Talk:Gundagai/Archive 3

Infobox Update

This page has had its infobox updated to [[Template:Infobox Australian Place|Infobox Australian Place. This update has been automatically preformed by TheJoshBot. The following infomation has been lost in the transition, and will need to be converted to the document prose:

Field Value
firstsurveyed	1840
river	[[Murrumbidgee River]]
pophistoric	1,921 (1911), 2,308 (1981)
railway	1886
proclaimedcity
proclaimedmunicipality	1889
highway	[[Hume Highway]]
pop2001
latandlong
firstexplored	1829

However the path, now a great article

While I wouldn't recommend the type of friction that has lead to this article being what it is, it is now a well constructed article which is also very thoroughly sourced. Shame it took so much friction to get it to this...Garrie 00:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. While there is still some cleaning up to do, it is the sort of article that we could soon put up for Featured Article Review. --Roisterer 01:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Gundagai - I am very impressed with the Gundagai Entry

— I am new to Wikipedia, having only discovered the site a month or so ago, I live in Gundagai, NSW, Australia, and I am very impressed with Gundagai's entry. Well done to whoever compiled this entry on Wikipedia. It is very detailed, and as far as I can see, contains only factual information. I am interested in Gundagai's early history and have done a lot of historical research about the town.

One thing that I would like to comment on. I note that there was a lot of discussion by and about an anonymous contributor who wanted to put information on the Gundagai site about a supposed "Coolac Massacre". I would just like to say that there never was a massacre of aborigines at Coolac. This fact is pure fantasy. I know who this "anonymous contributor"is, and she is a person who lives in the realms of fantasy. I notice that she did not give her sources for this mythical massacre. That is because there is no source! The massacre happened entirely in her imagination! Best wishes to all at Wikipedia. from Muriel.

I have jsut realised, I have the names of the other two aborigines involved in the 1852 flood (apart from Yarri and Jacky) so I will get back to wikipedia with this information. from Muriel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.47.195 (talk • contribs)

• I have left a response for this editor on her IP talk page. --VS ^talk 04:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits removing uncited material

The banned editor has commented in a now-deleted post The content re Gundagai being established as a result of the Faithful Massacre, has been removed even though it did have cites at one point. As per Wikipedia:Attribution - derived from among other things WP:RS, All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. No cites currently in place and thus I believe I am justified in deleting material. Note that WP:ATT also does not allow Unpublished synthesis of published material.

The banned editor commented Wattle just takes stuff off here that would be better left as it isnt up to her to censor here as she isnt god. Under WP:ATT any editor, even me, can remove material unsupported by verifiable sources.

If any editor, other than the banned editor, wishes me to further explain my recent edits, I am happy to do so.--Golden Wattle ^talk 03:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Your actions/edits are understood and fully supported by me--VS ^talk 04:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

• I just made some permanent deletions to the talk page history to remove what I deemed highly unsuitable comments about an individual.--Golden Wattle ^talk 05:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Population of Gundagai

The opening paragraph of the article states "At the 2001 census the population of the shire was 3,792; 80% of the shire's population live in the town.", which would give the population of the town as over 3000. Yet the infobox gives the town population as less than 2000. Do we have a definitive source for population? --Roisterer 09:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The infobox information was added by User:Orderinchaos citing the 2001 census [1]. It certainly differs from the Gundagai State of Environment report. I have checked the downloads from ABS. The basic community profile for the LGA states 3726 persons. However, ABS doc 2016.1: 1996 and 2001 Population comparisons gives Gundagai as 1,997 in 2001 and 2,064 in 1996. I would think this over rides the State of the Environment report - it is very disappointing they conflict.--Golden Wattle ^talk 23:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Photo Request

Can someone take a photo of the old railway station? It would be nice to add a transport section to this article and a photo of the old station (which hasn't seen trains for decades) would be good. JRG (talk) 04:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. Will be trying to get as many photos in the towns around S NSW and N VIC as I'm curently down from the NT ATM. -- Bidgee (talk) 06:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Image:Gundagai railway station 2006.jpg uploaded --Matilda ^talk 00:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Reference for "Gundagai in literature" section required

I recall that one of the complaints lodged by the banned editor that used to populate this page was that the Gundagai in literature section was plagiarism, noting that the list of literatuure referencing Gundagai in the article was similar to another online article. Besides the fact that two lists noting Gundagai references in literature would logically be similar, I was wondering whether someone could dig up a reference for our list? --Roisterer (talk) 23:30, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

• references added for each of the works mentioned. The plagiarism task was a furphy as a side by side analysis of the alleged source and the wikipedia article showed (in the archives of this talk page). However, referencing never hurt anyone! --Matilda ^talk 02:51, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. As the chap who originally nominated Gundagai for ACOTF, my plan was to be more actively involved but of course I find myself in the middle of a very busy couple of weeks. --Roisterer (talk) 05:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Gundagai as Australian icon

Looking at the article I notice that we haven't tackled why Gundagai is so famous in Australia. The average overseas reader would look at the article and would wonder why we were putting so much effort into a town with a population of 2000. At least they would until they get to the Gundagai in literature section and then wonder why there are so many references to Gundagai in literature. Doe anyone know any good sources to consult about this? --Roisterer (talk) 06:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Why not expand the lead section to explain why Gundagai is so iconic? I'm happy to help but I've only passed through Gundagai once, and stopped only for the standard dog on the tuckerbox photo opportunity and a browse through the clog shop. -- Longhair\^talk 06:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I could see what I can do as I'm only about an hour or so from there or I'll check out the library in Wagga for history on Gundagai. -- Bidgee (talk) 06:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

My plan was to expand the lead to explain why Gundagai is so iconic but I need a reference or two to ensure no original research. --Roisterer (talk) 07:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps not the best reference on the topic, but this Gundagai travel guide from the Sydney Morning Herald summarises nicely why Gundagai is so iconic. Bushrangers, gold rushes, Dad and Dave, Banjo Paterson, a meeting place for drovers; it all gets a mention. -- Longhair\^talk 07:23, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Iconic?

So why is Gundagai so iconic? That has not been addressed yet.

Lots of places had "... bushrangers, gold rushes, Banjo Paterson, a meeting place for drovers ...". Why the particularly special place of Gundagai in the cultural story of Australia as opposed to all those other " ...bushranger, gold rush, Banjo Paterson, a meeting place for drovers ..." places that get nary a mention? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.186.12 (talk) 09:36, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Delusional

What makes bidgee come out with such delusions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.186.116 (talk) 10:27, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

No Reference

On the article page there is no reference given for claimed meaning of the name of the river that flows through the town. The end of Murrumbidgee wasnt bingee. It was originally beeja and local Indigenous people identify the meaning of that word as other than what is erroneously claimed here. There are so many unreferenced false claims in this article it has no veracity. Also, is Gundagai very near to Albury as that is what the article claims? It isnt adjacent to Albury so that is all wrong.

