Talk:Hebrew astronomy

David Gans & other concerns

As Johann Műller (Regiomontanus) died on 6 July 1476, it seems highly questionble that David Gans ever corresponded with him.

B00P 21:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Must have been the oldest man alive to correspond with Regiomontanus and Kepler. I think this article needs considerable trimming: cut the redundant stuff in Biblical cosmology and trim that enormous list of red names. Maestlin 04:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I just did a Google search on "Biblical astronomy" and "Biblical cosmology" in the process of thinking about whether the two articles could be merged. Found a lot of weird stuff relating to modern interpretations of the Bible--geocentrism and so forth. The historical parts of these articles should be strippped out and put into a new page with a title like "Astronomy in the Bible," and these two pages merged to hold the modern Bible study stuff. Maestlin 01:34, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Is that a typo about Rabban Gamaliel and a "telescope"? He lived only about 15 centuries before its invention! --Tomrosenfeld 18:47, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The original text of this article (I've modified a few passages) was taken straight from the Jewish Encyclopaedia. I have no idea what the author had in mind. but the word "telescope" should probably be read loosely, maybe it's just a sighting tube or a mirror. If you feel confident about it, take it out! Maestlin 23:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup or re-write

Hi. I've no expertise in this material; I came here because I was curious about the phrase "waters above the firmament". I'm not in a position to edit the page, but I've very strong stylistic concerns about it. Particularly, I'm concerned that much of this article reads like an apologia, which an encyclopaedic artical really must not be. Certainly it is in conflict with NPOV. I'm particularly concerned about narrative comments, such as "... which is not a bad description ...", and a comparison of Hebrew astronomy with scientific knowledge, which is very much making an argument. In short, the piece is very strongly in need of an expert on the source material, who is prepared to not write an apologia.

Accordingly, I have added to this page the "expert" tag. Cmsg 15:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I'm adding the NPOV tag to the top of the page as well. 132.18.128.6 13:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I have much the same analysis. If this stuff has been advocated by theologians, it needs to be presented in context as apologetics. "Rev. John Johnson of Kansas points out that, 'Over a dozen verses in the Bible say God stretches the heavens. Most scientists presently hold that the Universe is being stretched. The earth's atmosphere was formed by violent volcanic eruptions, thus, "beaten out" might not be a bad description.'" If this is just the personal conclusion of some Wikipedia editor then it doesn't belong at all. (On a potentially offtopic side note I must say that this is really cringe-inducingly silly stuff. If I were a Christian I'd be embarrased by this type of thing - the Bible predicts an expanding universe? In between explaining how speckled goats come from plain goats that copulate in the presence of speckly objects (Gen. 30:37) and how rabbits are really ruminants (Lev. 11:6) no doubt. Oh sure, the Hebrews could do tensor algebra, but they were baffled by barnyard animals... Riiight....) <eleland/talkedits> 15:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I've rewritten the section you're referring to, as I believe the previous version to be unsalvageable. For reference, here is the original version of the sky section:

During the ages, various Hebrews had different interpretations of the word sky based on the Hebrew word. In Genesis one, the word for sky can mean stretched out as in an expanse, or it can mean beaten out. Actually in a sense, both of these might actually be true. Over a dozen verses in the Bible say God stretches the heavens. Most scientists presently hold that the Universe is being stretched. The Earth's atmosphere was formed by violent volcanic eruptions, thus, "beaten out" might not be a bad description. There have been super volcanic eruptions that have been many hundreds of times more powerful than Mt. Saint Helens. Some early Hebrew translators described the sky as an expanse. Some others described the sky as being solid. The expanse or firmament (depending on ones desired meaning) was set in the midst of the waters, and it divided the waters above from those beneath. It is not clear the meaning of waters above are because God's abode is described as having waters or frost. Since the expanse divides the waters above from the waters below (on the earth), the expanse may mean the Universe separating the seas on earth from God's abode. The raḳia' representing the sky in Ezekiel 1:22 resembled frost which is not a bad description for a lot of the Universe. Recently Scientists have found that there is an unimagined amount of water in the Universe-most is crystal frost, or in water vapor. The word for Heaven is Shamayim. Mayim means waters. The most abundant elements in the Universe are hydrogen, helium, and oxygen. Water is formed of hydrogen and oxygen. According to the 10th century French commentator, Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo ben Yitzchaki), who wrote a comprehensive running grammatical and explanatory commentary on the entire Tanakh and most of the Talmud, the first sylable in shamayim (sha) comes from esh (anicent Hebrew had no vowels written in the text) in Hebrew which means fire. If this is correct, Shamayim (heaven) means fire and water. On a more superficial level, the first syllable in the word Shamayim is "sham," which means "there." As a conjunction, "sham mayim" means "water is there," or perhaps more idiomatically, "there is water there." The English transliteration is written "Shamayim."

