Talk:HSwMS Oscar II/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs) 03:46, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

G'day Simongraham, is this your first Swedish ship at GAN? I don't remember having seen one of yours before. I have a few suggestions and comments for you:

• expand the lead so it is a better summary of the body. For example, I suggest putting the main battery, max belt thickness and top speed in the lead, along with a sentence each on her early service history and WWI service including mentioning the Invasion of Åland.
• Suggest a bit of a restructure/reordering, as follows: Consolidate the sections and subsections into two sections, "Design" and "Service history" (this is pretty much the gold standard for ship articles, with subsections where necessary (not necessary here given the amount of material involved, see French cruiser Troude for an example of a similarly-sized ship article with just the two sections). The single para subsections break up the flow. Make the current Construction#Background section the first para of the Design section (as this is chronologically where it fits), inserting "Oscar II was designed as a modernised and slightly larger version of the Äran class." after "the Naval Secretary". Then follow this with the rest of the current Design section, dropping the subsection headings. Then start the Service history section with the content of the Construction#Launch subsection, and follow with the rest of the contents, again dropping the subsection headings. Obviously happy to discuss this, but will just pause the review here while we sort it out.

Paused for a bit, see above. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:31, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your really helpful comments. This is my first GAN so I really appreciate you taking the time. I have made edits which I hope follow your very useful suggestions. I look forward to further responses. simongraham (talk) 23:42, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

No worries, I've reviewed quite a few warship GANs by two of Milhist's most prolific and expert warship article writers Sturmvogel 66 and Parsecboy, and have got every class and ship of the Royal Yugoslav Navy to GA at least myself so hopefully my suggestions will be improvements. It is great to see someone working on Swedish ships, they are quite under-represented in GA and above articles (we only have six Swedish ship GAs from a navy that is 500 years old, compared to 103 Austro-Hungarian ones from a navy that only existed for 130 years...). If you ever have questions about ship articles, the two editors I've linked above would be happy to help you, as would I. You'd also be very welcome if you wanted to join Milhist, you can do so here. Back to this article:

Lead

• link main battery, flagship and Hulk (ship type)
• suggest using the commissioning rather than launching date in the lead and link ship commissioning
• for neutral Sweden suggest linking Sweden during World War II

Body

• not sure about the initial capital on Archipelago on "Swedish Archipelago" there is no article to link to that I can find which might confirm it as a proper name
• "The commission proposed three solutions:" needs a citation that covers the table, I find putting it immediately after the colon works best
• in the table, suggest using commas to subdivide large numbers rather than spaces, and instead of x use × (which is available in the Wiki markup option in the edit screen). I have adjusted the first line for you
• in the table, convert the calibre of the main guns on the first line (as you've done in the lead), also knots in the first line with lk=in to link knots, and for the costs of the first solution use {{SEK|7762000|link=yes}} which produces 7,762,000 kr, and adjust the second and third ones to match, and the final one in the last para of the article
• for Swedish parliament, link Riksdag
• "Äran-class coastal defence ships" and link coastal defence ship
• for the first displacement figure, add lk=on to link both long tons and tons in the conversion
• we don't start sentences with arabic numerals per MOS:NUMNOTES, so suggest "She was 95.6 m (314 ft) long"
• to get rid of the 0 inches in the draught conversion, change from ftin to ft and add |sigfig=2 to the conversion (same in the infobox)
• link Naval rating
• "A command staff of nine officers could also be carried" doesn't correlate to "9 flag officers" in the infobox. A flag officer is a naval officer of at least commodore (often rear admiral, depending on the country) rank. If operating as a flagship, the nine would have included officers of various ranks to support the flag officer aboard. In the infobox suggest "Complement: 326 (335 as a flagship)"
• link Compound steam engine#Multiple expansion engines
• you could link propeller
• suggest "by ten water tube marine boilers of the Yarrow design"→"by ten Yarrow water-tube marine boilers"
• "She carried 500 long tons (510 t) of coal"
• {3,550
• drop the |km/h from the range speeds to get mi as well
• link nmi via |lk=in, and drop the |km to get mi as well
• suggest "The main battery of Oscar II consisted of a pair of Bofors 210 mm (8.3 in) K/44 M1898 guns mounted in individual turrets fore and aft on the Glossary of nautical terms#C|centreline]]. Designed in 1898, they were similar to the guns mounted in the earlier Äran class. The guns fired 276 lb (125 kg) shells at a muzzle velocity of 750 m (2,460 ft) per second and a rate of fire of two shells per minute.[9] Each gun was mounted singly on the centreline, one forward and the other aft." and add a citation for the centreline bit, if not in the existing citation.
• "on the armoured cruiser Fylgia", and put the mounting locs ahead of the characteristics of the ammo

More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:55, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

• the body doesn't say how many 152 mm guns were fitted, also suggest "10 × twin 152 mm (6 in) Bofors M/03 guns" in the infobox
• any idea where the TTs were located?
• midships→amidships
• suggest "provided by Schneider-Creusot. It was 150 mm (5.9 in) thick amidships..."
• abaft should only be used relative to another object, eg "abaft the conning tower", perhaps "aft" would be better in this instance?
• link Armored citadel
• once you've done a conversion of a measurement, you don't need to repeat it, ie 57 mm, 100 mm
• four 8 mm (0.3 in) M/36 machine guns and link

