Talk:Hear My Train A Comin'/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Viriditas (talk · contribs) 23:53, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Resolved

• Hear My Train A Comin' (disambiguation) is a real mess. I think it could probably be deleted at this point. I realize that has little bearing on this review, but the dab header is all but useless. Viriditas (talk) 19:51, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

According to MOS:DABRL, it appears unwarranted (four months after creation, the terms are still red links). I'll list it at AfD. —Ojorojo (talk) 02:06, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Images

Resolved

• While I appreciate the use of File:Hear My Train A Comin' solo image.jpg in the infobox, I find it unusual. That is to say, it's a crop of the film poster (File:Jimi_Hendrix_film_poster.jpg) regardless of where you downloaded it from. Shouldn't we be using File:Soundtrack recordings-200x200.jpg instead, since the single comes from the soundtrack? Of course, I much prefer your image crop, but I have never seen anyone crop the film poster to represent the single, when we have the official soundtrack album cover. If the definitive single release comes from this soundtrack, then we should consider using this album cover instead. This is a bit too complex for me to obsess about it, as I don't really concern myself with fair use issues, but I suspect your use of the cropped film poster may not be correct. If you're going to use an image here, I think you have to use the soundtrack image. Viriditas (talk) 22:18, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, I think this is straightened out. I updated the album image, added a FUR, and used it here (the previous image is cropped from Discogs that used it as the DVD cover; an editor changed the description to "movie poster" – I suppose it could be both). —Ojorojo (talk) 04:11, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. When I have more time I'll get back to this review. Viriditas (talk) 07:00, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, images look good. Viriditas (talk) 03:06, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Infobox

Resolved

• Please note the discrepancy between the caption of the image (discussed above) and the album name in the infobox. For example, the image caption refers to "A Film About Jimi Hendrix" while the infobox single title refers to the "Film Jimi Hendrix". We should choose the standard (or alternate) title and stick with it for consistency. Viriditas (talk) 23:50, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Done, the film is now consistently Jimi Hendrix; the album title is Soundtrack Recordings from the Film Jimi Hendrix. —Ojorojo (talk) 04:11, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• Hendrix British singles chronology "Fire" (1982)
  • This doesn't make any sense. The article on that song, "Fire (The Jimi Hendrix Experience song)", lists the release as 1969. Viriditas (talk) 03:17, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Clarified. A live single version of "Fire" was released in 1982 (also in US), from the The Jimi Hendrix Concerts album. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:41, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm still confused. Was it released as a British single in 1982? I guess I don't understand how this part of the infobox is being used. Viriditas (talk) 19:37, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I don't really like this field and often leave it empty. Since HMTAC wasn't released as a single in the US, a British singles chronology was used. It was preceded by "JBG" and followed by the live "Fire" (I noted above that the latter was also released in the US to show it wasn't an obscure oddity). However, I can see how it might be confusing, so I removed the chronology (MOS:INFOBOX says "The less information it [an infobox] contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance... exclude any unnecessary content.") —Ojorojo (talk) 21:54, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Lead

Resolved

• "Hear My Train A Comin'" (or a variation of "Get My Heart Back Together")
  • Is this actually a variation of a song by that name or an alternate title? Viriditas (talk) 19:39, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Since the only other title used for an actual release was "Get My Heart Back Together", I changed it to alternatively titled that (regardless of other working titles). —Ojorojo (talk) 21:54, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

• It has been called "a powerful blues prayer based on the salvation-train metaphor" of American folklore by biographer John McDermott.
  • "Biographer Johh McDermott called the song "a powerful blues prayer based on the salvation-train metaphor" of American folklore." However, I think this kind of sentence can be paraphrased rather than quoted, although that usually comes down to personal preference. It would be nice to link to an article on the salvation train metaphor, but all I could find is list of train songs. Viriditas (talk) 20:28, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Agree, but I can't find any RS that expands/defines "salvation train" (it's mentioned mostly on Christian websites). Without that wording, it becomes: "The train is a metaphor for hope for delivery from one's woes as sometimes expressed in gospel music". I'll work on it. —Ojorojo (talk) 21:54, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Paraphrased.—Ojorojo (talk) 16:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I think this will need another pass. I'll have more to say about it later. Viriditas (talk) 01:22, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Hendrix recorded the song in different settings several times between 1967 and 1970, but never completed it to his satisfaction.
  • It isn't immediately clear what "different settings" means here. Viriditas (talk) 22:49, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Clarified with specifics. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

• The only version released during his lifetime was featured in the 1968 film documentary Experience (also known as See My Music Talking).
  • "The documentary film Experience (1968) features the only version released during Hendrix's lifetime." Viriditas (talk) 22:59, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Changed. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

