Talk:HEC Paris/Archives/2013
Latest comment: 10 years ago by Danias in topic Ridiculous tone and false information
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Ridiculous tone and false information
A few things about the version Danias tries to impose.
•Statint that HEC is France’s leading business school without any nuance demonstrates ignorance of the subject. Of course, HEC is one of the best schools, but INSEAD get better rankings in nearly all MBA rankings.
- This information is based on references. You say that INSEAD gets better ranking in nearly all MBA ranking but this is irrelevant. This page is about a business school and not just an MBA programme. No one said that HEC has the best MBA program in France. One would imagine that you are not an HEC graduate but an INSEAD wannabe student but I don't see why your personal choices or opinions should be of any importance.Danias (talk) 21:57, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- Your information is based on an unknown media. And within the quoted article, the information is completely necdotal. The fact that HEC is not better than INSEAD is public knowledge and do not require any reference for an informed and honest contributor. Stating that MBA rankings are not relevant when it comes to rank business school is just ridiculous as it the main degree they deliver. On the other hand, HEC offers degrees which have no competitors (the GE degree) within INSEAD's portfolio which also prevent from stating that INSEAD is better than HEC. Here a clear reference to please you : http://www.eduniversal-ranking.com/business-school-university-ranking-in-france.html --Acrit (talk) 22:38, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- I have addressed your comments and have added a more reliable reference (The Financial Times). Public knowledge doesn't cut it in Wikipedia. Please read the guidelines. HEC participates in every ranking there is and that makes it stronger as a school than INSEAD (read the financial times if you don't believe me [1]). The reference you presented is a ranking. One of many. In any case, to remove any possible ambiguity I have made a slight change that leave some space for the imagination in regards to your favorite school (INSEAD) and I think covers your objections. Please refrain from deleting everything when a simple addition or change or word can fix a problem. What you are doing is very counter-productive.Danias (talk) 23:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- My favorite school is HEC, but wikipedia is not about my own opinion. I like the FT, they are funny, they increase my market value with their rankings... but a ranking which puts a world class university such as the London School of Economics behind Grenoble Business School is just a joke. Graduates of LSE get jobs students from Grenoble would not even apply to. Who are the crazy guys who would follow this ranking and enroll at Euromed Business School when admitted at Cambridge University ?--Acrit (talk) 00:28, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- I think you are missing the whole idea behind Wikipedia. Here you are arguing that a newspaper like the FT does not mean much compared to your own personal opinions. This is not a place to debate logical arguments or conduct original research or storytelling. The fact that you feel that the FT is not a serious publication does not mean anything as far as Wikipedia is concerned and does not give you the right to delete content as you please. Your rude actions and you unwillingness to understand how Wikipedia operates reflect badly on HEC if you are indeed a graduate of the school. Danias (talk) 00:47, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- I did not delete this content. I just point out, and this is describred in details in Wikipedia Guidelines, that one should be careful when using newspapers as sources. I am not a noob, I have more than 10,000 edits on the French wiki, stop arguing on that. The fact that Cambridge University is not in the same league as Euromed BS does not require any source, even if a journalist does not agree, unless you are dealing with an hypocrite or an ignorant.--Acrit (talk) 11:42, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- I think you are missing the whole idea behind Wikipedia. Here you are arguing that a newspaper like the FT does not mean much compared to your own personal opinions. This is not a place to debate logical arguments or conduct original research or storytelling. The fact that you feel that the FT is not a serious publication does not mean anything as far as Wikipedia is concerned and does not give you the right to delete content as you please. Your rude actions and you unwillingness to understand how Wikipedia operates reflect badly on HEC if you are indeed a graduate of the school. Danias (talk) 00:47, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- My favorite school is HEC, but wikipedia is not about my own opinion. I like the FT, they are funny, they increase my market value with their rankings... but a ranking which puts a world class university such as the London School of Economics behind Grenoble Business School is just a joke. Graduates of LSE get jobs students from Grenoble would not even apply to. Who are the crazy guys who would follow this ranking and enroll at Euromed Business School when admitted at Cambridge University ?--Acrit (talk) 00:28, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- I have addressed your comments and have added a more reliable reference (The Financial Times). Public knowledge doesn't cut it in Wikipedia. Please read the guidelines. HEC participates in every ranking there is and that makes it stronger as a school than INSEAD (read the financial times if you don't believe me [1]). The reference you presented is a ranking. One of many. In any case, to remove any possible ambiguity I have made a slight change that leave some space for the imagination in regards to your favorite school (INSEAD) and I think covers your objections. Please refrain from deleting everything when a simple addition or change or word can fix a problem. What you are doing is very counter-productive.Danias (talk) 23:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- Your information is based on an unknown media. And within the quoted article, the information is completely necdotal. The fact that HEC is not better than INSEAD is public knowledge and do not require any reference for an informed and honest contributor. Stating that MBA rankings are not relevant when it comes to rank business school is just ridiculous as it the main degree they deliver. On the other hand, HEC offers degrees which have no competitors (the GE degree) within INSEAD's portfolio which also prevent from stating that INSEAD is better than HEC. Here a clear reference to please you : http://www.eduniversal-ranking.com/business-school-university-ranking-in-france.html --Acrit (talk) 22:38, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- This information is based on references. You say that INSEAD gets better ranking in nearly all MBA ranking but this is irrelevant. This page is about a business school and not just an MBA programme. No one said that HEC has the best MBA program in France. One would imagine that you are not an HEC graduate but an INSEAD wannabe student but I don't see why your personal choices or opinions should be of any importance.Danias (talk) 21:57, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
•Second, there is no need to refer to a very minor and confidential ranking such as that of Mines ParisTech in the intro. By the way, Danias has not read the methodology of the ranking. The ranking by Mines ParisTech is only a snapshot of the Fortune 500. What this ranking shows is that France is strong when it comes to create big companies, and that French Grande Ecoles are strong when it comes to controlling those few big companies.
