Talk:Gwaii Haanas National Park Reserve and Haida Heritage Site
 | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
closeup map needed edit
I'd add reqmap but someone will just deleted it because "it alrady has a map". A close-up map showing the park and its features is needed; not just the Haida villages but also former mines and other settlements etc.
- For a starter, the addition of closeup map would need additional fields or parameters in template:Infobox Protected area. I tried to add a map - and got nowhere. Peter Horn User talk 17:33, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Done, I found the "missing" fields in the infobox in Theodore Roosevelt Island. It may be desirable to substite (replace it with) a better map. Peter Horn User talk 23:32, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
OK, Ninsntints can mean either the village or the chief, but it's the usual name for Skungwai in English and I think it shoudl be the article title; same as how Cumshewa rather than its original Haida name is how even the Museum of Civilization site labels that village. Main point about Ninstints/Skungwai is it needs a separate article; this article is about the park and its history, as a park and so on; Ninstints deserves its own article like other villages now have; currently Skungwai and Ninstints aren't even redireccts; maybe I'll change that but I'd rather see those redlinks becokme bluelinks/articles; maybe I'll get to it but I'm swamped and already put in time on the other village and mine stubs in this area.....Skookum1 (talk) 21:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
It's time to split this article; the UNESCO WH site template at the village section shows how much different content it is from the park; other Haida villages now have their own articles, it's time for this one. Question is which mame to use - Ninsints, granted, should maybe primarily be a "chief" aritcle but that's not the primary use of Ninstints in English, which is/was for this village. The Museum of Civililzation website has Skungwai, and the UNESCO name is [[SGang Gwaay Llnaagay]]. Which one is correct Haida orthography I wouldn't know, but even correct Haida orthography ain't necessarily theway to go. Wiki naming conventions might preclude otherwise, either going with how it's most commonly known, or it might draw on official language vs academic language, I don't know; I'll consult the general problem in a discussion of how to format indigenous-location titles, which is related to another discussion on the use of comma-province format; I used it on Cumshewa because it is/was a searchable place on BC's map/gazette and in other matierals; Ninstints/Skungwai was never "part of BC"; Tanu (Haida village) is the format I used to disambig in that case (see Tanu and others like it); alhtough at the moment that's only a redirect to new Clew, British Columbia. Anyway hopefully Pobblebonk is reading this and can offer some knowledge of the respective orthographies and why the two versions w/wo Llnaagay. I'll also be seeking input from BC and Canada and NorthAmnative and other related WPs; there must be an extant naming convention about this, although from experience I can attest there's not a lot of consistency over "indigenous wikispace" article-names/structures. (though we're trying...).21:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- If we could determine what the origin of Ninsints is, perhaps that would help. As it is, google has 10,500 hits for Ninsints, 163 for Skungwai, and 2 for Gway Llnaagay (both of which are to wikipedia). One of those google hits comes up with "Called Skungwa'ai by the Haida of the Queen Charlotte Islands, Ninstints was the main village of the Kunghit Haida". According to Anthony Island (British Columbia), it is commonly called Ninsints after a 19th century chief. That could throw the google hits out of whack a bit. DigitalC (talk) 00:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- Remember also that the title of the article has the purpose of bringing people to the article, so basically between Ninsints and Skungwai, it should be whatever people would type in - not necessarily what is politically correct. DigitalC (talk) 05:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- Well, as somewhere I tried to explain, names such as Cumshewa and Ninstints were conferred by outsiders for the places, based on the (perceived) local name of the chief; the sense of both is "Ninstits' (place" and "Cumsehwa's place" -= in fact the spelling variants on Cumshewa and Cumshewa Harbour that end like Cumcheas, e.g., are, I think simply the possessive without an apostrophe (common in 19th C. Enlighs, esp. out here on the frontier). Nintsints of course there's no need for a possesive-s, and what an akwward thing to say "Ninstintses" (i.el. to pronounce the apostrophe)....anyway, the prevailing standard is for the name most commoly known/used in English - but within the Indigenous poples are there've been various interpretations of that, and often the linguistically-correct name is what winds up as the article title; i.e. the indigenous name takes priority, or has in some cases But even with indigenous names there's variables; are we using English orthography or the indigenous langauge