Talk:Gustavus Adolphus Day

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 21:54, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Gustav Adolph Day → Gustavus Adolphus Day – The king which this day is named for is usually called Gustavus Adolphus in English and he is not called Gustav Adolph even in Swedish (in Swedish, he is called Gustaf II Adolf or Gustav II Adolf). Ove Raul (talk) 22:49, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose - This legitimate alternative English name is much closer in linguistic format to the actual name of the holiday. "Gustavus Adolphus" is Latin, neither English nor Swedish, and is an obsolete usage in my opinion, no matter what the frequency in older English literature. The use of "Adolphus", rather than standard English Adolph, was once considered anti-Hitler in Britain and the United States. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:59, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support it has been decided that Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden should be named so at this Wikipedia and then it's logical to have the same name for his memorial day. Andrew S. Knight (talk) 01:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

This article is about the holiday, not about the king. The holiday is completely unknown in any language with the Latin name version; thus you'll hardly find a single Swede who'll call it "Gustavus Adolphus Day" when speaking English. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 02:15, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

The day is named for the king and you can find Gustavus Adolphus pastry on November 6 in some places in the US. [1] Andrew S. Knight (talk) 03:13, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

"Gustav Adolph day" gets 29 hits at Bing, "Gustavus Adolphus day" gets 4510 hits. Andrew S. Knight (talk) 03:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

"Gustav Adolph day" gets ≈597 hits at Google, "Gustavus Adolphus day" gets ≈14 900 hits. Andrew S. Knight (talk) 09:00, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

"Gustav Adolph day" gets 28 hits at Yahoo!, "Gustavus Adolphus day" gets 6,090 hits. Andrew S. Knight (talk) 09:00, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Two questions:

1. Why did you exclude Gustav Adolf Day and Gustaf Adolf Day in those statistics?
2. Is it your intention, and that of new user Ove Raul, to change the king's name to "Gustavus Adolphus" throughout English Wikipedia - every single instance - though is it well established here (line one!) and here (and in that page's archives) that Gustav II Adolf (Swedish spelling) and Gustav II Adolph (English spelling) are viable text alternatives in English, and though his main English biographer Nils Ahnlund did not call him "Gustavus Adolphus"?

--SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:58, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

• Comment you mention the form used by the Swedish, and the form used in some history books of the time (Latinized, like much else) what of the form used by the Germans, which is where he built his empire? -- 70.50.148.248 (talk) 05:52, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support I've never seen this ph spelling before. Harold Snow (talk) 17:43, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Several British and American authors have never used anything but Gustav Adolph. One expert is David Williamson of Debrett's and Burke's Peerage. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:49, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

And on a wall of Stockholm Palace the king is also called Gust. Adolph (note that only Gustav is abbreviated there, not Adolph). The notion that this king never has been called Gustav II Adolph just isn't true. I would be OK with Gustav Adolf Day too, though. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:31, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support for consistency with the title of the king's main WP article, and for no other reason. The dispute over the name by which the king should be called in English is best discussed at his article's talk page. For so long as he is called Gustavus Adolphus in the main article, all other references to him should be styled likewise. Xoloz (talk) 04:33, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

The king is known worldwide, yes in English often as Gustavus Adolphus. The day is known only in Sweden and there the king is never called anything but Gustav Adolf which (along with Gustav Adolph) he is also called in English by a substantial readership. Thus the article's name should have the format of the day's name, not the king's, in this case. The date, November 6th, is officially the name day of Gustav Adolf, not of Gustavus Adolphus. There are many more living and historical Swedes by than name, but none named Gustavus Adolphus. The day (an official flag day) is their day, not just the king's, though named for him at first. If non-Swedes speaking English mention Gustavus Adolphus Day to Swedes, nobody will know what they're talking about. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:36, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Gustav Adolf day in Sweden

In Sweden the name day is for Gustav Adolf, not for Gustavus Adolphus, which is not used in Swedish. There are many Swedes named Gustav Adolf, none named Gustavus Adolphus. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:32, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

In Finland, the name day is Gustav Adolf or Kustaa Aadolf, depending on language, both are now noted in the text but this article is obviously more about the memorial celebration of the king. John Tatebury (talk) 23:35, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

The article as named is primarily about the day, not the celebration. The article's name is not Annual Celebration of King Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. The celebration of Gustav II Adolph that actually takes place is minimal. I would say about 1-5% of the population care about it and celebrate it, at the very most. There is no official (or even unofficial) government or royal celebration of that king of any kind whatsoever. It is not a bank holiday or any other kind of holiday. Nobody is off from work or school. The fact that it's a flag day in Sweden is more of a leftover from the days of the old king (see below), since the name day of the King currently on the throne always is a flag day, as well as the name days of the Queen and the immediate heir to the Throne. Carl day is a flag day today only because that's the present king's name (there is no name day at all for Carl Gustaf).

The day is meant to celebrate everyone named Gustav Adolf. Many of them don't give a hoot about the king, since they were usually named for another relative named Gustav Adolf, many are republicans, and it is extremly unusual in Sweden for anyone to care about old kings. 90% of the Swedish population know nothing at all about the king many people call Gustavus Adolphus in English, nothing under any name form. When I've (for over 50 years) asked people passing by (totally about 500) who the statue is across from Stockholm Palace no more than 2% of them have even known the first thing about his name, and that 2% have guessed that its a king named Gustav Adolf only because it's in the center of Gustav Adolph Square. About 60-70% replied någon kung (some king). The rest simply said they didn't know and/or didn't care (det skiter jag i and the like).