More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

• "The ship was to be launched by its namesake King Oscar II"
• "Oscar II entered service as the flagship"
• if I recall correctly, there is a link for "flying the flag", but I can't find it. Parsecboy will know. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:57, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
  • I think wikt:show the flag is what you're looking for. Parsecboy (talk) 09:12, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
• "the King"→"the king"
• "gun towerturret"
• say what countries the royalty were from
• "Oscar II carried the king and [[Victoria of Baden|Queen Victoria]] to Finland"
• link Mobilization
• "or the king's visit"
• for "the country's neutral position" link Sweden during World War I
• "the German dreadnought battleships Rheinland and Westfalen" and link
• for decommissioned link Ship commissioning#Ship decommissioning
• "When Oscar II was brought back into service" when was this?
• "and it is in this role that she visited Portsmouth in 1935"
• for "Sweden remained neutral" link Sweden during World War II
• for "scrapped" link Ship breaking
• all multiple page footnotes should be pp. not p.
• for Jane's Fighting Ships of World War I link Jane's Fighting Ships
• translate the Swedish source titles using |trans-title=
• Books on Demand is a WP:SPS publisher, and I don't think anything published by them can be considered reliable
• Pettibone is also a bit dodgy
• the rest of the sources look ok
• the link to the the Naval Museum of Sweden for File:HMS Oscar II 2.JPG doesn't work, the image also needs a US-PD tag
• more info is needed about the original source of File:Oscar II armour & armament.JPG and its publication
• the link to the the Naval Museum of Sweden for File:Oscar II during WW2.jpg doesn't work, the image also needs a US-PD tag

That's it. A fair bit to do, but hopefully the outcome will be a significantly improved article that could be nominated for WP:MHR. Placing on hold for the above to be addressed. Well done thus far. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:57, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

A thousand thank yous. This is really helpful. It would be an unexpected and even greater honour if we could raise this article to be able to be nominated for WP:MHR. I have tried to address everything, but please tell me if there is anything else needed. simongraham (talk) 22:49, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

No worries, I've done some minor tweaking. The prose, MOS and source issues have been addressed, but the image issues still need to be resolved. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I am sorry, I don't understand how to affect the image issues. simongraham (talk) 01:55, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

No worries, I found it one of the hardest areas of WP to get the hang of, and frankly one of the most frustrating... I'll walk you through it. First up, we need a link to a current web page that shows the first and third pics. And we need some more information about the publication of the second one (the diagram). In that case, it appears that it may have been published in a source called Nordisk familjebok, which appears to be some sort of Swedish encyclopedia. We need to know the earliest edition it which the diagram was published. The good thing is that, according to that article, it has been fully digitised and is available via Project Runeberg at Linköping University. Once you've found the answers to these questions, I'll move on to next steps. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:00, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. The two images in the Marinmuseum are available online, [The Swedish coastal defence ship HMS Oscar II][[1]] and [Oscar II in World War II][[2]]. The other is indeed in the Nordisk Familjebok Volume 20 p.1443 [[3]]. simongraham (talk) 04:20, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

OK, so for the first and third ones, I think you could use {{PD-Sweden-photo}} as the Swedish licence, but it still needs a US PD tag because it is from Sweden and Commons holds the image files on a US server. This is where it gets sticky. US PD tags generally require information about when the image was published, and as far as I can see, we don't know if these images were ever published before being placed online (or even when they were placed online, for that matter). So I think unless you can find evidence that they were actually published in a book or journal etc, we might have to look at alternatives. But I'm going to bring in Nikkimaria here, as she is my go-to on this stuff, and might be able to see a way we could use the Marinmuseum images given they have the PD mark. What do you think, Nikkimaria? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:51, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Agree, need more information on publication history. Nikkimaria (talk) 10:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Nikkimaria. Failing that, drop them both and use this one from NHHC with their licensing tag per File:Austro-Hungarian torpedo boat 81T NH 87683.tif. I know it is not as good, but it is better than no pic at all. With the second one (the diagram), if that volume was was published in 1914, which appears to be the case, then you could use {{PD-US-expired}} and that one will be ok. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:16, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I have set the PD tag and refined the source location on the diagram. The web pages on the Marinmuseum website with the images point here for their licensing: [4]. Can we use this please? simongraham (talk)

Unfortunately not, because they apply to Sweden, and we still need a US PD tag, which we won’t get without publication info. So, I’m afraid it’s the NHHC one. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 14:41, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I've been in touch with the Marinmuseum about the image and they have kindly responded that unfortunately they don't know who the photographer was or when it was taken. "The picture is dated after 1939/40 because of some modifications of the vessel from this year. We have no indications or records if or when it was published." As an alternative, there are other images from Sjöhistoriska Museet of a postcard of the ship in its original configuration. One image is here. The notes say that the photograph was taken by Karl Emil Karlsson (1864–1937). It has the link to Creative Commons for licensing. Archive.org also has some images from the same institution, including IV558 from 1940. Again, the metadata claims PD licensing. Would either or both of these be good replacements please? simongraham (talk) 23:12, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, that means the Marinmuseum ones can't be used. The postcard is great, because it is presumed published when it was created, as postcards were offered for sale at that time. The Karlsson postcard could use {{PD-old-70}} for Sweden and {{PD-US-expired}} for the US. The archive.org one doesn't provide any publication details, so it can't be used because no US PD tag will fit. So, I suggest replacing the infobox image with the postcard, and deleting the other Marinmuseum one and I think we are done here. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:13, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

This should now be done. Thank you for your help with this. Not only has this taught me a lot about editing on Wikipedia, I have learnt a lot more about images on Wikimedia Commons too. simongraham (talk) 22:05, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

No worries. I appreciate this has been a drawn-out process, but I am very glad you have learnt a bit from it. This is now easily GA, and I encourage you to nominate it for Milhist A-Class Review at WP:MHR, where you will get further feedback for improvements. This article is well-written, verifiable using reliable sources, covers the subject well, is neutral and stable, contains no plagiarism, and is illustrated by acceptably licensed images with appropriate captions. Passing. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 4 July 2020 (UTC)