I don't see where the article states Gundagai is adjacent to Albury. Also, if you have a reference for the beeja claim, please add it as it will help the article. --Roisterer (talk) 10:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Re Early Colonial Gundagai

Captain Moonlight was a name used by the 'whiteboys' of Irish leveller fame. Gundagai, where Moonlite the bushranger is now buried as a tourist attraction, was an area of whiteboy style activity in the 1820s - 40s and possibly later. Its also probable that actual Irish Whiteboys who had been transported to Australia were active in the Gundagai area. They used to whistle the tunes of the convicts to make people think they were them or coat their skins in charcoal to make out they were Aboriginal people. They would then go on ramapges nabbing squatter stock here and there or levelling assets elsewhere, and worse. The events were blamed on escaped convicts or Aboriginal people. They took particular offense at the vine dressers in the area.

Gundagai, where Moonlite is buried, also has association with the Australian explorer, Capt Charles Sturt. Sturt has his own brushes with Irish 'whiteboys', viz:

" ... In 1813 Sturt joined the army as ensign, and saw active service on the Continent and 'in Canada. For some time he served in .' Ireland. Here he passed through some stirring experiences in connection with the Whiteboy organisation, which sprang into being as the result of numerous evictions, and spread rapidly through many counties,for a time establishing a reign of terror. Sturt was called one night to defend a farmhouse attacked by the Whiteboys, and his experience on this occasion was such as to destroy all sympathy with Irish agitators. He found among the ruins of a farmhouse the dead bodies of a beautiful girl and of other members of the family. ..." The Advertiser (Adelaide, SA : 1889-1931, p.5 Wednesday 28 December 1904. Available [online] http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5034389?

Talking of Moonlites, Whiteboys and Gundagai - the town celebrates its Irishness through a festival each year plus its bridge naming is enough to raise any eyebrow. Johneen Jones —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.221.77 (talk) 05:31, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Gundagai Floods

The 1850s flood evnts also happened in the 1840s and there were also heroic rescues in the 1891 Gundagai Flood. Re the 1852 flood, one rescuer was Yarri (as well as Jacky Jacky, Long Jimmy and one other man. I put those extras on wiki). Yarri's relatives still live in the Gundagai area. Jacky Jacky was the main rescuer (established by historian Brendan O'Keefe a few years ago.) -Johneen Jones- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.221.178 (talk) 22:59, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Removal 2010 flood info

I have reverted a recent addition of text describing a December 2010 flood event that was contained in article section History/Floods. Reasons for reversion; the section it was placed in was a description of historic events from the 1850s (mainly). In fact the section focuses upon heroic acts performed by local aboriginal men during a flood event, which is a very interesting local historic story. The rather recent news report of a flood peak is not that interesting and in the history of the town not that remarkable. If the town has a long and regular history of serious flood events then the 2010 would form part of that history and would be worth hearing about. Until we know about that ongoing history, a "news" report from Dec 2010 is more news than encyclopaedic. Bleakcomb (talk) 01:06, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree Bleak. Though some tried to make a big fuss of the 2010 flood it was no big deal. I had people ring me from Europe to see if I was OK after someone rang Europe from FNQ. I think the local tourist desperates here ran with the flood to generate some identity for the place and also, there are some new to town people who had never seen a Murrumbidgee flood. The floods are the usual for the river but what isnt usual are those storages upstream that interfere with normal river dynamics. The 1974, the 1925 and the 1891 floods were big ones. The 1852 flood was made more devastating because someone built an earth dam just upstream of the town, and it burst. My family survived the 1852 flood and my grandad saved several lives in the 1891 flood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.156.61 (talk) 04:51, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Hamilton Hume and William Hovell

Hume and Hovell did not pass through the site of Gundagai in 1824. They passed considerably east if what later became Gundagai. Hume and Hovell journeyed through what later became Tumut and the future site of Blowering Dam. Although it can be said that Hume and hovell's 1824 journey of exploration did influence settlement in the Gundagai district. I think the Gundagai Wikipedia site is very good, and congratulations to all who have contributed to it.

Another comment I would like to make is the citation given of Cliff Butcher's book to the fact of William Warby being at Darbalara, (not his brother Ben) when Sturt came through in 1829. Cliff got this information from Michelle Vale's excellent book "Warby, My Excellent Guide" ISBN 0646 22356 9. The title is taken from Governor Macquarie's comment about John Warby, (father of William and Ben) when Warby Snr. guided Macquarie when the Governor visited the Camden and Campbelltown districts. Could Michelle's book be added as an extra citation?

I am not familiar with editing Wikipedia, so could someone with more knowledge make these changes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.168.62.196 (talk) 06:50, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Governor Macquarie

Governor Macquarie's comment would be the primary reference if anyone has the citation. There are several errors and things just not included in Cliff Butcher's book that it isnt that reliable a source for anything. Always best to go to the original source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.225.23 (talk) 02:53, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

'Gundagai' Placename Nonsense

The claim on the article page that the name 'Gundagai' derives from the words "gunda bandoobidgee" or whatever it is is total nonsense. The words gundagai bando bingee are words from a school war cry song. The word Gundagai derives from the Aboriginal word 'Gunda.ghar' which is about the gundaghar who were high degree Aboriginal Elders. The placename word means 'place of' and 'birds' recorded in Wiradjuri and Ngnunawal language records. The gundaghar word is also recorded at Gundagai by an esteemed ethnologist in anthropological documents on restricted access from the NSW Archives. The location 'Gundagai' has several placenames that predate the made up by colonials, Gundagai word. The Gundagai placename word seems to have migrated from an agricultural holding to the immediate north of Gundagai that was named by colonials 'Gundaghar'. As Australia was populated by Indigenous people prior to the arrival of the Europeans, most areas had Aboriginal placenemes and Gundagai is no exception to that. As Gundagai is such a significant Aboriginal place of course its real placenames are closely related to the location and what is in the landscape and adopted back into daily practice with some people taking on the name of the local features. It is pointless trying to interpret Aboriginal words from year 1950 or 2000 non Aboriginal culture and school war cry songs. They must be interpreted from within Aboriginal culture and language. In Butchers book Warby's place was named 'Mingay', Hutchinson's place was named Gundagair then an O'Brien gets inserted, (to claim O'Brien was first man at Gundagai?). In reality, first man at Gundagai was Bluey coming up out of the thistles with his red hair as recorded by Charles Sturt and later noted by the naming of the street along there as Pope St. Jack Moses also records Bluey's name in respect to his location. In Butcher's book Gundagai was on the edge of O'Briens land then on wiki the Geographical Names Board link says the name Gundagai came from the name of the Warby property, (that was named Mingay?). Its all just total nonsnese. Butcher claims the original name of Gundagai was 'The Crossing Place' but by then the crossing place was named 'Warramore'. In what Aboriginal language is that placename 'Crossing Place' or for that matter 'Warramore'? Aboriginal people did predate Europeans at the place now known as Gundagai and Butcher's book purports to be a history book which implies it does not put the first name of places as something assigned by the near to last person to live in that area, however Butcher says a European name (The Crossing Place) is the first placename for Gundagai? Throw in to that mix of placenames 'Koorangulangula' for what was Warby's place and also 'The Falls of Mutt Mutt'. 'Bewuck' is also well known as Warby's place. Whatever, Charles Sturt did dally with Warby (Whaby) at what is called today 'Mingay' (just to the north of the DonT monument), when he came through the Gundagai area in 1829 and that is recorded in Sturt's journal and the Warby's are still noted as being in the area on one of the early maps (Stapleton's), but on another map they are not there. No Europeans were the first people to live at Gundagai though as that honour goes to the real first people who lived at the location and arrived at the place many thousands of years ago. Butcher has Aboriginal people wandering through on their way to and from elsewhere but the archaeology proves different so Butcher's wandering dispossession of the original Gundarians is cute if anyone falls for it. Gundagai was a permanent settlement for Aboriginal people for eons pre the arrival of any Warby, O'Brien, Roberts, Stucky etc. or Crossing Place placename. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.113.34 (talk) 21:48, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Warby