The new version of the section should probably be expanded. --Utility Monster (talk) 06:06, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Inaccuracy

The section corresponding the Jewish months with the signs of the Zodiac is inaccurate. Nisan (the first month on the Jewish calendar) does not correspond with January (Gregorian first month) but with September. This calendar also ignores leap year in the Jewish calendar, which adds an extra month every couple years. Kristamaranatha (talk) 21:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The biggest problem with this article

It needs a whole lot more references that aren't the Bible or Talmud. Utility Monster (talk) 06:08, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

The names of the days of the week

This needs to be removed: "From the names of the seven planets were derived the names of the days of the week." There are no names for the days of the week in Hebrew (just as there are no names for the days of the month in English), as the next sentence says "only the week-days were counted, while the Sabbath had a name of its own." The days of the week are referred to by their number, day one for Sunday, day two for Monday, etc. except for Saturday which is called Shabbat (Sabbath) and not day seven. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.135.50.5 (talk) 16:48, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I have made the necessary changes.67.135.50.5 (talk) 17:05, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

This does not make any sense?

I read the current text (per 19th of February 2014) and found it to be terribly postulating about what people believed in former times: "Like many ancient peoples, the Hebrews believed the sky was a solid dome or firmament with the Sun, Moon and stars embedded in it." We cannot conclude what people believed out of allegorical writings. To what extent people took such explanations literally we may read in ancient scriptures remains mere guessing. Therefor I edited the sentence and wrote: "Like many ancient peoples, the Hebrews likened the sky with a solid dome or firmament with the Sun, Moon and stars embedded in it." My suggestion was not accepted, with the explanation that the sentence doesn't make any sense in English. The verb 'to liken' has been used in documented English language since the 13th Century, according to etymonline.com[1]. I'm not a native English speaker (I'm Norwegian), but have difficult to accept the argument anyway. --Xact (talk) 04:08, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

The problem is not "liken", which is an older, but proper, usage, but with "with". They would "liken it to a solid dome". The more important question is "Why change?" other than to blur the plain meaning of the sentence. You are making the assumption that this usage was allegorical, not literal, which would be your interpretation, which is forbidden in Wikipedia. Editor2020 (talk) 17:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Mystical connection of Scriptures and Menorah to the 7 Classical Planets and Lunar Phases

The ancient Hebrews (unlike their neighbors the Babylonians and Egyptians) believed in their one God and did not worship the 7 moving objects in the heavens - the 7 Classical planets - as heavenly gods which influenced events on Earth. However, they were well aware of the Sun, Moon, and five planets seen with the naked eye and Hebrew mysticism recognized their great importance. Therefore, along with the 4 lunar phases being slightly over 7 days (~7.4 days) each, the number 7 was held in very high regard. The Torah reflects this with Bereshis 1:1 (Book of Genesis 1:1) being 7 words and 28 letters (7x4) in its original Hebrew. This is known as God's signature.

Genesis 1:14, "And God said, 'Let there be lights in the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons, days, years and festivals'...the 4th day (of 7)." The #7 is the great recurring numerical theme of the Hebrew (and Christian) scriptures. The menorah's 7 lamps on 4 branches correspond to the lights of the 7 Classical planets: Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun (4th), Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. - Benjamin Franklin 75.74.130.115 (talk) 14:23, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

The Hebrew names of the 7 Classical Planets: five planets, Sun (star) and one moon (planetary satellite)

• Lebanah, the Moon
• Kokab, Mercury
• Kokebet, Nogah or Kokab-Nogah, Venus
• Ḥammah, the Sun
• Maadim, Mars
• Ẓedeḳ, Jupiter
• Shabbetai, Saturn

In many languages, the names of the days of the week are derived from the names of the 'seven planets'; each day was consecrated to the particular planet that ruled during the early hours of the morning. While Talmudists were familiar with the planets and their characteristics in astrology, they opposed their worship, so weekdays are not named in Hebrew besides for the Sabbath. Instead they are referred to by number. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.180.104.60 (talk) 18:05, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Diameter of the firmament

I quote from the article:

another estimates the diameter of this plate as one-sixth of the sun's diurnal journey,[citation needed] while another, a Babylonian, estimates it at 1,000 parasangs (approx. 3728 miles)

These "two" opinions are the same. Rava (bPesachim 94b) calculates that the width of the firmament is one-sixth of the sun's diurnal journey, which he claims is 6,000 parasangs. Therefore the width, according to him, is 1,000 parasangs.

Toraumada (talk) 08:41, 5 December 2016 (UTC)