- Just like your edits, you make claims without providing any references or proof. I am Danias and I am fully aware of what this ranking talks about so once more you are being completely subjective and imposing your opinions. What is written is not false and references are provided. Your edits are completely subjective and based on your personal opinions. Danias (talk) 21:57, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- What you write is not written in the study of Mines ParisTech, which only says that HEC has many current Fortune 500 CEOs within its alumni, certainly not that it produces more CEOs than most American Universities. The Mines ParisTech study is based on 11 guys ! There is no need to provide a reference when claiming something about the content of a public document, one just needs to read the document.--Acrit (talk) 22:38, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- Just like your edits, you make claims without providing any references or proof. I am Danias and I am fully aware of what this ranking talks about so once more you are being completely subjective and imposing your opinions. What is written is not false and references are provided. Your edits are completely subjective and based on your personal opinions. Danias (talk) 21:57, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
•The fact that Henri Proglio is “president” does not mean anything. President has a definition which varies from one legal context to another. Proglio has no executive role whatsoever in the management of the school, like the president of Harvard has. Proglio is President du “Conseil d’Etablissement” which is only an advisory board, and not the school itself. HEC is managed by the Dean, and the boss of the dean is president of the Chambre de Commerce et d’Industrie Paris Ile de France. It is quite clear if you look at the HEC website : “HEC’s Council comprises elected representatives of the Paris Chamber of commerce and industry who meet up four times a year. It engages with questions of budget, planning and policy, and ensures that the school’s strategy is in line with the needs of today’s business world.” The official French title of Bernard Ramanantsoa is “directeur general”, which is equivalent to CEO in English.
- Where does it state that a president needs to have an executive role to be worth mentioning? The president of Greece has no executive control nor the Queen of England, should we remove these from Wikipedia as well? Again your edits are subjective and completely based on your own opinions. Henri Proglio is the President and that is fact. Danias (talk) 21:57, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- Proglio is not president of HEC. Proglio is president of the "conseil d'établissement", a group of guys who gather 3 times a year to give pieces of advice which can be ignored. Anyway, there is no president of HEC since HEC has no legal existence. HEC Paris is just a brand owned by the CCI Paris Ile-de-France. Maybe you can add the president of the alumni association, the president of the fondation HEC, etcetera...--Acrit (talk) 22:38, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- Please read before you say thing and especially before you delete things. HEC has two governing bodies: the Council and the Advisory Board. You are mixing the role of the advisory board and the council. The Council is as powerful as a board of directors at a corporation and it's President is Henri Proglio. [2] You are mixing the role of a President and a CEO which are discreet and both important. Danias (talk) 22:50, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- Conseil d'établissement is neither "Conseil de Surveillance" neither "Conseil d'Administration". Thanks for the French law course, but it is irrelevant since HEC is not even a "personne morale" and therefore can neither has a CEO nor a President as a company or a an association has.--Acrit (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- HEC's legal entity is CCIP Groupe HEC the president of the board governing this entity is Proglio. HEC on its website clearly states that it has a governing structure and it mentions two key positions a) the President Henri Proglio and b) the Dean Bernard Ramanantsoa. I really do not understand what your problem is and you are being so obsessive and rude about this. I say rude because imposing your opinion like that is just rude when there is no clear basis to do so.23:25, 27 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danias (talk • contribs)
- HEC is not a legal entity, so all your analogies are irelevant. If you want a source for that : http://www.lemonde.fr/education/article/2012/11/30/hec-attend-un-nouveau-statut-inedit-pour-2013_1798611_1473685.html . Stating that Proglio is "President of HEC Paris" is completely misleading, Proglio is president of an advisory board of businessmen, called Conseil d'Etablissement, which gives pieces of advice to the school management. This cannot be compared to the function of the president of a university. If you want to add a sentence stating that Proglio is "President of HEC Council", explaining what it is, I will have no problem with it. If you go on the article "Italy", you will find Enrico Letta as "Prime Minister", whereas his official title is "Presidente del Consiglio". Yet nobody tries to modify the "Italy" webpage, because stating that Enrico Letta is "President of Italy" would be a complete misunderstanding of the Italian Constitution. Same principle here. The template uses the word "President" for people to quickly understand who is running the "University", and "Dean" for the guy running a specific school or college within a collegiate university. By focusing on the words without consideration for their contextual meaning, and by ignoring that templates are used to present standardized information accross similar articles, you mislead the reader by implying that Proglio presides over HEC in a similar manner as Drew Gilpin Faust presides over Harvard University, which is not true at all. It is not even true that Proglio presides over HEC like a President of the board of directors would. A board of directors can appoint the management for example, whereas the management of HEC is appointed by CCIP IdF, a far larger organization. A board of directors has to approve major management decisions, like the budget, whereas the budget of HEC is only a part of the budget of CCIP, legaly determined by CCIP. Again HEC has no legal status, no board, and not even employees (all the staff are officialy employed by CCIP IdF).