Talk:Hardcore wrestling

Hardcore VS Deathmach

is it different or the same? Personally, i see it as different. Hardcore has little to no blood, where as deathmatch has tons of blood. And if it is different, i would like to see a section about it --sin-man 09:08, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

there *is* a section about it:

A Deathmatch tends to be the most severe, with a heavy emphasis on the usage of foreign objects to induce bleeding. The types of foreign objects and the nature of the foreign objects are used so as to be extremely graphic and violent in nature, with wrestlers frequently suffering major legitimate injuries. Because it is graphic in nature, it is banned in many jurisdictions, although the deathmatch style has a sizeable cult following, especially in Japan.

feel free to expand. Zzzzz 14:20, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

"Famous" hardcore wrestlers

I have removed a number wrestlers who are far from famous. Please add you reasoning before adding random wrestlers.

Please can this list of wrestlers not be added anymore, they are not known for being well known hardcore wrestlers.

• Shawn Stasiak
• Violent J
• Shaggy 2 Dope
• Ruckus
• Vampiro
• Joey Abs
• Pete Gas

Man forget all those guys.

• Necro Butcher-CZW
• Matsunaga-FMW
• Mr. Pogo-FMW
• Nick Mondo-CZW
• Zandig-CZW
• Drake Younger-CZW
• Jun Kasai-BJW
• Mad Man Pondo-Everywhere
• Thumbtack Jack-WXW
• LuFisto-CZW/NGX
• Sexxxy Eddy-CZW
• Homeless Jimmy-XPW
• And Many More

Real wrestling fans know these guys are famous. As long as you keep your head out of your ass, and watch something other than Mcmahons bullshit of a promotion. Also, ICP and Vampiro should not be on the list. ICP ran JCW, however they only wrestled a handful of time, and during that time, there were at most five highspots. Vampiro rarely ever took any high impact moves to be classified a a hardcore wrestler. Hell, Megumi Kudo is more hardcore in one match, than your entire list put together.

Abdullah the Butcher?!?! How is he not on the list of hardcore well known wrestlers? He's 71 and still blades himself! Why is he not on the list, does he not qualify or something! --86.130.252.93 (talk) 16:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Please stop removing wrestlers without justification from the list. Those listed above are all either known hardcore wrestlers (Vampiro and the ICP) or are former WWE hardcore champions. People also keep removing Ruckus even though he has been in Big Japan and CZW doing hardcore stuff for a while. This is supposed to be a list of hardcore wrestlers, not any one person's list of favorite wrestlers or the ECW fan club list or a list of Japanese guys nobody has ever heard of.

I actually qite like ICP but I don't count them as famous fardcore wrestlers, the WWE hardcore title is a joke. Lets add:

• Funaki
• Rodney
• Gerald Brisco
• Pat Patterson
• Godfathers Ho
• Molly Holly
• Billy Gunn

Your list is your problem. But if you want to remove the wrestlers other people have put on the list, thats something else. Like it or not, the WWE hardcore title is the most well-known hardcore title and you can't sweep its history under the rug to be replaced by a long list of guys and promotions nobody has ever heard of or went out of business ten years ago. Like I said, this isn't any one person's list of favorite wrestlers. It isn't even a list of famous wrestlers since someone removed that tag.

I agree in part with you, I didn't add the BJW wrestlers on the list, some of them deserve to be on there, some of them don't. I still think the hardcore title was a joke title, after the 24 hour rule was invented. I mean seriously Pete Gas and Rodney, didn't they hold the title for like 20 seconds each? I think you went up to them in the street and asked them if they were hardcore wrestlers, they would say no. Why don't we try to make a more definitive list? seperate them into different catagories like Old school hardcore, american deathmatch style, japanesse deathmatch and wwe and wcw hardcore champions. Or possibly take the most well known wrestlers for different promotions.

Why the hell did someone add an animal (a puma?!) dan severn and 2 cold scorpio.