orthogrpahy - the different here between Skungwai and SG_ang Gwaay and what that Llnaagay is remains to be determined. the UNESCO spelling llooks to me to be proper Haida; why the Museum of Civillization uses Skungwai also remains to be send. Thing is, and I don't know how much of an article it would be ,that Ninstints "normally" would be the name of teh chief whose village this was (not a hereditary title and like Cumshewa may not even be a haida langauge name, but as you found from google it's by far a more common name than the otehrs; and almost NONE of those google hits, if any, will concern the chief.... Ninstints (chief) is an easy enough option, maybe there's a longer form of it; and Chief Ninstints is conceivable though in BC articles we're avoiding that term as a "white-sism" - though in the Haida world mabye "chief" is perfectly useful term (it's not in Salish areas). Cultural authenticity is important; it may be that the use of teh Haida name ofr the site is "preferred" now, with all those Ninstints references "grandfathered". I guess my gut feeling is to go for hte "English" name, Ninsitints and just dab the chief......seems simple but see Talk:Squamish Nation and Talk:Kwakwaka'wakw for related discussion; I guess all thise could be a renaming thing later, once the article is started; it'd be nice to think we have consistency on naming guidelins in indigenous =article areas, but experienced as I am with what's out there in {{NorthAmNative}} I have to admit therte's not the consistency on issues like this that tehre maybe should be....btw one of my wikimaxims is "anything 'politicallly coorect is inherently and by definition POV". This isnt' about political correctness as much as cultural sensitivity,which is a somewhat different matter...Skookum1 (talk) 05:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- I'll see what I can find about Chief Ninstints/[[Ninstints chief); and for now go with Ninstints for the village article, given all those googles; most of those Skungwai ones will I'm sure lead to the Museum of Cilivilzation source...(lots of different pages with that may mentioend or with a link). I guess the thing to do is go with "primary use" no matter the ultimate historical origin, or any unneeded reliance on "lingsuitc authenticity" - by way that SG_ang Gwaay Llnaagay undrline is necessary because the G won't work inside a link; or rather it will, but the link won't.Skookum1 (talk) 05:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC).
- Oh, there's also Nan Sdins, whic is the haida language spelling of Ninstints; all the sites that use it speak of Ninstints being a "corruption by the whites" as if 19th C whites were supposed to know how to spell with 21st Century Haida orthography; a not-quite-subtextual denigration, in other words Nan Sdins is a PIC-ized form, like Q'ona or Q'una for Koona. If only PC people could come up with consistent spellings....Nan Sdins doesn't get very many hits; and most of them seem to parrot the others, almost word for word; Ninstints has been in long historical use, I'll go with it.Skookum1 (talk) 06:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- The only website that google comes up with that uses Skungwai and doesn't use Ninstints or civilization on the same page, is this which is about a quilt. However, a new contender may have appeared, which is Sgaang gwaii. A google search for it reveals 4,370, of which I don't see many that are relevant to the museum of civilization (interestingly, when the search is combined with civilization only 245 hits come up, yet when the word civilization is excluded, only ~900 hits come up). 3,800 of these do not include ninstints or nan sdins. A google search for Ninstints without sgaang or skungwai still comes up with about 9700. So, if there is evidence of a preference for sgaang gwaii for culture sensitivity/preference, I'm sure that it could still be used. DigitalC (talk) 00:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, there's also Nan Sdins, whic is the haida language spelling of Ninstints; all the sites that use it speak of Ninstints being a "corruption by the whites" as if 19th C whites were supposed to know how to spell with 21st Century Haida orthography; a not-quite-subtextual denigration, in other words Nan Sdins is a PIC-ized form, like Q'ona or Q'una for Koona. If only PC people could come up with consistent spellings....Nan Sdins doesn't get very many hits; and most of them seem to parrot the others, almost word for word; Ninstints has been in long historical use, I'll go with it.Skookum1 (talk) 06:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- I'll see what I can find about Chief Ninstints/[[Ninstints chief); and for now go with Ninstints for the village article, given all those googles; most of those Skungwai ones will I'm sure lead to the Museum of Cilivilzation source...(lots of different pages with that may mentioend or with a link). I guess the thing to do is go with "primary use" no matter the ultimate historical origin, or any unneeded reliance on "lingsuitc authenticity" - by way that SG_ang Gwaay Llnaagay undrline is necessary because the G won't work inside a link; or rather it will, but the link won't.Skookum1 (talk) 05:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC).
