Talk:Harmonic major scale

Unique?

• It is important to note that the sequence of notes in the harmonic major scale is unique. That is to say that it is not a permutation on any other scale.

What does this mean, exactly? —Keenan Pepper 05:25, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

For example, the minor scale may be considered as derived from the major scale. The C major and A minor scales have the exact same notes but different tonics or most important notes. The claim is then that the C harmonic major scale, C D E F G Ab B C, may not be turned into a different pre-existing well known scale by using a different tonic.

See Diatonic_scale#Technical_composition_of_diatonic_scales. Hyacinth 11:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It also means that the Harmonic Major is not a mode of Harmonic Minor. Their structures are not the same. I am correcting the entry from 4/1/2008 to reflect this. -Tedclaymore (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, then the statement should read "not a MODE OF any other scale", but then it would be inaccurate. Maybe it should be "not a mode of any more common scale"? But why are we saying this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.48.42 (talk) 12:01, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Original research?

This whole article is questionable; I've never heard this scale called the harmonic major. —Keenan Pepper 05:29, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Never heard of it? Have you ever heard of Google?

Though I have never heard of this scale it does exist:

• "The author of another harmony 'textbook' whose acquaintance Takemitsu had made more recently may also have had an influence on the materials of Coral Island. Amongst the family of scales that form the basis of Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept is the 'Lydian Diminished' [0,1,3,4,7,8,10], in effect a kind of melodic-minor scale with sharpened fourth, or major scale with flattened sixth: an inversion of the traditional 'harmonic minor' scale, it is analogously known as the 'harmonic major' in jazz theory."
  • Burt, Peter (2001). The Music of Toru Takemitsu, p.100-101. ISBN 0521782201.
• "an E harmonic major scale (because of the m3rd from C to D#). It is built on the interval sequence: 1-1/2-1 and 1/2-1/2-1-1-1-1/2, and contains the notes: A B C D# E F# G# A. Notice that this is a melodic minor scale with a raised fourth."
  • Holdsworth, Allan (1994). Just for the Curious, p.6. ISBN 0769220150.
• C harmonic major scale: C D E F G Ab B C.

• Campbell, Gary (2001). Triad Pairs for Jazz: Practice and Application for the Jazz Improviser, p.5. ISBN 0757903576.

• "...the 17th mode of the cryptophrygian harmonic major scale."
  • Green, Andrew (2004). Jazz Guitar Structures, p.6. ISBN 0970057601.
• "Eb Harmonic major (from its third mode): G Ab Bb Cb D Eb F G"
  • Willmott, Bret (1994). Mel Bays Complete Book of Harmony Theory and Voicing, p.174. ISBN 156222994X.
• "Aside from the three chord-scale systems of Ionian, melodic minor and harmonic minor, a fourth chord-scale system can be formed, its name, the harmonic major, being taken from its natural scale. The harmonic major scale is a major scale with the sixth note of the scale flattened, which means it can also be called 'Ionian b13' (Example 1) [Example one shows: C D E F G Ab B C] Unlike the three systems we have looked at before, the harmonic major chord-scale system is not well entrenched in musical history, but it can nevertheless be easily constructed by applying processes of logical deliberation. [explination follows]"
  • Haunschild, Frank (2000). Haunschild : The New Harmony Book, p.121. ISBN 3927190683.

Hyacinth 11:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (music) on flats and sharps

Flats and sharps

Use either Unicode flat (♭, ♭) and sharp (♯, ♯) symbols or the words flat and sharp. Do not use b for flat or # (the number sign) for sharp.

Like it or hate it, it's apparently policy. Gene Ward Smith 03:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Dubious

Mode of the inversion of the harmonic minor scale

Harmonic major scale on C --> Inversion of that/Fifth mode of the harmonic minor on f --> Harmonic minor on f

What is dubious about this claim? Hyacinth (talk) 23:59, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

If the note which compose the C harmonic major scale and the A harmonic minor scale here are enharmonic G# => Ab i don't think they are enharmonic scale, as we play the G in C harmonic major and avoid the A while in A harmonic minor we avoid the G and play the A... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.198.22.239 (talk) 17:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

"Enharmonic mode"

A♭ from C harmonic major = G♯ from a harmonic minor

While the term "enharmonic mode" already has meaning, what is dubious about the claim that A harmonic minor's accidental and C harmonic major's accidental are the same note? Hyacinth (talk) 23:59, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Completely agree with you two! Quintessence7 (talk) 21:35, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Additional citations

Why, what, where, and how does this article need additional citations for verification? Hyacinth (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Minor changes

1. Fixed an error, which asserted that the "whole tone plus one" scale (C-D-E-F#-G#-A#-B) had a circle of thirds. It does not, even though it is seven-note Rothenberg proper.