I wouldn't even count Stasiak, Abs, or Gas are hardcore wrestlers. Softcore yes, but hardcore not at all. Ruckus probably could be considered a hardcore wrestler, but he really just participated in them...it doesn't really make him a hardcore wrestler. Think Daisuke Sekimoto in BJW, he's not a deathmatch wrestler, but he may participate in them. While in BJW, Ruckus didn't really participate in deathmatches either, BJW matches just tend to turn into street fights. Swiftdullah 16:07, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

_ Instead of famous section, make some sort of a ,,Most recognized Hardcore wrestlers, for example:

• Terry Funk
• Mick Foley
• Sabu
• Mad Man Pondo
• Tommy Dreamer
• The Sandman

etc.

"Common" weapons

Maybe I missed something, but I don't think lobsters or pistols are common weapons in hardcore matches.

Also, I think maybe there should be a different section for weapons that are really only seen in Japanese deathmatches (scorpions, pirhanas).

I'll wait a few days for someone to dispute me before I change it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.225.94.94 (talk) 08:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

i agree mate, this page really needs a clean up. - paulo

I agree- It should be shortened to ten items at the most. And barbed wire's down twice.

I would like to see some more elaboration, maybe a link or a separate page, for the especially strange weapons. I can't see a mention of live piranhas without wanting some details. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.83.96.251 (talk) 10:22, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Link Change

This page is locked so I can't change the link, but the "foreign object" link should be "Foreign object (professional wrestling)|foreign object". See: foreign object. So if someone could kindly change it, that would be great. Nikki311 03:08, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Garbage wrestling

These are examples of garbage wrestling (the term) being used in a non-negative way. Garbage wrestling didn't start out as a negative term and is not an exclusively negative term even today.

This is a usage of Garbage wrestling by the wife of Alex Rizzo (big dick dudley). This is a non-negative use of the term garbage wrestling by people in the industry.

"Electra (Donna Adamo) gave the Torch a career bio on him. He left ECW after "a falling out" with Paul Heyman and worked in XPW, where he also trained guys. "He wasn't Chris Benoit in the ring, but he knew garbage wrestling," she said. After XPW he went back east and wrestled in Boston. A year ago he was in a serious motorcycle accident; Electra says he actually died but the doctors were able to bring him back. Then 6 months ago he was in another accident that left him with a broken neck."

This is a use from the site Slam! wrestling [1]

"Awesome has competed primarily in Japan's FMW promotion under the name G The Gladiator. He has been engaged in a longstanding feud with Masato Tanaka. The two have had some bitter brawls, taking the level of Japanese garbage wrestling to new heights."

That hardly seems like a negative term used there.

From a customer review of ECW: one night stand [2]

"This match is the best when it comes to straight-up garbage wrestling. Alot of weapons, blood, and violence!!"

From http://encycl.opentopia.com/term/Terry_Funk

Later in Funk's career, his style changed from wrestling traditional southern style wrestling matches to the more demanding and brutal style of garbage wrestling. As a result, Funk started to gain a new fanbase of fans who loved his hardcore style and brawling.

12.96.162.45 17:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

edits to this article

I do not appriciate my edits from the article being removed. I further think it is completely out of line to leave insulting messages on my page suggesting that I am "experimenting" by making edits to this article. As has come up before, it is improper for editors of this article to apply their own arbitrary personal standards in determining which wrestlers should be included or excluded by name in this article. It is also improper to demand that certain information be sourced while other information in the article is not held to the same standards. I will remind you that you should be assuming good faith and engaging in a civil manner. These are far from the first edits I have made to this article.

These are two justifications for information you have removed. If you are going to remove them again, you need to explain why and then explain what the exact standard is for inclusion in the lists in the article.

Dusty Rhodes - Dusty Rhodes has wrestled the style for years. He worked in the old ECW.

The Rude Boy - JCW.