- Well, as somewhere I tried to explain, names such as Cumshewa and Ninstints were conferred by outsiders for the places, based on the (perceived) local name of the chief; the sense of both is "Ninstits' (place" and "Cumsehwa's place" -= in fact the spelling variants on Cumshewa and Cumshewa Harbour that end like Cumcheas, e.g., are, I think simply the possessive without an apostrophe (common in 19th C. Enlighs, esp. out here on the frontier). Nintsints of course there's no need for a possesive-s, and what an akwward thing to say "Ninstintses" (i.el. to pronounce the apostrophe)....anyway, the prevailing standard is for the name most commoly known/used in English - but within the Indigenous poples are there've been various interpretations of that, and often the linguistically-correct name is what winds up as the article title; i.e. the indigenous name takes priority, or has in some cases But even with indigenous names there's variables; are we using English orthography or the indigenous langauge orthogrpahy - the different here between Skungwai and SG_ang Gwaay and what that Llnaagay is remains to be determined. the UNESCO spelling llooks to me to be proper Haida; why the Museum of Civillization uses Skungwai also remains to be send. Thing is, and I don't know how much of an article it would be ,that Ninstints "normally" would be the name of teh chief whose village this was (not a hereditary title and like Cumshewa may not even be a haida langauge name, but as you found from google it's by far a more common name than the otehrs; and almost NONE of those google hits, if any, will concern the chief.... Ninstints (chief) is an easy enough option, maybe there's a longer form of it; and Chief Ninstints is conceivable though in BC articles we're avoiding that term as a "white-sism" - though in the Haida world mabye "chief" is perfectly useful term (it's not in Salish areas). Cultural authenticity is important; it may be that the use of teh Haida name ofr the site is "preferred" now, with all those Ninstints references "grandfathered". I guess my gut feeling is to go for hte "English" name, Ninsitints and just dab the chief......seems simple but see Talk:Squamish Nation and Talk:Kwakwaka'wakw for related discussion; I guess all thise could be a renaming thing later, once the article is started; it'd be nice to think we have consistency on naming guidelins in indigenous =article areas, but experienced as I am with what's out there in {{NorthAmNative}} I have to admit therte's not the consistency on issues like this that tehre maybe should be....btw one of my wikimaxims is "anything 'politicallly coorect is inherently and by definition POV". This isnt' about political correctness as much as cultural sensitivity,which is a somewhat different matter...Skookum1 (talk) 05:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- Remember also that the title of the article has the purpose of bringing people to the article, so basically between Ninsints and Skungwai, it should be whatever people would type in - not necessarily what is politically correct. DigitalC (talk) 05:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
[undent]I did quite a bit of research before taking a sally at how it's worded; only two of the sites I read are ref'd so far. I shoppsed around thevarious google links for Ninstints et al., and you'll find that a lot of the Sgang gwaii/gwaay links lead to the UNESCO designation; and that seems to be the same orthography for Haida Iv'e seen in Bringhurst's translations of Skaay and Ghandl; a variant is also found on the emilycarr.org site and again there seems a certain community of scholarship/art criticism that uses that, and yoour isolationg odf hte word "civilizaitotn" was interesting and adroit - taht this was a civilization decidedly more fashioanble with modern academics and intellectuals (and myself I'd change the title of various articles (e.g. Indigenous cilivization onf the Pacific Northwest Coast as a possibility) but it seems POV). Skungwai as noted is the spelling used by the Museum of Civilization, and apparently a different pack of academics and particular Haida-group preferences; while there is a standard orthography for Haida, there is no standard orthography for Haida in English, i.e. proper Haid orthography uses characters not found in English; not a wikirpbolem I know. Anyway because those mass of google hits really boil down to citations driving only from a few, AND it happens taht Skungwa/SGang Gwaay simply means "Red Cod Island"; "Llanagaay" has to be added to mean the village (it's a tiny island, most of it was/is t he village). One of the Cumshewa Inlet towns, Skedans I think, had aname that meant "red snapper village"; these may have had to do with the decor on the hosuefronts or poles, as was the case also with the name Grizzly-Bear Town (Skedans). Hm, maybe I've got the cod/snapper thing wrong, maybe those are both translations for Skungwai....So while most Haida villages had several names, it seems (or at least three or foru), here there are two:
- SGang Gwaay LLanagaay]]
- Ninstints
Again, Skungwai is only the name of the island. And given village names elsewhere - Masset, Skidegate, Cumshewa as I mentioned in hte article, also Kloo/ Tanu are known in most historical (not modern academic/political/artistic() sources by the name of their chief; as with "Ninstints". In Nuu-chah-nulth areas, names like Yuquot adn Opitsaht are those of the people, not t he location; the actual Nhuu-chah-=nulth vlanguage village-name is different. Because also Chief Skidegate and [[Cumsehwa (chief) and Chief Masset and others will get their articles by those titles (or with the dab-parantheses as ine Cumshewa's). Chief Ninstints winds up being "according to format", at least within the Haid aregion; this isn't continent-wide or even region-wide. I'm no Haida expert, just trying to make sense of confusing and often prejudicially-toned sources; "corrupted by whites" etc. when in actuality if it's a mistake, how can it be a corruption. You can't be both wrong and misspeled at the same time; that a p.c. version of Ninstints also shows up - Nan Sdins, transltaed as "one who is two", confuses it all the more and also comes from taht trying to re-do history thing with modern POVism.Skookum1 (talk) 01:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Gold Harbour/Tasu Sound? - re local map edit
In editing Gold Harbour, British Columbia right now, I wasn't sure if it was within Gwaii Haanas or not so left "Parks Canada" in the new infobox there...and I guess I was hoping to find a map here to resolve that question; but it would seem a map showing the park on the local scale, not the big regional/continental locator map it has already.....Anyone have any idea where the northern boundary of the park is, i.e. frmo which sound/inlet/bay/headland on teh west to the which sound/bay/headland/inlet on the east?Skookum1 (talk) 14:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Coordinates edit
| Gwaii Haanas National Park | |
|---|---|
| Coordinates | 52°23′21″N 131°28′16″W / 52.38917°N 131.47111°W |
| Area | 1,470 km2 (570 sq mi) |
Copy and paste Why do the coordinates appear twice (2x) in the (cropped) infobox? Peter Horn User talk 17:44, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
External links modified edit
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Gwaii Haanas National Park Reserve and Haida Heritage Site. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050530014154/http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/bc/gwaiihaanas/index_E.asp to http://pc.gc.ca/pn-np/bc/gwaiihaanas/index_e.asp
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050530014154/http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/bc/gwaiihaanas/index_E.asp to http://pc.gc.ca/pn-np/bc/gwaiihaanas/index_e.asp
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).
- If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
- If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:48, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
External links modified edit
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Gwaii Haanas National Park Reserve and Haida Heritage Site. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070219221956/http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/bc/gwaiihaanas/natcul/natcul1_e.asp to http://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/bc/gwaiihaanas/natcul/natcul1_e.asp
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090317044017/http://mypage.direct.ca/r/rhsu/otters.html to http://mypage.direct.ca/r/rhsu/otters.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).
- If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
- If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:44, 2 January 2018 (UTC)