Talk:HMS Cornflower

HMS Cornflower Confusion

Copied conversation from User_talk:Lyndaship#HMS_Cornflower regarding confusions of two Cornflowers:

Thank you for your edit in the disambig page for HMS Cornflower. I am seeking your agreement in making some further changes to the page. Many sources, including Colledge, would say that HMS Cornflower (1916) was renamed Tai Hing and then renamed Cornflower again, and she was sunk in Dec 1941. In actuality, Cornflower had been replaced by SS Tai Hing, an entirely different ship, in 1940. Tai Hing was later renamed Cornflower after its predecessor, and it was the ship that was sunk in battle. The original Cornflower was sold as scrap in 1940. This can be verified through local sources at the time. Here is an excerpt from P.5 of the 1940-09-02 Hongkong Telegraph (this can be verified by accessing the Hong Kong newspaper archive): "In a week or so the Hongkong Naval Volunteer Force will be fully accommodated[...] on board a new depot ship, the former steamship Tai Hing, but under the continued name of H.M.S. Cornflower, the name of the late depot ship." "The late Cornflower was handed back to the Royal Navy, and she is to be broken up." I would also like to add that, while both ships acted as a shore establishment, Cornflower (ex-Tai Hing) was a seaworthy vessel, as noted in the same article: "The new Cornflower lies in the basin and will remain stationary, although she can put to sea if necessary. Probably the only occasions on which she will leave the basin will be in obedience to typhoon signals." I understand that 90% of the sources will differ from this account, therefore I am asking for your opinion before changing the fate of the original Cornflower to "sold as scrap in 1940." Thank you. - Rinbro (talk) 23:12, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Mmmm this is interesting. I think you have found an error in Colledge and other sources as from Mirimar it is quite clear the original Cornflower is a different ship from Tai Hing. However on the two material points we still have a problem, firstly every RS except the one you provide states that the original Cornflower was lost in December 1941 and your newspaper quote does not contradict this as it says "she is to be broken up" not she has been broken up. Secondly theres no source to say that Tai Hing was formally renamed or commissioned by the RN as HMS Cornflower (and Miramar which lists all names of a ship does not record Cornflower as one of Tai Hings), at best we have a claim that she will be known as H.M.S. Cornflower. Maybe you could put a note on the Ship Index page saying sources differ but I don't think the newspaper actually says the original Cornflower was scrapped in 1940 or prove Tai Hing was renamedLyndaship (talk) 14:26, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. Tai Hing was confirmed to be renamed to Cornflower per the 1941 Navy List. I do agree that pending further research, it is impossible to certify the fate of both ships. In this case, would it be okay to change the fate of the two ships to "Her further fate is unclear: It was reported that Cornflower was sunk in December 1941 during the Battle of Hong Kong, but it is unknown if this refers to the original Cornflower or her successor."? As for the disambig page, I propose we do not mention the fate of both ships there, and list all 3 Cornflowers chronologically as follows:

Three ships of the Royal Navy have been named HMS Cornflower:

• HMS Cornflower (1916), an Arabis-class sloop launched in 1916
• HMS Cornflower, a river steamer launched in 1927, originally SS Tai Hing
• HMS Cornflower (1950), was an Algerine-class minesweeper laid down as HMCS Hespeler but renamed Lysander on transfer to the Royal Navy in 1943. She was renamed Cornflower in 1950 and broken up in 1957

(Further adding to the confusion, even the 3rd Cornflower appears to be the HQ ship of the Hongkong Naval Volunteer Force. It seems that they have a tradition to rename all new HQ ships to Cornflower.) Thank you. - Rinbro (talk) 03:41, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

I just went through some Chinese sources, Chinese Mail 1940-09-22, Chinese Mail 1940-09-26 and Ta Kung Pao 1940-09-26 all indicate that Tai Hing "is to replace the broken up Cornflower." Perhaps with this we can confirm the original Cornflower was broken up in 1940? - Rinbro (talk) 04:07, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Excellent digging! I feel that the cite from the Navy List confirms that Tai Hing was renamed Cornflower and the Chinese sources are sufficient to prove that the original Cornflower was broken up in 1940. I'm broadly in line with your suggestions but the ship index page should mention fates and subsequent name of the Tai Hing and the individual pages should use the cites you have found to show fates and renaming. Personally I'm not keen on putting in something which I believe is wrong even if RS supports it but of course thats not wiki policy. If we are saying Cornflower 1916 was scrapped in 1940 we shouldn't also be saying she might have been sunk in 1941 - that must have been Tai Hing. I think it might be best to copy this thread to the SI page and individual articles in case at some future date someone disputes your copy per other RS. Well done again Lyndaship (talk) 14:28, 26 January 2021 (UTC)