12.96.162.45 18:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Simply wrestling in ECW does not make someone a hardcore wrestler. Please cite a reliable source. WP:V is a non-negotiable policy. Articles are written from sources, not from memory. Thanks. One Night In Hackney 18:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Please be reasonable. If you wish to make drasting changes to this article, I would first ask that all edits to the article stop so that this can be discussed. We need to come to consensus on what exactly constitutes WP:V for a hardcore wrestler or now apparently a hardcore promotion. WP:V is not a licence for arbirary behavior. I would ask yet one more time that you stop editing and engaging in a discussion on this. 12.96.162.45 18:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I am being perfectly reasonable. I am asking you to comply with Wikipedia policy. You are consistently ignoring Wikipedia policy by restoring unsourced information. I have asked you repeatedly to cite sources, and you have ignored this. Regards. One Night In Hackney 18:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I am asking you to discuss the matter rather than engage in an edit war. I am asking you to mutually discuss what the standard is for the list to meet WP:V. I have given you two examples which you have rejected and am asking you to discuss what the standard is so that we can come to a mutual understanding of it. Accusing me of "consistently ignoring Wikipedia policy by restoring unsourced information" is not civil and not helpful. In order to meet your request, I need to know what standard you are applying and am asking for a short amount of time to try and meet that standard. The heart of Wikipedia is working together to improve these articles. I'm asking you one more time to help do that. 12.96.162.45 18:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, I haven't rejected anything as you have not provided a standard. You said "Dusty Rhodes - Dusty Rhodes has wrestled the style for years. He worked in the old ECW" and "The Rude Boy - JCW". That is not citing a source, please see WP:RS and WP:CITE. I have no objections to anything I have removed being added back to the article if it is properly cited. One Night In Hackney 19:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

You are showing me no respect at all. I ask for discussion and you cite policy. I add a new section to the discussion asking for your (or anyone else's input) and you write this saying that I have not provided a standard. I used simple examples because I hoped that you had some degree of expertise in this subject and I was hoping to get an impression of what you views are. First you say working in ECW is not proof and now you say its not proof because I didn't provide a Wiki citation to a source as proof. Which is it? 12.96.162.45 19:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, please see WP:V, WP:RS and WP:CITE. As I have repeatedly explained earlier, we don't write articles from memory, we write them from sources. We don't decide which wrestlers are hardcore, we note which wrestlers have been desribed as hardcore by reliable sources. Discussion is frivolous if you persist in ignoring this. One Night In Hackney 19:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest you read what I have said rather than build straw men to knock over. The complexity of the issue is in what "describe as hardcore" actually means. There are direct descriptions such as calling someone hardcore. But there are also indirect descriptions such as holding a hardcore title or working in an exclusively hardcore promotion. As anyone who has edited these articles can tell you, there is no mechanical process here. What one person might consider a description of a wrestler as hardcore by reliable sources, another might not. See the examples in this paragraph. Constant quotation of obvious policy that we both know has resulting in pages of writing over what amounts to a simple problem. If you just engage in a reasonable discussion and leave the obnoxious policy quoting and accusations at the door, this can be quickly resolved. 12.96.162.45 19:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Sigh! Instead of carrying on from your indefensible position, why don't you just find the sources like I suggested over an hour ago. We don't write articles from opinion or memory, we write them from sources. The simple problem can be resolved by you finding the sources, I cannot resolve it for you. There is nothing left to discuss, I can't make it much clearer. One Night In Hackney 19:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Sigh! Instand of trying to get the last word in, why don't you put your time into the dicussion going on in the other section of the article that I started. You do know that its there don't you. Its the next section down the page where sources and standards are being discused. Or are you too busy filling up my talk page with more useless citations of obvious policies? 12.96.162.45 19:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

definition of hardcore wrestler for this article

As there is disagreement about inclusion in the list of hardcore wrestlers in this article, we need to come up with a standard for what constitutes proof of being a hardcore wrestler. I would suggest that the standard should be. I would suggest the standard should be:

- Being in a wrestling promotion focused on hardcore wrestling

- Holding a title identified as a hardcore or hardcore style title. Hardcore style would imply that any title not specifically called hardcore, but whose rules allowed hardcore elements is acceptable.

- Being identified by a notiable source or self-identifying as a hardcore wrestler

Question 1: Lets say a wrestler held a "brass knuckles" title. Is a brass knuckles title a hardcore title? And is a wrestler who holds that title (for example) on two occasions a hardcore wrestler?

