Talk:Hagar/Archive 1
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untitled comments
This entry is a mess and needs to be cleaned up by someone who is capable of writing an encyclopedia article, please.
Can we say that the text 'avoids praise' of the marriage? Isn't that projecting an unproven intention onto the text. Wouldn't simply saying that it doesn't praise the marriage make more sense?
- Agreed. Now changed. ntennis 08:50, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Image
This Gutenberg text has a picture we may be able to use. Someone else can get it if I forget in the future. gren グレン 14:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Renaming
I believe this article should be renamed to indicate that Hagar is as much a part of Qur'anic heritage is she is Biblical. Therefore, I propose Hagar (Bible, Qur'an) or something similar.--AladdinSE 20:19, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
- How about Hagar (Abrahamic religions)? Yes, you're right, it needs to be renamed, and have three sections on Hagar as seen by Jews, Christians, and Muslims. I think the procedure is to put up a template suggesting a move and wait for comments before moving. Zora 20:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Abrahamic Faiths, or Religions, work for me.--AladdinSE 07:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
That sounds fine, but could someone please clarify her status in Abraham's family. I believe that many Muslims consider her to be his wife (not sure if the Quran supports that or not) while Jews (and Christians?) consider her to have been only a handmaiden (who was asked to carry Abraham's child). But I am obviously not very sure of myself and it would really help if someone could find that out. 198.111.183.2 21:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, lets be realistic here. Just how many Hagars are there? Why not just title the page Hagar? Regards, David Lauder 21:59, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Hagar in Islam
I can't really remember whether Hagar or Hajar is considered to be a maidservant or wife to Abraham but I guess it a little bit of both. A maidservant or "lesser" wife or concubine.Anyway, In Islam, Hagar is believed to be an Egyptian Princess given by the Pharaoh as a maidservant to Abraham. Some Jewish scholars, as this link, just to name one(http://www.torah.org/learning/rabbis-notebook/5762/vayera.html) suggests, also believe that Hagar was a Princess given to Abraham by the Pharaoh. 210.19.57.10 07:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Hagar or Hajjar was in fact Abrahams wife, NOT his concubine. Genesis 16:3 (KJV) positively states that " And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife." It does not even state "as or like his wife" but rather gives the definitive "to BE his wife". Abraham had three wives according to the Torah, Sarah, Hajjar and Keturah. Royalbengal100 (talk) 16:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Hagar's father?
Was Hagar the daughter of the Pharaoh that Abraham and Sarah first visited in Egypt? The page on Sarah says "Pharaoh ... sent his own daughter, Hagar, to be a handmaid to Sarai." If this is the case, shouldn't this be mentioned on the main Hagar page? I'm no theologian, just reading here and there and came across this discrepancy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.43.243.178 (talk) 11:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC).
Hagar in Arab origins, Islam and Hajj
This article is titled "Hagar (bible)". The title implies that it is talking of the Judeo-Christian Hagar. However, the article contains a section on the Islamic perspectives on Hagar. Thus a better title would be "Hagar (religion)". Or we could split off the Islamic perspectives to a seperate article.Vice regent 16:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- How about Hagar (scripture)? Or would that be taken to mean Judaism? Islam aside, I can't see why this article iis called Hagar (Bible) rather than Hagar (Torah).Proabivouac 04:25, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
HAGAR AND LAHI RU'I
If the Old Testament is the base for historical events, then Arabia is the bedrock of history and Abraham is the father of this history. Abraham established History in his moves and migration from Nejd to Hidjaz. The city of Ryadh is founded on the remains of the ancient city of Hagar, once a rich agricultural capital. That is where Hagar found her famous "well" Al-Hayir, wrongly pronounced and written in Modern Hebrew as being the Well of Lahi-Ru'i. The current interpretation of this name Lahi-Ru'i is that Hagar called it this way because she saw in her dream (vision) a sign of life. If we think it over we find that there is no relation between the vision and the life, but the Hayir fountains south of Hagar (the actual Riyadh in Nejd). Or perhaps the name Hayir as the name of the fountains 12 km south of Riyadh comes from the old Arabic meaning the vision and the life. However, the story seems to be a famous epic of the old tribes of Arabia, who carried the Abrahamic tradition from Nejd to Hidjaz where it got established in the new country of Abraham. That is what explains why the "final" story found grounds in the area which was going to be named Bethel (Later named Makkah because of the Grand Rabbi Micah). Bethel means the House of God because Abraham built an Altar for the supreme God over there. According to the Arabian tradition Abraham built the Altar with the Help of Ismael his son which means the entire Hagar tribe migrated with him to this new country. Abraham had to leave Hagar and her son in that area and migrate south on the Road of Shor (Jabal Thawr south of Mecca), otherwise why should Hagar "run" between the Safat and the Marwah if Abraham stayed with them? Again I propose that the term Lahi Ru'i be read in Arabic: Al-Hayir. Noureddine 11:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Unencylopedic?
This seems a bit off:
It is important to note that while non-Hebrew speakers accept the canard that they were expelled into the desert, those who read and/or speak Hebrew know that the Hebrew word used here – "meed'bar" – means both "desert" and "wilderness." Since a wilderness so often has water and game animals in it, it is wrong to assume that sending them there was, prima facie, a deadly act – especially because the same bible that tells of Ishmael's expulsion also tells of Abraham's love for him.
"Canard"? "It is wrong to assume?" That's very strong, and the whole passage seems to be unsubstantiated interpretation. I'm hesitant to change it, though, since I have no idea what I'm talking about. Lady~Macbeth (talk) 01:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes. That whole paragraph was added by user:The Levi in July. The previous sentence is also unacceptable, since there is nothing in the Bible about Ishmael mocking anyone. Paul B (talk) 08:34, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
EGYPT AND THE MISRIM CONFUSION
The biggest confusion about the biblical stories appears to be the term: Egypt. In the Hebrew Bible there is no such a term as EGYPT. This is an English translation corrupting and deforming the term Misrim. Hagar was a Misraia. There is no evidence to proove that Misrim is the Nile valley country. In the actual Egypt the term Misr refers to the city of Cairo founded circa 986 AD, the analogy being imported from Arabia where the "Misr" is the flat vast country. Prior to 986 AD there was no Misr in Egypt. The Bible mentions the country of Misrim where a certain King (or tribe) by the name Faraon used to persecute the people of Israel. The story of Hagar precedes the Birth of Israel and still the story tells about the Misrim country. The controversy continues because denial is the weapon of those who refuse to admit that Arabia is the hot bed of the Bible stories. Abrham's footsteps should be traced to Arabia rather than the Nile Valley or Houran, north of Syria. The facts are there still witnessing names and routes approving the Bible stories with a precise description.
--Noureddine (talk) 22:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
- [citation needed] ناهد/(Nåhed) speak! 23:37, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Error...
In the first section this articles states that the story of Hagar in Islam can be found in the Qur'an. This is not true. The Qur'an does not mention Hagar a single time. Davinmarie (talk) 21:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)