--Acrit (talk) 00:09, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- You might consider this in your mind as right but this does not mean that you can just delete content like that. The whole point of these pages is to discuss and resolve these issues. You do not wait for anyones input you just force your opinions. I did not put my name as president of HEC something you could easily argue is wrong and would justify immediate removal. Nonetheless, Proglio is mentioned as the President of HEC on it's official page. You are making an argument that is worthy of discussion and here is the place to discuss it. STOP deleting content just because you feel you are right until this matter is resolved.Danias (talk) 00:42, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- You premise is that a content which is suspected to be misleading should stay until you agree it is misleading. It is absurd. And no, Proglio is not mentionned as president of hec on the HEC website, but as "Président du Conseil d’Etablissement d’HEC Paris". Identifying "Président du Conseil d’Etablissement d’HEC Paris" as "President of HEC" is "what you might consider in your mind as right", but it is not. I will let this information when you provide a source stating "President of HEC.".--Acrit (talk) 11:42, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- I have provided a source and it says President of HEC and that is that. This is the English Wikipedia and I am talking about an English source. You are talking about a French source and you are translating as you see fit when HEC has made it's own translation and states that Proglio is it's President. And how exactly is it misleading? Seriously get a life and stop being a troll. An editor can decide on this it is not your job to force your opinions when I have provided a source which mentions Proglio clearly as President of HEC and Ramanantsoa as Dean. Danias (talk) 11:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- No your English source does not. It states "President of HEC’s Council."--Acrit (talk) 11:55, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- "HEC Paris, affiliated to the Paris Chamber of Commerce and Industry, has two governing bodies: the Council and the Advisory Board." The Council is different from the Advisory Board and it is a governing body of HEC and Proglio is it's President. It is clear. HEC's page has three options under About HEC. The President, The Dean and HEC Management this clearly indicates the importance of the President. We are debating here you personal opinions. You have made your point clear and we must wait for someone to comment on this. STOP deleting content like that!Danias (talk) 12:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- No your English source does not. It states "President of HEC’s Council."--Acrit (talk) 11:55, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- I have provided a source and it says President of HEC and that is that. This is the English Wikipedia and I am talking about an English source. You are talking about a French source and you are translating as you see fit when HEC has made it's own translation and states that Proglio is it's President. And how exactly is it misleading? Seriously get a life and stop being a troll. An editor can decide on this it is not your job to force your opinions when I have provided a source which mentions Proglio clearly as President of HEC and Ramanantsoa as Dean. Danias (talk) 11:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- You premise is that a content which is suspected to be misleading should stay until you agree it is misleading. It is absurd. And no, Proglio is not mentionned as president of hec on the HEC website, but as "Président du Conseil d’Etablissement d’HEC Paris". Identifying "Président du Conseil d’Etablissement d’HEC Paris" as "President of HEC" is "what you might consider in your mind as right", but it is not. I will let this information when you provide a source stating "President of HEC.".--Acrit (talk) 11:42, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- You might consider this in your mind as right but this does not mean that you can just delete content like that. The whole point of these pages is to discuss and resolve these issues. You do not wait for anyones input you just force your opinions. I did not put my name as president of HEC something you could easily argue is wrong and would justify immediate removal. Nonetheless, Proglio is mentioned as the President of HEC on it's official page. You are making an argument that is worthy of discussion and here is the place to discuss it. STOP deleting content just because you feel you are right until this matter is resolved.Danias (talk) 00:42, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- HEC is not a legal entity, so all your analogies are irelevant. If you want a source for that : http://www.lemonde.fr/education/article/2012/11/30/hec-attend-un-nouveau-statut-inedit-pour-2013_1798611_1473685.html . Stating that