"Thursday, Feb. l8th -Before Messrs WIL SON and WYNDEYER Benjamin Warby, was put to the bar charged with having in his possession two head of cattle the property of Messrs O'Briens, at Yass Plains; the investigation was protracted a a considerable length, caused chiefly through the irregular mode in which it was conducted. The facts themselves (at least so far as the public was concerned) were simple and may be briefly stated. Prisoner had a brother named William Warby, who wrai: t.ic.l during the present Criminal Sittings of the Supreme Court (particulars of which appeared in our last), for a system of Cattle stealing, which had been done in such a mode as to enable him to prevent detection until within a very recent period, when certain disclosures were made by parties who had been concerned with him in his nefarious practices which had led to his apprehension, and ultimate conviction. It would appear that when William Warby felt his situation getting rather warm', and expected in consequence every moment that the police would pounce upon him, he disposed of the whole of his stock, crop, &c., to the prisoner There would appear to have been upwards of fifteen hundred and fifty head of cattle, included in the purchase, which was effected by the prisoner Benjamin Warby for the valaue of £ 500 he having a proviso inserted in the deed of sale, that if any of the said cattle should he subsequently claimed by other parties as having been stolen from them the prisoner was to have an allowance made by his brother William to such value as they might amount to. A certain number of head of the Cattle in question had afterwards been sent down by Benjamin Warby as the present proprietor of the above mentioned stock, and were lodged in a paddock adjoining to Grose's Farm. Amongst the herd there grazing, two head of Cattle were found, which were distinctly sworn to, as having when calves the property of Messrs 'Briens, although they were now three years of age. The Bench came to the conclusion that the prisoner must be fully committed to take his trial for the fraudulent possession but they agreed to take bail, prisoner in £200 and two sureties in the sum of £100 each." The Sydney Monitor (NSW 1828-1838) 20 February 1836, Trove.

So Ben Warby sent some cattle 'down' that ended up at Groses Farm (Grose Hill?). In that era down was usually down to Sydney from Gundagai as people travelled downhill to get to Sydney. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.113.102 (talk) 07:56, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

More Warby

"Mr. Foster applied on the part of Benjamin Warby, that he be admitted to bail upon his own recognisance. He understood the Attorney General did not intend to oppose the application. Mr. Attorney General said-This man was tried in the court on Thursday, for receiving stolen cattle, and acquitted. The circumstances not being known to your Honor, 1 will relate them. The brother of Warby was tried last sessions for receiving stolen cattle and transported for that offence. When he was taken into custody he executed a bill of sale of his property to his brother Benjamin, who claimed all the herd, among which, were some stulen cattle. That bill of sale was afterwards set aside by an in- quest held in that court, and the pro- perty confiscated to the crown, so that the Iraud intonded was defeated. But ihe crown officers still thought it neces- sary to put Benjamin Warby upon his trial for the offence; hr was so tried. He received a very excellent character up to the time of this transaction, which character no doubt had a material weight with the jury, and to which in a great measure lie was indebted for his acquit- tal. But although he was acquitted, I hope the investigation will have a bene ficial effect. The law in the bush is, that if a notorious thief should be detected, and he openly executes a bill of sale, making over all his effects to another party for a trifling consideration, The bargain is legal. But the opinion of Mr. Justice Burton is quite the reverse, and I am quite sure 1 have heard your Honour state frequontly your opinion of the law which entirely coincided with that of Mr. Justice Burton. I am determined, in the exercise of my official duties, that on every occasion where such a bill of sale is given, if it can be proved that any of the cattle should be stolen, 1 will in all such transactions, be the station or rank in life of the party what it may, make him stand his trial before a jury of his country. The nature of the transaction is such, as to render it necessary thus to act towards every man who should be engaged in any such dealings. I will now submit to your Honour, tbat Benja- min Warby be allowed to enter into his own recognisance, (to a large amount) to appear when called upon. The Acting Chief Justice addressing the Attorney General said, I trust the notice you have given will bave the very satisfactory effect, of deterring all per- sons from being so imprudent as to place themselves in such jeopardy. I therefore consent that Benjamin Warby be admit- ted to bail." http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2204245?searchTerm=ben warby&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.113.102 (talk) 08:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Even More Warby

"Mr. William Warby, a native of the colony, and a large proprietor of stock 'on the banks of the Murrumbidgee, was placed at the bar of the' Supreme Court on Monday last, charged before Judge Dow ling and a Civil Jury, with receiving, knowing them to be stolen, seventeen calves, the property of Henry or Cornelius O'Brien, Esqs. The offdnce for which Warby was tried, occurred in December, 1830. The principal evidences for the prosecution were two approvers., who were concerned in the transaction, and who had given information against the prisoner to save themselves from being placed in jeopardy. The circumstances of the case, which occupied the court during the whole day were shortly these. A Mr. O'Brien had at that period a stockman in his employ named Beaver;-who it appeared had been carrying on on a regular system of cattle stealing in connexion wjth others. At the time laid in the idictment, Beaver came to the approver Glover and requested _him to assist him in drafting Mr. O'Brien's cattle. Glover consented and assisted him without remuneration, acting on the principle that "one good turn deserves another." Altogether they drafted seventeen calves from Mr. O'Brien's herd, and drove them to Warby's stockyard, who branded them with his own brand; these cattle Glover had often seen since, and two were sworn to by him as the property of Mr. O'Brien, which had been found in Warby's herd bearing his brand at the time of his apprehension. The evidence of this witness was corroborated in all. the important particulars by the other approver; an assigned servant to Warby swore to the fact of these men bringing a number of calves to his master's stock yard about the time mentioned in the inidictment. The defence set up was, that the calves sworn to at the Police Office at Yass, were the prcduce 'of cows which Warby had purchased from a person who had been in his service, and ,who had received them from Mr. O'Brien in payment of an account. It was alleged that the approvers being, dishonest men, who admitted that they were cattle-stealers, ought not to be believed. The prisoner has for a long time back borne a very good character, to which the prosecutor, Mr. O'Brien bore ample testimony, so high was the opinion he had entertained of the prisoner's character for honesty, that he would not for a tong time put any trust in "the charges made against him until he was convinced by seeing an animal which he knew to belong' to himself in the prisoner's herd, bearing the 'prisoner's brand. The learned Judge summed up, and the Jury retired for a few miniutes; on their return they found the prisoner guilty. Sentence of transportation to Van Dicman's Land for 14 years was then passed. The prisoner at the time of his comniittal possessed a herd of 2000 cattle, which will most probably be confiscated to the Crown. We understand that there are no less than six charges of cattle-stealing brought against the prisoner, on one of which he will be again tried at the next sittings of the Criminal Court. It appeared, also, that when Warby understood that his malpractices had been discovered, he made over the whole of his property to his brother, and arrangement to that effect was drawn up by Mr. Francis Stephen, and signed by both parties. The agreement contained a proviso, that all cattle which mnight be claimed as stolen, should not be included ia said agreemeni. B. Warby, brother of the prisoner, has' since been cpmmitted on a charge of attempting to dispose of some stolen cattle, 'wnich' he had taken from his brother's herd." http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31717697?searchTerm=william warby murrumbidgee&searchLimits=sortby — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.113.102 (talk) 08:29, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