2. Added the fact that Rimsky Korsakov named the scale.

3. Added the fact that the scale has the "diatonic thirds" property, which is more directly relevant to the "stack of thirds" ordering than is the property of propriety.

4. Added the link to Hungarian minor, which is a mode of this scale.

5. Tried to get clearer about the ambiguity between "scale" and "mode" -- which is an issue in all of these articles. Among contemporary theorists, a "scale" is a collection of notes, ordered in a stepwise sequence; a mode has a note chosen as a tonic. When discussing the relation between harmonic major and minor, mode is not so important: every mode of the harmonic major is an inversion of some mode of the harmonic minor. So I changed this to say that the scales (a collection of notes) are related by inversion, rather than particular modes.

6. This last is an issue that could still use clarification. This article seems to refer both to the scale (the collection of notes, ordered stepwise) and to a particular mode of the scale, without clarifying the distinction. (For instance, it says that the Harmonic major scale has its own collection of modes; but it also seems to imply that the article is about a particular mode of HM). We have another article (Hungarian minor) which refers to a different mode of the same scale. This could all be clearer.

7. I think the citations tag can be removed. Princeton Music (talk) 15:51, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Diatonic Thirds Property

The article says "There are only seven such scales in equal temperament, including whole tone, hexatonic, diatonic, acoustic, harmonic minor, harmonic major, and octatonic" It would be nice if someone could either (a) create the missing article for this property and move this information there, or (b) provide standard names and/or spellings for these scales ("hexatonic", "octatonic" are too generic; "acoustic" is not a standard scale-name AFAIK), and (c) link to a source where this analysis is carried out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.48.42 (talk) 11:23, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, which to hexatonic scale does this refer? Most source I know of equate whole-tone scale and hexatonic, or just leave hexatonic as anything with a count of 6. 173.172.210.42 (talk) 10:43, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

From the description, it has to be the scale of alternating minor thirds and semitones. Double sharp (talk) 15:16, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Completely agree with you two! Quintessence7 (talk) 21:35, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Basic addition and Correction

At the beginning of the article the chords are explained/spelled,
but the Third chord is missing.. why?

It should be a iii, or iii^{7,♭9,♭11,♭13} chord
or a minor chord built on the third degree of the scale, whith the notes b2/b9 b4/b11 b6/b13 and b7 as possible decorations.

-Then more importantly..
"For example, the added accidental in C harmonic major, A♭ (shown in first image), is enharmonically equivalent to the added accidental,
G♯, in the relative harmonic minor of C major, A harmonic minor. (i.e., A harmonic minor is an "enharmonic mode" of C harmonic major. "

I'm sorry to say, but this paragraph doesn't make sense..
C Harmonic Major has the notes C D E F G Ab B,
whereas A Harmonic Minor has A B C D E Ab..

IOW, C Harm. Maj. has no A note in it,
whereas A Harm. Min. has no G note in it..

Therefore they are not and cannot be enharmonic, because they don't contain the same notes.

Ofc the notion that the actual accidental/note alteration that makes C Major become Harmonic Major,
and its relative minor A Eolian become Harmonic Minor is the same, is an entertaining idea..

But it's an untrue statement (notes are different so it's not enharmonic), and unnecessarily convoluted/relative way of seeing it,
which doesn't help ppl understand or know more the topic at hand -> Harmonic Major.

-Also this part is a bit odd:
"There are only seven such scales in equal temperament, including whole tone, hexatonic, diatonic, acoustic, harmonic minor, harmonic
major, and octatonic."

First nobody calls Lydian Dominant "the acoustic scale";
Lydian Dominant or Overtone scale are much more common denominations.

Secondly the root scale from which Lydian Dom mode is derived is actually Melodic Minor,
and that's the one that should be referenced, because obviously it also shares this property.

I would rewrite this part like this:
There's seven such scales in Equal Temperament, including Major scale, Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, Harmonic Major,
Whole Tone/hexatonic, and the two Diminished/octatonic scales.

This would be a more clear and universal way of writing it.. Quintessence7 (talk) 21:35, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Done. Burzuchius (talk) 21:24, 29 September 2021 (UTC)