12.96.162.45 18:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no disagreement, only your failure to follow Wikipedia policies. A wrestler can be described as a hardcore wrestler if he has been described as one by a reliable source, or if he was held a title specifically recognised as a hardcore or deathmatch title that can be verified from a reliable source. One Night In Hackney 19:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Dusty Rhodes held the NWA texas brass knukles title on two different occasions. That title was eventually renamed the NWA texas hardcore title. See [www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/profiles/d/dusty-rhodes.html] for the details of the title reign. Either tell me that this is good enough or explain why I have not met the standard you have set above. 12.96.162.45 19:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

That's probably a bad example to use - Dusty was known for a heck of a lot more than Hardcore wrestling. It would be like saying Ric Flair's a tag-team wrestler because he held the Tag Titles with Batista. --Dave. 19:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source that states a brass knuckles match in 1970 is remotely like the wrestling described in the article? Have you seen a Dusty Rhodes brass knuckles match from 1970? To the best of my knowledge no such footage exists, or has long since been lost. I really don't see why we're engaged in this lengthy discussion over Dusty, who really isn't a hardcore wrestler. It's like saying Tenryu is hardcore as he's occasionally competed in explosion and barbed wire matches. One Night In Hackney 19:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

A brass kunckles match involves two men being given weapons which are otherwise illegal and conducting a brutal wrestling match which involves violence and blood. If you are suggesting that a brass knuckles match is not a hardcore match, please explain your reasoning. I know of no change in the how the match is worked that has occured since 1970. FMW, a pure hardcore promotion if there ever was one, had a brass knuckles title in which hardcore wrestlers participated. In suggesting that video/film footage must be part of any citation, you seem to be going beyond any sort of reasonable policy. And to explain it to you, I'm using Dusty Rhodes as an example to try to get consensus. By using him, I've apparently determined that you are going to require film clips as citations. Thats the whole purpose of discussion.

As far as the rest goes, if we drop titles and promotions as being acceptable citations for hardcore wrestlers, we are going to be left with direct quotes from reliable sources that describe an individual as a hardcore wrestler. If thats what everyone wants, I'm willing to consider it. But if you want that, I'm going to ask that someone provide the citations for every single wrestler on the list that meet that same high standard.12.96.162.45 19:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

"A brass kunckles match involves two men being given weapons which are otherwise illegal and conducting a brutal wrestling match which involves violence and blood" - says who? The entire article is unsourced. That seems to be your definition, and therefore original research. I never suggested video must be included in any citation, I inquired whether you had seen a Dusty Rhodes brass knuckle match from 1970. By your reply it's safe to assume you haven't, so please explain exactly how you know such a match from 1970 is as you described? For the last time, please cite sources. Articles are supposed to be written from sources, so please, please cite them. If you wish to remove further wrestlers and promotions feel free to do so. One Night In Hackney 20:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[3]. The words "bloody brawl" are in the first sentence. The article concerns texas and is conteporary in references to 1970. I imagine it will not be good enough for your because it is not filmed or eyewitness proof that a dusty rhodes match in that era wasn't somehow different. I did not see matches in 1970, but I have seen brass knuckles matches for several decades starting in the late 1970s and I'm not aware of them changing. Any personal memories from me concerning this would be as most certainly know not a valid citation anyway and I don't know why you are asking for personal information when you know we can't use it. I get the impression that you are playing a game here and I'm getting tired of playing it. You crossed the line with the "troll" accusation on your talk page. Your playing games with policy here and if going out and finding a source for what a brass knuckles match in texas in the late-1960s/early1970s doesn't end up being good enough, I'll go take the obvious next step. 12.96.162.45 20:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The word Amarillo also appears in the first sentence, Dusty Rhodes was a (one-time, for the record) brass knuckles champion in Florida, not Texas. Dusty held the title for less than three weeks, as he was stripped of the belt and Tarzan Tyler won the title on 22 December. So I fail to see how competing in an unknown number of matches (possibly just one) makes someone a hardcore wrestler, even assuming you can find a citation regarding brass knuckles matches in Florida. Your behaviour is clearly disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, as you have wasted a vast amount of time arguing over a single wrestler, and I can see no real benefit of actually having him on the list. Your criteria for determining who is a hardcore wrestler is completely abritrary and original research, therefore I suggest you find a citation from a reliable source stating any wrestler you wish to add to the list is a hardcore wrestler. Good day to you. One Night In Hackney 20:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