William Warby

"... Cross-examined : Had seen Wm. Warby on the station in 1833, and P. Suttle ; the latter was a stockman to a neighbour ; the Black Swamp runs towards the Wianga Range ; the swamp is not more in length than a mile and a half..." http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12891866?searchTerm=william warby murrumbidgee&searchLimits=sortby — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.113.102 (talk) 08:43, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Free Pardon

"GOVERNMENT NOTICE. No. 222. Colonial Secretary's Office, 14th Sept., 1843. A Memorandum of Free Pardon has been ordered for William Warby, per Siren, until her Majesty's pleasure be known. By His Excellency's command, J. E. BICHENO." http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2952159?searchTerm=william warby &searchLimits= — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.113.102 (talk) 08:52, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Ben Warby Airds 1831 Missing convict

"...1. Brown James, Mangles, 34, Ploughman, Suffolk, 5 ft 6 1/2, blue eyes, flaxen hair, very freckled comp, from Mr. B. Warby, of Airds..." http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2200427?searchTerm=warby&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc%7C%7C%7Cl-decade=183 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.113.102 (talk) 09:07, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

More re the Warbys and the Cattle

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2202835?searchTerm=b warby&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-decade=183|||l-category=Article%7Ccategory%3AArticle

It seems William Warby was at Gundagai first but that when the cattle were stolen and sent to Ben Warby an agreement had been drawn up that Ben Warby would then take over William Warby's land (at Gundagai). William Warby then got sent to VDL for cattle stealing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.113.102 (talk) 09:18, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Ben Warby's Claim to the Cattle Overturned in 1836

"On Thursday last, the question of the validity of the claim of Benjamin Warby to his brother's (William Warby convicted ' of cattle-stealing) cattle, purchased by the former under peculiar circumstances, was tried at the Supreme Court House, before a Sheriff's Court, when the Jury (composed of Magistrates and merchants) found that the sale was fraudulent. The cattle, upwards of two thousand, were confiscated to the Crown, and will bo sold shortly by public auction." http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28654776?searchTerm=b warby&searchLimits=sortby=dateAsc|||l-decade=183|||l-category=Article%7Ccategory%3AArticle — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.113.102 (talk) 09:48, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Where Sturt Visited

Sturt went to Mingay, not Darbalara. That is very easily gleaned from Sturt's journal. Darbalara was in a different district to Mingay but there were no districts near Gundagai then as they were all beyond the limits of occupation. Butcher's books says Mingay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.113.102 (talk) 10:04, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Warby's Inn

Where today's Darbalara is in the previous district of Murrumbidgee, (over the river from Warby's Station). From M.1.831 Surveyor Stapleton 1833, 'To Tumut River and Warby's station', State Records NSW. The Surveyor General's Maps and Plans.

Where the inn was in 1833 indicates a river crossing which there was at that location but there was also one further downstream at Warramore in 1829. Whoever had control of the riverside could offer a crossing place that perhaps was a cheaper option than the opposition's fees. If anyone was wanting to travel up the Tumut Valley it made sense to cross into the Tumut Valley. By 1833 Shelly et al were in the Tumut Valley. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.113.102 (talk) 10:52, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Reference 7 on Article Page

Reference 7 says "7.^ New South Wales Geographical Names Board and Butcher, Cliff (2002). Gundagai:A Track Winding Back. Gundagai, NSW: self-published. pp. 8–10. ISBN 0-9586200-0-8. Note Butcher states that William Warby, not his brother Ben, was associated with the Gundagai area. Ben Warby was not an early settler although the land was held in Ben's name."

In the 1820s in the Gundagai area, a licence fee was paid for any land being used but no land was owned by Europeans as the area had not been opened up for settlement. Why would a licence fee be paid by Ben Warby who lived in Appin (Campbelltown), when the land user and occupant was William Warby? The sentence that reference 7 refers to on the article page needs to be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.221.140 (talk) 21:13, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Sale of Seized Cattle

"SALE OF CATTLE.

Thirty-nine Head of horned Cattle and one Horse, which have been seized by the Police of this District as the property of William Warby, convicted of receiving stolen cattle, will be sold at the Market-place, Campbell Town, on Monday, the 6th day of June, at Twelve O'Clock, noon, for the benefit of His Majesty's Government.

By order of the Magistrate. John McAlister Chief Constable Police Office Campbelltown May 27th, 1836"

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/36855280? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.221.140 (talk) 22:21, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Under Seizure by the Crown

"Colonial Secretary’s Office Sydney, June 7th, 1836 To be sold by Public Auction on the 14th day of July, next at Goulburn under seizure by the Crown About 1000 head of Cattle, 17 Horses, a stack of Wheat containing about two hundred bushels, Farming Utensils and other effects, late belonging to William Warby. convicted of Felony. Terms of Sale and further particulars may be known on application at the office of the Crown Solicitor in Sydney, or at the Court House in Yass. By His Excellency's Command, ALEXANDER M'LEAY.” http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2204774? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.221.140 (talk) 23:20, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

McAlisters "Valued Employees of William Warby"

"Valued employees of William Warby's Mr & Mrs Thomas and Caroline McAlister, were to go on and and become long term residence of the Tumut area. Caroline is reported to be the first or second white women in the area. Whilst living there she gave birth to a beautiful daughter they called Elizabeth on the 10th May, 1830, who of course would then have been the first white baby born in the region." http://www.blowering.com/darbalar.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.221.140 (talk) 23:59, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Cattle Stealing

"CATTLE STEALING.

