Talk:Half-elf

Tales of

Just a note: Phantasia is not the sequel to Symphonia in the strictest sense - as it came before. Symphonia can be considered a prequel though. jptdrake 04:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Original name

It would be nice if someone provided the original Old Norse word for Half-elf. --Arny 10:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Half-elf/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

As of the time of this writing, there is a brief explanation of what an Half-Elf is, a couple of examples from Norse mythology, and a list of appearances in modern popular culture. 84.80.20.172 (talk) 19:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 19:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 17:00, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Word salad

I am trying to parse the last sentence of the lede. This is the best I could come up with, but it still makes no sense to me:

Scholars have considered

• the meaning of
  • the choices made by Lúthien and Arwen,
    • combining love and death,
    • family loyalty,
    • immortality,
    • fate, and
    • faith
• that
  • through letting go,
    • the light can be reached,
  • whereas holding on,
    • while natural,
    • is actually folly.

jnestorius^(talk) 09:38, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Split sentence. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:56, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

If it's just one opinion, it's better left to the body of the text where it can be quoted in full, rather than attempting a summary in the lede which might be OR and/or rely on context not yet mentioned to make sense. I've also rephrased the first sentence. jnestorius^(talk) 06:11, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

No, there are multiple scholars who touch on these themes, and Flieger is widely seen as foremost, so the recent edit is misguided and needlessly destructive. I'll rewrite the paragraph. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:29, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

The points are actually made and cited to multiple scholars in the article; and the key points were first made by Tolkien himself. I've had another go at summarizing the essence of the scholarly work, which indeed is the essence of the half-elven. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:45, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Much better, thanks! jnestorius^(talk) 17:22, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Half-elf/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:38, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Okay I'll take a look, make straightforward copyedits as I go and jot notes below....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:38, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

• Odd split - Myth vs Tolkien vs Dunsany/RPGs - I understand the rationale given the theme. I think there must be more material out there and this can be rejigged.
  • If the D&D material can be extended then of course it may deserve a section. The brief Dunsany mention could then go into 'Origins'.

• Okay, I think we have a weighting issue but not sure what reliable sources tehre are to back up the RPG stuff. Yes the Half-elf (Dungeons & Dragons) is in a sorry state, but half elves have been a popular theme for 5 editions and over 40 years in teh game. I think they warrant more than one line. In fact I think the articles should be merged but others would disagree and it is beyond the scope of this GAN.
  • Games are always difficult to source reliably; given Wikipedia's rules, all the places gamers write are pretty much unusable, and that's if any of them feel like editing Wikipedia anyway. The sources in the D&D article would be ok with page numbers..... If you come across anything usable, feel free just to add it to the article, or else put it here. I have no objection to doing a merge if there are page-numbered books or decent online sources. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:58, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
    • I recall now that I searched both on Scholar and plain Google and drew a blank when editing the article. My Google search went something like this: Google for half-decent half-elf sources and it comes about as close to a Googlewhack (0 hits) as makes no difference... I've just had another look and it's not a lot better. "half-elven" does a little better but I've still not located anything much to add ("there are elf variants in D&D 3.5", hmm, no). Chiswick Chap (talk)
      • I suspected you'd looked and feared an answer like this. Need to think about how to look....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:06, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
        • I've slept on it. I think that the article is correctly written but that its title may perhaps need "(Tolkien)" added to it — or perhaps not. Here's why. The D&D article's all-primary sourcing and the lack of any sign of reliable secondary sources through search does rather suggest that the D&D half-elf isn't actually notable. That article could therefore be deleted or merged, either to D&D or to here. However it consists of exactly two things: statements that "The half-elf appeared as a character race in the N^th edition Player's Handbook [and in supplemental sourcebook XYZ]"; and a completely unsourced 'Description': not much of use there.
        • There is one other thing: Tanis Half-Elven. That article, despite its 24 unsourced paragraphs in 6 wholly-unsourced sections, does contain a 'Reception' section with 4 sources that are at least somewhat secondary (3 of them are in the io9 franchise, so not Gygax/D&D directly). We could use those to say a little about Tanis Half-Elven to balance out this article.
        • Then the question remains: is this article the parent of Half-elf (Dungeons & Dragons) (if that article survives), in which case it is already correctly-named? If it isn't, even after the addition of the Tanis Half-Elven material, then it's effectively Half-elf (Tolkien), and the question is, is it clearly the default for the 'half-elf' topic — in which case it is already correctly-named. Otherwise, we can rename the article when this GAN has finished. Obviously, if we can make it sufficiently detailed to be the parent then there's no issue. I'll have a go at adding something now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:47, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
          • I've added a D&D section, mainly about Tanis Half-Elven; have moved Dunsany up to 'Origins'; and have extended the lead slightly to reflect this. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:00, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
            • I think it is of more value to have this as a global rather than tolkien article Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:32, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
              • Casliber: Well we're certainly close to that now. I've added a summary of Lord Dunsany and given him his own section. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:02, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Status query

Casliber, Chiswick Chap, where does this nomination stand? It's been a month since the article was last edited, and the belated attempt at a ping just above this section wouldn't have worked (pings have to made in the same edit as a new sig, which didn't happen above). Thank you very much. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:13, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm awaiting input. Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:08, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh crap sorry. I feel there must be other mateial that eludes common search terms...but it's so far (not surprisingly) eluded me. I'll get to this in the next few days. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:15, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

• Okay - are Skuld and Högni's attributes discussed anywhere? My vague recollection is that they essentially pass for human, but does any source discuss this...?

Direct search yields nothing usable. However, it seems you are right, as both the sagas and modern scholars take that for granted, so it's hard to say anything on that directly. Both Skuld and Högni are however described as evil or demonic; scholars see that as fitting in easily enough with being elvish, but I've seen no specific discussion of their half-elven nature. I've added a couple of sources which help to situate this, at least. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:01, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

1. Well written?:

Prose quality:

Manual of Style compliance:

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:

References to sources:

Citations to reliable sources, where required:

No original research:

3. Broad in coverage?:

Major aspects:

Focused:

4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:

Fair representation without bias:

5. Reasonably stable?

No edit wars, etc. (Vandalism does not count against GA):

6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:

Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

Overall:

Pass or Fail: fine for GA-hood now. Best that can be done with (reliable) sources avaiable Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:03, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks! Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:52, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Dior

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but at the time of his conception, both his mother and father were fully mortal, and therefore he was, no? Any discussion of his Elvish and Maiarin blood and consequent "half-mortality" (or really any sort of half-elvishness) must thus be rather confusing and/or distracting for the average reader? AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:51, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, but no, Luthien was an elf, whatever her changing mortality status. We can here only report on what Tolkien and scholars have written: any further reasoning is original research and we can't have that in articles or on talk pages. There are plenty of forums where you can discuss such matters. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:24, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Christopher Tolkien, The Lost Road and Other Writings: "It is to be observed that according to the judgement of Manwe Dior Thingol's Heir, son of Beren, was mortal irrespective of the choice of his mother." Thoughts? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 03:03, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

That is a reliable source (if you have the page number and edition), and it can be cited in the article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

For your convenience: note #9, pp.334-5 of the 1987 Unwin Hallen edition. Not incidentally to the topic, the note is for this passage, on pp.326-7:

Then Manwe gave judgement and he said: 'To Earendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Earendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given tome. This is my decree: to Earendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'

Many thanks. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:55, 19 May 2022 (UTC)