• Early releases include those from Woodstock, Berkeley, and Maui
  • Since you linked to the Woodstock festival, should you also link to the Berkeley Community Theatre here? Maui is going to be a bit more controversial (and I will of course get to that in the review) but if you did link here, it would go to the town of Makawao, Hawaii, which is where the concert occurred. Viriditas (talk) 22:34, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Not necessary for lead, so linked all in Composition section. —Ojorojo (talk) 04:11, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

• One thing I wondered about was whether critics could decide on a definitive "best" version. I recall hearing a live version that was released in the late 1990s (I think) that was the best I had ever heard, but I can't seem to find the recording. I would have to go through the album covers to find it. Viriditas (talk) 01:22, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
  • I think this is it: Live at the Fillmore East (Jimi Hendrix album). Viriditas (talk) 01:46, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's one of my favorites. It was an early candidate for the original Band of Gypsys album, but later became the opening track on Band of Gypsys 2. However, the consensus is for the Berkeley version (although Roby calls the 1967 solo performance "a definitive performance"): "On May 30, 1970, during the Cry of Love tour, Hendrix with Mitchell and bassist Billy Cox were filmed performing the song at the Berkeley Community Theatre.[33] This twelve-minute rendition is considered by many to be the definitive version.[15][34][35]" Should I give this more emphasis? —Ojorojo (talk) 16:04, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

If you can be brief, then yes. BTW, I just listened to the Fillmore East recording again, and I thought I could hear the effects of sound editing. At one point, either during a verse or a chorus, the guitar seems almost imperceptibly on top of the drums, as if someone had sped it up just a touch. Was this track edited for the late 1990s release? Viriditas (talk) 01:28, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Several songs on Fillmore East are edited. When the album came out, I noticed differences between some songs and the bootlegs I had been listening to. However, Train didn't stand out. I haven't found any RS comparing the various iterations (but I like the mix/mastering on BOG 2 better). Since the Hendrix Estate was unable to acquire the master tapes, we might not hear the complete or "original" recordings for awhile. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:17, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• Several performances were recorded and in 1971 the most acclaimed rendition was released on the Rainbow Bridge album
  • That's the most acclaimed rendition? It's horrible. Viriditas (talk) 21:27, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Gesundheit! Train is a moving target – since he never finished it, we can only speculate what is definitive. As good as the BOG versions are (I added an authorized/licensed Vevo link), I think Miles jaunty reading doesn't really capture its blues side. And the Berkeley version shows Hendrix's more developed post-BOG guitar style. However, I think the article was better without the extra emphasis on what critics said (11, 20, and 22 years ago), so I changed it. It leaves it more open to other possible views. Change as you see fit. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:03, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I prefer the jazz approach. Anyway, my point is that the article says the definitive version is the Berkeley Community Theatre performance, but you neglect to mention this in the lead. The current wording is somewhat clunky ("three live performances were released, including on the Rainbow Bridge album from his post-Band of Gypsys tour" Huh?) and you repeat the word "including" twice in the last paragraph. A more simple, streamlined approach here would allow me to pass it. I just don't like the readability of the last paragraph of the lead. Viriditas (talk) 20:43, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Changed. —Ojorojo (talk) 22:25, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

It reads better, but the lead still says Rainbow Bridge is the definitive version while the body says it was Berkeley. Am I missing something or is this an error? Viriditas (talk) 00:53, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Simplified (hopefully). The complete audio from Berkeley appears on the Rainbow Bridge album, Blues, and Voodoo Child; an edited version is in the film Jimi Plays Berkeley. The complete audio from Maui has not been officially released (none of the performances from Maui are included on the Rainbow Bridge album); an edited version is in the film Rainbow Bridge. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:41, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch. Since we are now in more of a YouTube era, when younger people read that the definitive version was on Rainbow Bridge, they are going to watch the live video of Hendrix's performance of the song in Hawaii and shake their heads. The fact that there was major fuckery involved in the release of the album is going to go right over their heads. For most, Rainbow Bridge refers to the performance in Hawaii, not Berkeley, regardless of how the songs were released. Viriditas (talk) 19:33, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Background and lyrics

Resolved

• With the Experience, one of his earliest recordings was "Red House", which is included on the 1967 UK Are You Experienced debut album
  • Are you trying to tell the reader that "Red House" was one of his earliest blues recordings? It isn't clear. Viriditas (talk) 04:55, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Reordered for clarification. Before going to England, he recorded some blues songs as a sideman, but I think this may be unnecessary detail. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

How about now? (I hoped to point out that he recorded blues very early with the Experience, rather than RH just being the first blues song they recorded). —Ojorojo (talk) 16:04, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