The extent to which this crime has been carried in the interior seems absolutely incredible. Owing to the exertions of Henry O'Brien, Esq, J. P., of Yass, all the ramifications of the system have been laid open to the public as they exist in the neighbourhood of Murrumbidgee, and Monaroo; and we doubt not if equal exertions were made it would be found that its is carried on to an equal amount :in other parts of the colony. Some idea of its extent in that neighbourhood may be formed from the fact, that in the herds of Messrs. H. and C. O'Brien, which run together at the Murrumbidgee, there was an actually deficiency in the gross amount. between the muster of 1834 and that of1835, of upwards of 300 head; leaving the increase which ought to have taken place during that period out of the question altogether. The exertions of Mr. O'Brien, and the number of depredators who have through means of him been brought to justice, will check, if they do not altogether put a stop to the system. Those who have managed to escape will, we doubt not, be more careful how they commit themselves in future, and the examples which have been made, will, we trust, deter others from entering on or persevering in such a dangerous course. Our thanks, as well as the thanks of the community, are due to Mr. O’Brien for the conduct which at the cost of his own time, and to the injury of his own interests, as well as at the risk of his own safety, he has so nobly pursued. The settlers in the districts of Murrumbidgee, Monaroo, Yass, and Goulburn, who have so materially benefitted from his exertions cannot; we think, in justice to themselves, refrain from coming forward to mark their sense of Mr. O'Brien's services in a manner which will show to the world that they know and appreciate the benefits that have derived from his successful exertions." http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31718018? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.221.140 (talk) 01:35, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Iconic Gundagai

“ … His mind races swiftly over the ceaseless grind of training, the fun on leave, the songs they sang. "Then no more, will I roam "When I'm heading right for home Along the road to Gundagai." No he didn't come from Gundagai; no one ever does. But to him Gundagai means the surf at Bondi, football in the Winter, a plain job in a big city, a pretty girl, a mother whose heart is soon to be broken. Some of the boys must get back to tell the truth. Someone must be brave enough to see that we start again, and start from scratch. If I hadn't got hit by that damnation thing I might have been able to do it myself. I'd see there was a change. There'd have to be! His thoughts are weakening now. The body of the young Australian, full of the strength, the sunshine, and the hope of a new, vigorous nation, convulses for a few short moments. Then it is still. Not far away the sound of guns shattering the quiet air. Back home, another youngster tall, fair, and bronzed walks into a recruiting depot. "How soon can I join up?" he says. “ http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/25917245? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.221.140 (talk) 03:55, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Beyond The Limits of Occupation

I just read the note after the "Conversely it also meant that land occupiers were not always under the control of British law.[citation needed]" on the article page. I altered the sentence a bit but re the citation note, the Myall Creek perpetrators were found. At Gundagai the massacre murderers were not identified by Major Nunn. Some 'land occupiers' occupied land "beyond the limits of occupation" with government consent but officially, the ordinary settler was not supposed to occupy land in the area south of the plough mark near Binalong. I guess if the ordinary settler tried to those already occupying land under other patronage, hunted them off. Such areas were/are 'wastelands' till opened for 'modern' civilisation. The location that came to be named 'Gundagai' progressed from being a 'Fisher King' site to one controlled by the local robber barons seeking exorbitant toll fees to use their river crossings along the land they controlled on the river frontages. This resulted in several river crossing places appearing at Gundagai as capitalist competition went in to high gear. If travellers could not pay the toll in a newly occupied land where money was not always the currency, then they were turned back or disappeared. About all Charles Sturt's men could do at the place Sturt referred to as 'Pondebadgery' (Gundagai) in 1829 was go fishing. Johneen Jones — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.117.32 (talk) 21:53, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Mrs Clegg Murdered. Wm Warby Present

"From a Liverpool Correspondent -"It is lamented,that scarcely a week passes without our reading, in the public prints, the detail of some horrid murder ; and the proceedings of an Inquest, held on Thursday, Saturday, and Sunday last, to enquire into the cause of the death of the late Mrs. Clegg, on the Liverpool Road, from the determination in the part of nearly all the witnesses to withold the truth, prove most conclusively, that in this unpleasant case, nothing but the perseverance of the Jury, unwearied as it was through very protracted examinations, could have elicited such facts as to come to the following verdict.---"That the deceased met her death from blows, and a fall received from her husband, on Tuesday the 6th instant, caused by William Warby who was present during such blows and fall." The Coroner did not consider such a verdict warranted the committal of the parties to the Criminal Court." 1825 News of the Week — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.240.171 (talk) 07:12, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

More about Wm Warby in the trial of John Clegg, here: 1825 Supreme Criminal Court — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.240.171 (talk) 07:22, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Editing Question

Does anyone object if I edit placenames on the article page, such as Mingay to 'Mingay'; and quotations such as "valued employees" to valued employees which will italicise the quote; so that placenames and quotes on the article page look different. johneen jones — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.221.88 (talk) 06:43, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Etymology

I have improved the etymology section on the article page. I havent completed it yet as some of my references are somewhere so it may take a short time to locate them. There is other content to place in that section too as though these days we just call the place 'Gundagai' in past times it had several names. johneen jones — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.117.138 (talk) 22:03, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Concerns re Aboriginal Ceremonial ground at Gundagai.

As well as adding placename, ghost, cultural and other content on the article page the last few weeks, yesterday I added the Aboriginal ceremonial ground. It had already been noted here by someone else, (taken from the 'State of the Environment' Report), saying that the large Aboriginal circle was at Gundagai but after a discussion with the NSW Dept of Environment archaeologist yesterday I became concerned for the safety of the full ceremonial ground that includes the large circle. I notified that ground to the Department in 2001 and received a receipt for that notification. I assumed that the Department put the bollards around the large circle working from the map I made them aware of. I was told yesterday by the archaeologist who put those bollards in place and surveyed the large circle that he was not aware of what I had notifed which is very, very odd given the ceremonial ground is so significant and the department is charged with protecting Aboriginal sites in NSW. I also provided Gundagai Shire Council (Glen Moore) with a map of the ceremonial ground in 2001 so GSC is fully aware of what is where so 'due diligence' will be followed no doubt? I know where the things are as my great grandparents, (the 'Trues' as noted in the Flood section on the article page), lived almost on top of the large circle in the 1850s then along the track. My Mum pointed out where things were to me in the 1960s but at that point up till 2001, I had no proof. Then I found the documents in 2001 when Gundagai Council were going to tizz up the Old Gundagai site and those intentions came to a halt after I told the heritage professional in charge of the funding (Kylie Winkworth) of my document find one day when Kylie and I headed off to find some coffee in Tumut. I hope by posting the source of the documents here, the site is further protected by more people knowing of it. Maybe even the NSW Department of the Environment will take more care of the very, very large and amazing, Gundagai Aboriginal Ceremonial Ground that covers all of North Gundagai as noted in the Draft Gundagai LEP that is currently in Sydney being processed but which now seems to be held up again. These big ancient ceremonial sites are unique and priceless and not something that needs to be slowly (or quickly) lost through ignorance or apathy or just other small town dynamics. Johneen Jones-Gundagai — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.113.39 (talk) 06:44, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Irrelevant Mythology, Fantasy Etc

I thought that articles in Wikipedia are supposedly based on fact, not on mythology and fantasy! Recent contributions just don't make sense. Very confusing and nothing to do with the factual history and background of the town of Gundagai. I have read through the article several times and still cannot make sense of it! What has Gundagai to do with Greek and/or Roman mythology, celtic legends, supernatural spirits etc. etc.