There are name days every day 365 days/year in Sweden. This particular one is primarily for regular people named Gustav Adolf to celebrate their name, not to remember the king. When the old king (r. 1950-1973) was on the throne he was celebrated much more on this day than his 17th century precedecessor. There is actually no such thing as Gustavus Adolphus Day. That's what I've been trying to point out. There is a name day for people named Gustav Adolf which happens to have been created in memory of the first of Sweden's 3 kings by that name. These are the facts on what the day actually is, and what the aricle primarily should be about. I'm sad about the fact that what we now have here (in the name) is a Wikipedia invention. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:30, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

PS It is patently wrong for English WP now to claim that there is a day called Gustavus Adolphus Day anywhere in the world, and thus to translate the name of hundreds of modern Swedes named Gustav Adolf and Gustaf Adolf (whose day that actually is to celebrate) to English in any context whatsoever. 47 of them have their own articles on Swedish WP and a few are even on English WP. It's their name day you're messing with. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:51, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

This article is not about the nameday, it is about the day celebrating the 17th century king Gustavus Adolphus. I don't see anyone (but you) suggesting the naming of this Gustavus Adolphus celebratory day "Gustavus Adolphus Day" means this "translates" the name of private citizens called Gustav Adolf to Gustavus Adolphus. The 6 November is of course also the nameday of Gustav Adolf, but that is not the main focus of this article. Bandy boy (talk) 21:02, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

The article is about a day in Sweden (celebrated nowhere else), notwithstanding whether or not it is about the king or for people named Gustav Adolf today, or both, and that is a day that is only callled Gustavus Adolphus Day on English Wikipedia. That's what's called a Wikipedia invention, and we're not supposed to be doing that. Everyobody else who mentions the day in English calls it Gustav Adolf Day. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:43, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

The day is not just celebrated in Sweden and the name does not seem to be any "Wikipedia invention" when searching the Internet for the term. If you don't want the name of the celebration to be in English, you ought to advocate the use of the term "Gustav Adolfsdagen" here at English Wikipedia. If "Gustavus Adolphus Day" is an invention, so is "Gustav Adolf Day". Bandy boy (talk) 00:38, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Day equals Swedish dagen and should be used in English for easy English readability as per WP:SURPRISE. Gustavus Adolphus is not an accurate version of the name Gustav Adolf when it comes to a Swedish nameday. It's like calling July 25 James Day though that nameday is for Jakob. The day is not called Gustavus Adolphus Day, or anything close to that, in any country where it is celebrated. Gustav Adolfsdagen would be better than the ridiculous name the article has now, though that would not as fully be in smooth accordance with WP:SURPRISE or WP:MOS#Vocabulary as Gustav Adolf Day. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 03:34, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

I think you misinterprete this article. It is not about the nameday of Gustav Adolf, it is about the celebratory day for King Gustavus Adolphus. You wouldn't write a Wikipedia article about a nameday, that's not notable enough for an article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.199.118.194 (talk) 12:43, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I think you are misinterpreting the name of the day. It is called Gustav Adolf Day and has never been called Gustavus Adolphus Day anywhere else but on English Wikipedia, regardless of whom it is for. Thus the name of this article is an inappropriate Wikipedia invention. If someone writes an article on English Wikipedia about the nameday of the current king (and 9 other kings before him), also a flag day and celebrated more officially than Gustav Adolf Day, would you like it to be called Charles Day? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:00, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

That's a very hypothetical question, but IF the day was more about celebrating the present king than everyone else by that name AND IF the present king was usually known as just 'Charles' in English, then yes, of course. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.2.210.123 (talk) 15:31, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Pastry

In two short sentences I have now given everything there is to say about the pastry, well referenced. This reveals how unneccesssary it is that the pastry has a separate article. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:57, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Now I don't live in Gothenburg, but I have never ever met someone who said they had been in a Gustavus Adolphus Day celebration nor have I actually seen one of these pastries. Some pastry version is sold in other cities as well, but how much it sells I don't know. Is the pastry all there is to the celebration of the day? combined with a toast for the king, perhaps? Are dinner parties arranged because it is the Gustavus Adolphus Day... or does one toast and eat pastry just because you are having a dinner party this day? In Sweden, is the day commemorated in any other way? Someone said Gustavus Adolphus Day/pastries is "an upper class thing". Could be, I wouldn't know. --90.237.12.156 (talk) 12:09, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

It's a flag day, yes. And the pastry. Anything else? --90.237.12.156 (talk) 12:45, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Many people have solemn feast dinners, remembering the king and his deeds. For many decades, if not centuries, there were candlelit marches and speeches held at public places in many towns around Sweden. This is not common anymore, but the Gustavus Adolphus pastry has become increasingly popular over the years and while it was almost only eaten in Gothenburg for most of the 20th Century, it has now spread to most other places in the kingdom too.Cold as Gray (talk) 16:34, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

References

I found the text impossible to edit without moving those huge refcite-template out of the text itself, but apparently I have made some mistake and can not locate it. I know there is some template for using this function, that's where the help text leads me, but I have never used them. --90.237.12.156 (talk) 12:20, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

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