and "arrest" by Soviet agents just prior to Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union and the subsequent release and movement to Isreal as a junior officer in the largely jewish Ander's army from Soviet territory with Stalin's blessing during the height of the German occupation of the Soviet Union, all suggested that he may have initially been a collaborator with both the Nazis and the Allies and that his betrayal of his former Nazi allies may have greatly contributed to motivation for Nazi retribution against Jews. Whether that is the case or not, I found it odd that the same groups who were so vehement in seeking retribution for the participation of conscripted youngsters like Mr. Oberlander were totally mute in critizing wartime leaders in the Jewish community who were likely to have contributed to this holocaust. I'm also extremely dissappointed by the North American Jewish community, who remain totally and unconditionally supportive of Isreali leaders and policies in occupation of the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza. I understand the historical perspective of this community and it's longing for a national state identity and the same national pride that others may feel for their racial identity expressed through a state embodying their ethnic, cultural and in this case religious identity. It is however exactly in this regard that I find their choice of Mr. Oberlander as an outlet for their outrage over past injustice against them, because Helmut enthusiastically embraces a multi-ethnic community preferring it to the option of returning to a country that would seem to provide exactly the kind of identity to which so many Jewish citizens in that same community aspire and direct their energies to creating. It's a very strange world in which such contradictions play out and where such lack of compassion is expressed by those who seek it most. JimBetker 04:45, 10 October 2007 (UTC)JimBetker

It is nothing short of bizarre to defend Helmut Oberlander by attacking Manechem Begin and the “North American Jewish Community”. However, much of the discussion above, although framed in temperate language, is firmly in-line with well-worn, post-World War II anti-semitic attacks, e.g. stating that the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves.

Let’s focus on Mr. Oberlander instead:

- Much is made of Mr. Oberlander’s age, 17, when he became a member of Einsatzgruppe D. This is only one year less than the standard age for enlistment then and now, 18. He was hardly a “youngster”.

- Mr. Oberlander was a translator. The job of Einsatzgruppe D was to kill civilians, mostly Jews. The job of a translator in this unit was to help in the rounding up of victims and to tell these victims to line up to be shot.

- Over the course of the war, Mr. Oberlander took leave from Einsatzgruppe D. He returned each time. Contrast this to Pope Benedict XVI, who, after being drafted at the age of 16, deserted his military unit (a unit which was not dedicated to the killing of civilians) towards the end of the war.

- Mr. Oberlander would not have been allowed to come to Canada had it been known that he was a member of Einsatzgruppe D.

Note, that none of the facts above - that the job of Einsatzgruppe D was to kill civilians, that Mr. Oberlander was 17 at the time he first became a member of Einsatzgruppe D, that he was a translator for Einsatzgruppe D, that he took leaves of absence from Einsatzgruppe D from which he returned, that he would not have been allowed to come Canada had his war history been known, etc. - are “alleged”, they are proven.

- In all the reported material regarding Mr. Oberlander, there is not one instance where, as an eyewitness, he discusses what he or Einsatzgruppe D did during the war. Not one example given of him contributing in any way to community efforts to promote tolerance by using his experience to inform others or even by giving money to these efforts. The extent of his support for a multicultural community certainly appears to be supporting (and being rewarded by) an old and well-established German community.

- To argue that an individual should not be accountable for past actions because they have lived well after those actions is contrary to our system of justice. Americans who participated in violent activities in the 60s, even as lookouts or get-away drivers, and who have led blameless lives in Canada, are held accountable when discovered. Rwandan’s who participated in that genocide in the 90s, are being held accountable when discovered. (Interestingly, one of these individuals, Léon Mugesera, has also resorted to anti-semitic attacks, excoriated by the Supreme Court of Canada, in his defence. http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2005/2005scc39/2005scc39.html)

Mr. Oberlander is a man who bet that he would not be discovered, doing his best to conceal his past. He lost that bet. Lpastern 22:36, 11 November 2007 (UTC)LDP

I think putting Oberlander in the Category "Nazi" is unjustified. Is every German WWII soldier considered a Nazi? He fought for his country when he was a young man, like so many others. This is just appalling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.250.206 (talk) 09:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Much editing

I tried to delete most of the opinionizing, including the "we think this," since "we" don't. I tried to stick with facts, but didn't go to great lengths to fact-check. I did visit the links -- they're all dead, but I didn't want to delete them unceremoniously. Someone may be able to find archives. It still needs lots of cleaning, but I'd need to know a lot more about the case before I could turn this into something readable. But I hope I made a start. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.57.127.158 (talk) 06:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Unjust

Most people in Canada really don't know how things used to be, what it was like living in the Soviet Union--especially as an ethnic-German. I know people who do, and I know of stories about what used to be done to them, and what it was like when the German Army eventually showed up. If you were a man of military age, did you really have a choice to join? Noyou did not. And if you could also speak Russian and Ukrainian, then if you were below the manditory age, you could still be enlisted for non-combat roles, as was the case here. People should look at this case, and those of several other supposed "war criminals," and question how our government works; this is clearly a case of a certain group of people getting into a position of power where they can push their agenda. Holding somebody responsible for something over 60 years after the fact, based on spurious "evidence," and without properly taking into consideration all of teh circumstances, is simply unjust. This should not be happening in Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.44.221 (talk) 19:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think it should, simply for the reason that he is, in a way, responsible for massive murders happening in Ukraine during WWII. And the fact that he still lives in Canada is a shame for Canadian government and Canada's justice system. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.97.125.68 (talk) 03:40, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

The situation certainly looks to be unjust and the content on this page appears very biased against the man. Why does the info box (top right) state his "Allegiance" is to "Nazi Germany"? According to Wikipedia "Allegiance" is something that is owed to a ruling power. That definition is somewhat out of date - a more current usage of the word is support that someone declares for another person or entity. Oberlander doesn't seem to claim he supports Nazi Germany - so the information is clearly incorrect. So, currently, this should be Canada or perhaps the Ukraine. How on earth can this be "Nazi Germany"? I am not a supporter of the man, I know very little about him, but the impact of willfully posting incorrect information like this is just as dangerous as some of the acts mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.243.33.113 (talk) 18:59, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Sources

These are the sources from the 3 June 2007 version of this article, can't understand why these were removed.

• "Helmut Oberlander no longer a citizen: Federal cabinet strips citizenship for second time in 12-year battle" http://www.therecord.com/home_page_front_story/home_page_front_story_1050499.html
• "Oberlander, Fast lose citizenship over hidden wartime activities" http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=e795be47-3009-45cd-8038-62f840c51585&k=4672
• "Passage of time has altered perspectives on war crimes" http://www.therecord.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=record/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1180758811573&call_pageid=1024322168441&col=1024322596091

- 220 of ^Borg 13:21, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately these references are all dead links! --220 of ^Borg 13:30, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

"Former Nazi could face loss of citizenship, deportation" from 2001/05/03 is a good link, with three more HERE. --220 of ^Borg 13:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Figuring out whether to include long-dead links that were never Wayback Machine'd is always a tough call. Deleting a couple of the 2007-edition links was problematic since they refer to sources that could (if real), be verified in theory via paper copy. OTOH, if there's anything suspicious about how they were added in the first place, that would be very concerning. Where I've checked particular statements I've been generally pretty surprised by how much of this material has checked out.--j⚛e decker^talk 17:44, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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Mass graves

"Ek 10a executed more than 40,000 people, most of whom were Jews" - Have the corresponding mass graves been found? --105.0.2.86 (talk) 12:10, 8 September 2021 (UTC)