Below is an example. There are other bits and pieces as well in the article which are very unsettling. I think the whole article now demeans the credibility of Wikipedia.

Perhaps someone with more experience of editing in Wikipedia can delete this fantastical rubbish. (signed) Graeme Healy.

"There is a large anthropomorphic figure in the landscape at Gundagai.[27] The figure has a kangaroo or dog like head and is several kilometres in length. It has hindquarters similar to that of an emu but with a long tail and it appears to be sitting on a box. The image faces to the west and its head is near the Dog on the Tuckerbox area at Gundagai. This primary landscape figure marked out by the course of the Murrumbidgee River at Gundagai, is replicated in some Sydney Rock Engravings. The 'Gundagai' placename meaning further refers to the reason for the bend in the Murrumbidgee River near the Gundagai showground at Gundagai and to the mythological landscape epic at Gundagai. Bunyips, understood to be where streams flood out of their usual channel in wet seasons flooding surrounding land but also drowning anyone caught on the wrong side of them, are recorded on the Gundagai floodplain; opposite 'Kimo'; and at the junction of the Tumut and Murrumbidgee rivers.[28] The Kimo bunyip is really interesting as it is accompanied by a large slash in the earth's mantle out of which the 'Jindalee Volcanics' extruded. [29] The area is also identified as Jones Creek diorite. 'Kimo' is 'Mt Kimo', named for one of the Nereids, (Nereids, Cymatolege or 'Kymo' [30]), that occupies the midpoint of the 'Kimo Range', facing Gundagai High School. 'Kimo' is also known as Nargun. Charles Sturt in Chapter Two of his Murrumbidgee exploration journal,[31] likened the 'verdant' Gundagai valley as having Diana of Nemi site parallels as recorded in James George Frazer's 'The Golden Bough',[32] when Sturt journeyed through the Gundagai area in 1829-1830. Oak groves and muses featured in some succeeding cultural depictions of Gundagai and placenames such as that of Virgil Street that ascends Gundagai's Mount Parnassus lead to sites in the local landscape that for example invoke Virgil's 'Aeneid', viz ... there the fearsome cavern of the awesome Sybil lies, Whence came her prophecies. The name 'Warramore', is given for Stuckey's Station in 1836 at today's Gundagai.[33] 'Warramore' is linked to 'Warrawen', which is the large cut in the western side of the Monaro Plateau from near which western travelling geological fault lines begin, and 'Warragong', which is the section of the beginning of the Australian Alps in the Gundagai region upon which snow sometimes falls. The junction of the Murrumbidgee and Tumut Rivers is named 'Bewuck' to note the numerous Murray Cod found in that area.[34] As Gundagai is a place of significant Irish, Scottish and English settlement post the arrival of the Europeans, Celtic and English landscape understanding or dindsenchas is also evident at Gundagai. The story of the 'Ghost of Kimo Hill', (in 'Gundagai Ghosts' below), is one example of this. Gundagai also had a ward system of Municipal Governance till recent times.[35] 'West Ward' at Gundagai is still delineated by West Street. The ward system originates from Scotland and Eastern England where wards, that are watchful spirits that protect settlements from internal troubles and external dangers, ... form nightly a ring of benevolent spiritual protection against harmful spirits. Once the spirits are driven from the landscape, the protection is no longer forthcoming and the settlement is open to psychic ills.[36] Gundagai's rich history of song, verse, epic sagas and notable events beginning first with that of Australian Aboriginal cultural heritage then on to multiple other ontologies with the arrival of the Europeans; that are also remembered within placenames and recalled throughout landscape is evidence of the rich tapesty that is Gundagai today. ALL I CAN SAY IS -!!!!???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.168.63.157 (talk) 22:52, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Tsk

Graeme Healy, not everyone in this world understands many things. What bit troubles you most and why? Its all referenced and where there are links to wikipedia content they are easily clicked. Do you not know Aboriginal content and Roman and Greek landscape content and Celtic mythological content? Do you not know Gundagai very well? Some of the content is underscored online via Wikipedia links. Gundagai sits on top of a hill named Mt Parnassus. Why a hill with that name in inland NSW? Why a location called Reno at Gundagai? Did they have quickie marriages and divorces at Gundagai's Reno? Do you not know about earth vapors and phosphoresence? Keep reading and clicking wikipedia links as there is an education to be had from wikipedia. I bet if you do a search for leprechaun you will even find that on wiki and Gundagai had heaps of them running up and down our main street a couple of weeks ago. At Gundagai, ghosts are important. Some time back the local High School was instructing students in them and their placement in literature and recently the local paper was asking for local ghost stories to be forwarded to them. Cheerio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.221.188 (talk) 09:36, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

WhoIs

Can I just note that the IP address for the 'Irrelevant Mythology, Fantasy Etc' post is similar to the one for the earlier Hume and Hovell disputed entry that when I asked for cites re where that person said re the route Hume and Hovell took it wasnt forthcoming. After that challenge I issued that wasnt responded to, I then entered some more cites for Hume and Hovell on the article page including a recent one by the Assistant Bishop plus other cites. I tried the ip number for the above entry on WhoIs and geolocate etc. Apologies to 'Graeme Healy' if you are a real person but I withdraw that apology if you are just trolling, trying to denigrate anything you can. If that person has positive content to add to the Gundagai article go ahead. If you are the Hume and Hovell route disputing person where are the cites re where H & H went that predate the last 50 years? If you have those cites, please post them. You can put them in a discussion page post if you like as you seem to know how to post entries on the discussion page and I will transfer them to the article page if you like. The blue words are links so if you click them they will open up another page that might help you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.221.188 (talk) 10:02, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Hume and Hovell Discussion Page Entry

This is the request on the Hume and Hovell discussion page entry:

I am not familiar with editing Wikipedia, so could someone with more knowledge make these changes?

This is the request on the discussion page entry for 08.10.11:

Perhaps someone with more experience of editing in Wikipedia can delete this ...