See [4]. See the Dusty Rhodes Wiki article. 2-time texas brass knuckles champion. You are abusive, impossible to deal with in a rational manner and you are factually wrong. Your accusation disrupting Wikipedia to make a point is factually wrong. I have stated clearly previously in this section that I was using Dusty Rhodes as an example to try to get an consensus on what the rules were. Discussion is impossible with you. Any accusations you choose to make or factual erros will be responded to but there is nothing else to discuss. 12.96.162.45 21:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Now let's see what you originally said shall we? Dusty Rhodes held the NWA texas brass knukles title on two different occasions. That title was eventually renamed the NWA texas hardcore title. See [www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/profiles/d/dusty-rhodes.html]? If you check the source you provided it clearly states the only brass knuckles title he won was NWA Brass Knuckles title defeating Jose Lothario (December 1, 1970). So is it my fault for relying on the source that you provided? I don't think so. This whole debacle has arisen because of your failure to follow Wikipedia guidelines and policies, attempting to blame me is simply failing to admit to your own mistakes. One Night In Hackney 22:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Can we get back to the question? I'd like to posit that wrestlers included in this list should either be primarily known for Hardcore wrestling of some sort (e.g. New Jack, Mike Lockwood), or have had significant Hardcore wrestling involvement throughout their careers even if they've gone on to bigger things (e.g. Mick Foley, Terry Funk, the Dudleys). Clearly this would exclude the likes of Dusty Rhodes, Test or Tazz, but I think it would be a good dividing line. Thoughts? --Dave. 21:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather say that any wrestler in a hardcore promotion (ECW, FMW) is a hardcore wrestler. Beyond that, anyone who held a hardcore title is a hardcore wrestler and anyone described by a reliable source as a hardcore wrestler is a hardcore wrestler. 12.96.162.45 21:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

That would rather extend the list: it would then include the likes of Lance Storm, Chris Jericho, Rey Misterio, Steve Austin, Tony Mamaluke, Dean Malenko and Eddie Guerrero, none of whom I would have thought would be considered Hardcore wrestlers (at least not without making the term more or less meaningless, in my opinion). I don't think that necessarily works, hence my caveats above... I'm willing to be persuaded though. --Dave. 21:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I realize it doesn't work perfectly but I'm not sure how to determine "primarily known for Hardcore" either. post-injury Steve Austin (and ECW Steve Austin) isn't an easy case. The others more or less are (except for Tony Mamaluke maybe). The problem I'm trying to solve is that there are non-WWE/TNA wrestlers in smaller feds who are hardcore wrestlers working in hardcore promotions. I would rather say that everyone in JCW is a hardcore wrestler than get requests for citations where I have to find some obscure match report where the word hardcore is used. If we apply a loose standard and settle disputes in the discussion, I can accept that. But if a hard standard is applied and everything else gets automatically deleted on sight, your standard doesn't draw a clear enough line. 12.96.162.45 21:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

title and promotion information restored with citations

I've gone to a great deal of work putting citations in for material that was removed today regarding hardcore titles and hardcore promotions. If anyone disputes the citations, please discuss before removing any entires. I would also encourage anyone with time to work on additional citations. 12.96.162.45 21:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

matches

their should be apart on the page that lists hardcore matches —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhauth11 (talk • contribs) 05:17, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

There has been millions of hardcore matches. How can they all be listed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sithboy7 (talk • contribs) 00:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

well add the most coman types and some more know matchs then more less known matches --121.220.26.209 (talk) 00:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Criticism section

I think having a Criticism section at the bottom of the article is suitable considering top wrestling stars like Ric Flair and Giant Baba have notably ridiculed it. I wrote one myself that has since been removed, but I think a more condensed one would make sense. If no one has an argument toward this, I'll probably resurrect my old writing for this article and trim it down. Cale (talk) 21:10, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Ultraviolent wrestling

Please, make a section of ultraviolent wrestling. It isn't the same thing as hardcore.--109.170.14.101 (talk) 10:05, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is...^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 11:44, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

It is not. The difference is in used weapons. You will never see a lighttube, glass, a syringe or a razorblade used in a hardcore match. --109.170.14.101 (talk) 12:53, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

It's the same thing to a degree. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 21:45, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Partially. If you will look at this only as ,,Wrestling with weapons. But i still think that ultraviolent deserves a separate section.--109.170.14.101 (talk) 09:24, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

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