• Other blues songs, including Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor", B.B. King's "Rock Me Baby", Elmore James' "Bleeding Heart", and a medley of Muddy Waters' songs, titled "Catfish Blues" were adapted and frequently performed by the Experience during the early years.
  • "In their early years, the Experience adapted and frequently performed other blues songs, including Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor", B.B. King's "Rock Me Baby", Elmore James' "Bleeding Heart", and a song based on a medley of Muddy Waters' verses called "Catfish Blues"." Viriditas (talk) 20:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Changed. I'm still trying to find the right mix of active vs. passive. —Ojorojo (talk) 02:06, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

• He developed the song in a similar manner as "Voodoo Child (Slight Return)" evolved from "Catfish Blues" and later often added "I'm gonna be a voodoo child" to the lyrics.
  • This is a bit confusing. Could you clarify this sentence, either with punctuation or additional wording? Viriditas (talk) 01:37, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Clarified for lyrics. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:17, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• McDermott describes his lyrics..."
  • You only introduced McDermott in the lead. You should probably introduce him here as well since the lead is supposed to summarize the article. Viriditas (talk) 06:03, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Added. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:17, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Composition and early live releases

Resolved

• On July 30, 1970, Hendrix, Mitchell, and Cox performed on the slope of Haleakalā volcano near Makawao on the island of Maui, Hawaii.
  • I think this is a vestige of the more sensational wording found in the popular press. First of all, Maui is composed of two volcanoes. the West Maui Mountains (or just Kahalawai) and Haleakalā. Considering the geography and the location of population centers, the majority of the population lives on a "slope" of one of these two volcanoes. With that said, in this context, the term "slope" refers to the "upcountry" region of Maui. The location Hendrix played was a former cow pasture located at about 2,000 feet above sea level in the hills of Olinda, southeast of the center of the town of Makawao, on the northwest, upcountry slope of Haleakala on East Maui. You can use that as a footnote if you like, or just ignore it. Viriditas (talk) 10:58, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Early bootlegs were titled Live from the Crater..., etc. I kept it simple and will add the details to the Rainbow Bridge film article. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:17, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

• Per the MOS (Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Linking) , I removed the links from the quote. Links should be sparingly in quotes, if at all. Viriditas (talk) 06:39, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Studio recordings

Resolved

• No problems found. Viriditas (talk) 20:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Other live recordings

Resolved

• The documentary film seems out of place in this section. Can you think of a better place to put it? Consider removing it entirely or adding it to a footnote. Would it work as a dab header? Viriditas (talk) 20:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Removed. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:03, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Notes

Resolved

• Everything looks good on the first pass. One thing that bothers me though (and it has no bearing on this review): it's 2014 going on 2015. Why can't we link to record album codes like we do to books? Viriditas (talk) 21:52, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, I've tried to find some older songs to download, but didn't like the mixes/mastering (remember "Re-Channeled for Stereo"?). That might be a solution to find (or avoid) a particular iteration. —Ojorojo (talk) 02:06, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

References

• You've got numerous duplicate links in this section. Please remove them. Viriditas (talk) 04:56, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Removed all links to Hendrix and the Experience (obvious), but left in the author links (a reader may just click on one of the references and not look through the rest). —Ojorojo (talk) 16:41, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that's still considered overlinking, and that you should only link to the first instance. After all, you could make that same argument in links throughout the article. However, if you want clarification on it, you could take it to a relevant noticeboard. Another alternative is to attribute inline and link there. Viriditas (talk) 18:44, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Changed. Yes, it appears to be the FA practice, although the Hendrix FA references have no author links). My point was, using the ref=harv, one may go directly from ref# to cite to author/book and skip over everything else. —Ojorojo (talk) 21:54, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Templates

Resolved

• Is the open on load (if only one footer template exists) normal for large music templates like {{Jimi Hendrix}}? Seems like too much information to be helpful on open. I always thought large footer templates like this should be closed on load regardless of already existing footers. Viriditas (talk) 23:55, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:NAVBOX seems to dissuade oversized navboxes; some of the longer ones are set to collapsed. I'll change it and see what happens. —Ojorojo (talk) 02:06, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Criteria

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:

   Last paragraph of lead needs rewrite per above

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

   References section has duplicate links

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. Has an appropriate reference section:

   B. Citations to reliable sources:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

   Stable version

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   Concerns above with the use of File:Hear My Train A Comin' solo image.jpg

   Fixed.

   B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

   OK

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Minor issues. Viriditas (talk) 20:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

   All done. Confusion over the definitive recording in the lead resolved. As I said above, when I think of Rainbow Bridge in the YouTube era, I think of the video from Hawaii, not the recording that strangely enough, includes the audio from Berkeley. Good job. Viriditas (talk) 20:33, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. The Maui/film version is a bit rough (plus the drum mic wasn't working properly, so Mitchell later re-recorded his parts) – wouldn't want the confusion. —Ojorojo (talk) 20:48, 16 November 2014 (UTC)