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.221.188 (talk) 10:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Graeme Healy Entry

Graeme Healy identifies as a non contributor to the Gundagai page and is offering nothing positive to the article with troll-like comments. All entries referred to on the article page have references and links to other Wikipedia content such as cultural material are included. The similarities between the earlier Hamilton Hume and William Hovell entry and the recent one by Graeme Healy can be seen. I removed the duplicate copy of Graeme Healys comments. He is invited to contribute to the article page if he has positive content to add to it. Ngundool (talk) 14:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)--Ngundool (talk) 14:38, 10 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ngundool (talk • contribs) 14:33, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Minerva, and Diana and the Golden Apples

Sacred landscape marriages are pretty important hence Gundagai's Ovid St and Ovid's Metamorphoses. Minerva and Diana (Artemis of the Eucalypts), were involved with such stuff and the story of 'Diana and the Golden Apples' came from that but also feature in Celtic belief. In Gundagai's context the golden apples are more likely in reference to gold nuggets as too are daffodils and the local story of Daphne. If none of all that makes sense its a non-scientific means of using literature to explain geological formation at Gundagai sung about in the 'Grand Old Hills of Gundagai' by Ada Whalan Smith, and concerning which a far wiser and learned Shire Council declared Daphne aka 'Flower Hill', as a cultural area on which residents could wander and contemplate (the classics?) while viewing the native vegetation. Science was only invented in around 1820 and western religion says that belief system meant the world was around 3000 years old so though more than one explanation of the sacred were allowed, the world was just 3000 years old and all gods existed under the umbrella of the one God monothesism. Gundagai's Flower Hill sits along and to the west of the Mt Parnassus serpentine tor, and the Mt Parnassus geolgy is dated at around six million years old. No doubt if local residents also found a golden daffodil while doing a cultural roam over Gundagai's 'Flower Hill' (also an area of intense volcanism similar to the serpent mound in Ohio), then the cultural excursion would have paid off handsomely. Many miners found a lot of gold on 'Flower Hill' as that hill was covered with numerous tents all over it when it was being mined but the numerous earth tremors that rattled through Gundagai over several years in the 1870s likely sent them all running to a gold field that was less dangerous, particularly for underground miners. Gundagai is relarkable for its nomenclature. - George Augustus Robinson 1844.)

To me what is remarkable is that local Aboriginal people had the landscape epic at Gundagai recorded in their lore and law and given that western science didnt begin to around 1820, Australian Aboriginal narrative stories far predated that and far predated scientific explanations for stuff. I will put up an entry re Kelsie Dadds Gundagai area findings when I find it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.156.146 (talk) 23:37, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Cadell and Garland

Cadell and Garland were granted a depasteuring licence for 'Darbylane [sic] in 1838. Darbylane is Darbalara and it was also Capt Cadell's goal to get a steamer to Darbylara to get their wool clip. I saw somewhere he did get to Darbylara in the steamer 'Albury'. The Cadell at Darbylane would not have been Capt (Francis) Cadell as the Captain didn't get to Australia till after that but may have been a close relative. Darbylara/Darbylane is at the Junction of the Tumut and Murrumbidgee Rivers (Bewuck).

Later: It was William Cadell at Darbalane/Darbalara.144.139.221.192 (talk) 07:31, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Snakes

'Slight Smile' took out the snakes tales section on the article page without discussion or any note here about that. I have replaced it as snake tales are very much a feature of country towns in Australia, especially at this time of the year with warnings about how deadly brown snakes are), and particularly at Gundagai so snake tales give a bit of a glimpse into what Gundagai is about. The link to the ABC (the national broadcaster) photo shows the national interest in what snakes do and snake stories are as relevant as are bunyip stories that also attract national interest. I walk everywhere and often encounter snakes including around our local Visitor Centre and nearby. Its handy for any visitors to Gundagai to be aware of where they put their feet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.117.210 (talk) 00:23, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't realise it was folklore. "The black snake was the wife of the brown" looked like someone trying to damage the article. We get that a lot. SlightSmile 00:59, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

That is OK. I ran that phrase past the local Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Officer (NSW Department of the Environment), that I was doing some stuff with a few years back and we both blinked. When it was realised what the phrase likely meant post those black snake eating brown snake photos appearing we both thought that might be what the phrase might be referring to given the largely uncommented so unknown and not thought about, volcanics in this area. I need to put 144.134.113.86 (talk) 06:21, 20 October 2011 (UTC)the page cite up for the George Bennett comment plus the volcanic stuff on another day as I need to find it (the academic papers) too. I will go and find the page number for Bennett right now or I will forget to do it. Cheerio.144.134.113.86 (talk) 06:21, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Previewing

Could the editors from the ACT in th 144.13x.xxx.xxx IP range please consider using the Show preview button before saving to check your edits as you are badly cluttering up this articles edit history page and the Recent Changes log.

• I would also suggest trying the Edit tab at the top of the page as you can then make edits to all sections of the page, and then save in one go rather than editing each section separately, in many small edits, as seems to be happening at present.
• Please take a look at Wikipedia:Citing sources as references of 'bare' Internet links without titles, page number, journal names, publisher, publication date, access dates etc. are a long term problem. (see wp:linkrot). If a source is moved for example, it is much harder to relocate without any identifying data. You can also use each reference more than once if needed, shortening the reference listing. It is also harder to verify the information from the source is true, and as presented in the source.
• I also strongly suggest registering. I did so recently after over 2 years and over 12,000 edits as an IP editor. It doesn't hurt and has many advantages that make editing easier. - 220 of ^Borg 10:36, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Extraneous material moved to Gundagai Aboriginal lore

Having looked over the article's edit history, and comments on this and some editors discussion pages, I have carried out a very severe editing to bring the article back to and encyclopedic and more relevant state - I have taken out recent additions of material on Aboriginal lore, ghosts, spiritual and phenomenological matters, and placed this in a separate article on Gundagai Aboriginal lore.Garyvines (talk) 03:01, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Hilarious

Thank you gary. I have been hoping a blinkered boffins would get going. Its all an indication of the silliness that also reckons large circles are bases of mills and that small circles are on top of large ones not almost a mile away. The July objector went to Y.9 at school and turned up complimentating people who have contributed here? It seems that objector does some gender bending too going on the false name. Why would anyone imagine I would sit here typing in all the different newspaper names. I am no wiki slave. The refs were collected at the other end ages back by who I was sharing it with so it all served its purpose so you could perhaps have a new job as chief tidyuper of those who are several eons ahead of you? For someone who professes no interest in Gundagai you found an interest did you or is the interest just in being mr tidyuper. No one yet has told me why that small circle is on top of the large one? I was down there last week and there are some new additions too. I just cannot work out why that small circle on the large one. There was no small circle there the numerous times I looked pre 2005. There was also no base of a mill. That is archaeology's misaligned neural pathways of which it seems there are many. Oh well, I had better go back to Canberra, (the hilly track). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.156.60 (talk) 06:31, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Gary Vines, stop vandalising the entry that notes Edward Trues heroism award

There is no need to be vandalising the Edward True Royal Humane Society of Australasia bravery award entry gary vines, so dont. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.156.60 (talk) 06:47, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I have again undone the edit as the material added was extraneous. the contribution of edward True and the royal Humane Society reference was retained. If True and his deed is sufficiently notable, then a separate article might be more appropriate to detail the history of this event.Garyvines (talk) 07:16, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Why Has Gary Vines Mangled the Article Page?