Proglio is "President of HEC Paris" is completely misleading, Proglio is president of an advisory board of businessmen, called Conseil d'Etablissement, which gives pieces of advice to the school management. This cannot be compared to the function of the president of a university. If you want to add a sentence stating that Proglio is "President of HEC Council", explaining what it is, I will have no problem with it. If you go on the article "Italy", you will find Enrico Letta as "Prime Minister", whereas his official title is "Presidente del Consiglio". Yet nobody tries to modify the "Italy" webpage, because stating that Enrico Letta is "President of Italy" would be a complete misunderstanding of the Italian Constitution. Same principle here. The template uses the word "President" for people to quickly understand who is running the "University", and "Dean" for the guy running a specific school or college within a collegiate university. By focusing on the words without consideration for their contextual meaning, and by ignoring that templates are used to present standardized information accross similar articles, you mislead the reader by implying that Proglio presides over HEC in a similar manner as Drew Gilpin Faust presides over Harvard University, which is not true at all. It is not even true that Proglio presides over HEC like a President of the board of directors would. A board of directors can appoint the management for example, whereas the management of HEC is appointed by CCIP IdF, a far larger organization. A board of directors has to approve major management decisions, like the budget, whereas the budget of HEC is only a part of the budget of CCIP, legaly determined by CCIP. Again HEC has no legal status, no board, and not even employees (all the staff are officialy employed by CCIP IdF).--Acrit (talk) 00:09, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
- HEC's legal entity is CCIP Groupe HEC the president of the board governing this entity is Proglio. HEC on its website clearly states that it has a governing structure and it mentions two key positions a) the President Henri Proglio and b) the Dean Bernard Ramanantsoa. I really do not understand what your problem is and you are being so obsessive and rude about this. I say rude because imposing your opinion like that is just rude when there is no clear basis to do so.23:25, 27 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danias (talk • contribs)
- Conseil d'établissement is neither "Conseil de Surveillance" neither "Conseil d'Administration". Thanks for the French law course, but it is irrelevant since HEC is not even a "personne morale" and therefore can neither has a CEO nor a President as a company or a an association has.--Acrit (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- Please read before you say thing and especially before you delete things. HEC has two governing bodies: the Council and the Advisory Board. You are mixing the role of the advisory board and the council. The Council is as powerful as a board of directors at a corporation and it's President is Henri Proglio. [2] You are mixing the role of a President and a CEO which are discreet and both important. Danias (talk) 22:50, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- Proglio is not president of HEC. Proglio is president of the "conseil d'établissement", a group of guys who gather 3 times a year to give pieces of advice which can be ignored. Anyway, there is no president of HEC since HEC has no legal existence. HEC Paris is just a brand owned by the CCI Paris Ile-de-France. Maybe you can add the president of the alumni association, the president of the fondation HEC, etcetera...--Acrit (talk) 22:38, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- Where does it state that a president needs to have an executive role to be worth mentioning? The president of Greece has no executive control nor the Queen of England, should we remove these from Wikipedia as well? Again your edits are subjective and completely based on your own opinions. Henri Proglio is the President and that is fact. Danias (talk) 21:57, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
I am a graduate of HEC, I love it, but the introduction “hello, only Harvard can beat us” is just ridiculous for any informed reader.
- Nowhere does it say that "only Harvard can beat us" nor is there a comparison between other schools in general terms. Rather this point is on a particular study and nothing more is claimed than the actual results of that study. Maybe you could consider creating an account since you are doing so many edits and put a face behind your opinions. Although this page is about HEC Paris covering all its degrees (graduate, undergraduate and executive programmes) you seem very sensitive about INSEAD's MBA programme although this page is not making any claims on this particular topic or any direct comparisons between the two.
- If you feel that the particular study is causing confusion (although everything that is stated is factual) then this is the place to express your concerns and ask for further feedback from other more experienced members of the community. Simply deleting content like that and returning the whole page to very old versions throwing away several edits just because you don't like one thing is at least not constructive.
Danias (talk) 22:07, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.30.37.3 (talk) 19:59, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Do not worry about my experience, my first contribution to wikipedia was on August 2005.--Acrit (talk) 22:41, 27 May 2013 (UTC) My first one was back then too but that doesn't make me or you an editor or a very experience member of the community. Danias (talk) 23:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)