Gary Vines has put lightning on some new Gundagai article page in with Aboriginal lore. Lightning is a natural phenomenon, its not just Aboriginal???????? That is one example of how the Gundagai article page has been mangled. If Cootamundra Council consider the spirit dog significant enough to put an image of it in the new windows for their Council Chamber, that content is significant to the Gundagai/Coota area but mr vines moves it. The dogs are also natural phenomena being about the fight in the landscape between two landmasses that gave rise to the Eastern Highlands but Mr Vines shoves it all off when he professes no interest in Gundagai. Once those dogs get noted in stained glass windows as at Coota and in dog monuments as at the Five Mile, they are no longer ephemeral. THAT dog (that dog) also exists right up to where he enters and leaves this continent. gary vines can you stop messing Gundagai's story up when as you profess you have no interest in Gundgaai, it surely follows you wouldnt know much about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.156.60 (talk) 07:11, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps the discussion of Lightening might warrant a separate article. similarly, information on the Spirit dog might be worth its own article which could be referenced from the Gundagai page. The purpose of Wikipedia is othlined in What Wikipedia is not and in particular, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Garyvines (talk) 07:22, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

That is all your personal opinion gary vines and as you have previously told me you have no interest in Gundagai you are not in tune with Gundagai's bends and twists or have any acquired knowledge re Gundagai's cultural story. The bushranger info is particularly relevant as the Old Gaol here is being resurrected with a lot of assistance from NSW Heritage and as it was the main gaol in southern NSW, its numerous customers, especially in colonial times are particularly relevant as are Gundagai's links to the Kelly Gang, the events that happened in this area post 1820till the road south of here to save Melb was opened up etc. By you taking out links from Gundagai to the colonisation of the rest of SE Australia you are putting wiki in the position that it presents isolated small town summaries with no wider story of the colonial opening up of SE Australia or the events that led to other things. In one of those archaeology texts that Iain Davidson insisted we buy in Arch 101 it has that not much is known of this part of Oz and little wonder. It was deliberately hidden. Your mob know a lot more now I have outed some aspects of Gundagai, and Gundagai arch has moved on from bases of mills into pimples on pumpkin archaeology(!) so I suppose any step out of total decieit is an improvement. Can you not now impose what I consider you uninformed personal opinion on the article page here as it wrecks stuff. You can tidy the article page up but dont go removing content that you do not understand the context of. Hiding content in some other article is the same as making it not readily available so its best just left on the article page but presented in a better manner. Talk about a dog fight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.156.60 (talk) 07:43, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

The unencyclopedic material has been removed again, for the reasons given by Gary Vines above. Wikipedia articles do not and should not have a "Welcome to country". Your material belongs in a private blog, not in an encyclopedia. If you continue to edit tendentiously, you will be blocked from editing. You have been warned-- Mattinbgn (talk) 08:55, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Why are you leaving me threatning messages for on an Australian carriage service? I'd like a reason ty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.117.164 (talk) 10:14, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry but enough is enough. Your "blogging" doesn't belong here, you were banned from editing Wikipedia for a year back in 2006 but you breached the Arbcom ruling which means you shouldn't be editing here fullstop. Mattinbgn didn't leave "threatning messages on an Australian carriage service", please cease making such accusations. Bidgee (talk) 10:41, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Lies

Why the lies above? "Bidgee" you should be more polite but also not tell lies. When did wiki begin supporting vandalism such as on the article page? Mattinbgn did threaten me and I feel threatened so was that the intent of that message? What happened to politeness etc? Are you now supporting the nonsense Matt directed at me? gary vines is right in saying the article page does need tidying up but not the way he did it. He just created a huge muddle and he has already admitted some of what he deleted was done inappropriately because he doesnt understand the context of some of the content. I left gary vines a note on the discussion page of an article he edits and the vandalism here was the immediate response. Gary Vines was aware of this page as he added some content to the Gundagai bridge after I discussed with him some content re the Aboriginal circle here a few months back. What was on the Gundagai article page was no issue at all to gary vines in those intervening months, till today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.117.165 (talk) 10:57, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Poor bridge Info

Vines has put nil in the bridge info to say where the iron for that bridge came from which is very worth noting. Also nil why the naming of the two bridges (Prince Alfred and Sheahan bridges) is also notable and what it all represents in situ. Just putting bland facts with no accompanying context wrecks wiki but this is what happens when some people edit here. Archaeology gets further and further distanced from the mainstream in which case public funding for many of archaeologys ridiculous endeavours need to be further severly curtailed as does all heritage courses infiltrated by offshore nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.225.47 (talk) 22:52, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

created artcle for Prince Alfred Bridge Garyvines (talk) 01:36, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Semiprotected

I've semiprotected this talk page for a week due to the anonymous user who has been editing tendentiously here. Per the relevant ArbCom case, this person is banned from editing without a username. Anyone (except the user in question) who wishes to edit this talk page but cannot has two options: s/he can ask me at my talk page, or s/he can go to WP:RFED, which exists to allow people to leave comments for talk pages that they cannot edit. Nyttend (talk) 02:26, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

sub page for Yarri

I created a new article for Yarri (Wiradjuri), given this has been the subject of various editing challenges in the past. So far it is what was in the main Gundagay Article under floods, with some better references.Garyvines (talk) 04:04, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Etymology of name

Previously, the Origin of Name section included the statement 'In that context "Gundagai" means "place of birds"', which may or may not be accurate, and '"cut with a hand-axe behind the knee"', which may or may not be accurate. However, these were followed by the statement 'Combining the two meanings results in "the place of birds near where there is a large bend in the Murrumbidgee River that was caused by a cut in the back of the knee".' No authoritative support is provided, and this type of combination of meanings is highly unlikely. When there are competing etymologies, usually one of them or neither of them is correct, not both. This is not an issue of local knowledge or knowledge of the relevant aboriginal languages; it's just linguistic common sense. If the birds etymology were correct, then perhaps "gunda" would mean "place of" and "gai" would mean "birds"; if the "cut" etymology were correct, then perhaps "gunda" would mean "knee" and "gai" would mean "cut". but the combination would require both parts to have both meanings. That isn't impossible, but it is pretty unlikely. If it's true, it needs an authoritative source - reference to someone who is an expert in the language and can confirm that that sort of poetic double-meaning is actually correct. The comment does not have a citation, and appears to be simply someone's attempt to reconcile two incompatible meanings. At best it's original research. Please do not include this sort of hypothesising without a reputable source. I removed the questionable sentence (and the following one, which depended on it), but it was reinstated by an anonymous editor who appeared not to have understood the issue. I didn't remove either of the "birds" or "knee" possible etymologies as you claimed. I left both of those in, but removed the sentence that attempted to *combine* them, without support. Please don't simply revert the edit; if you have support for the combination, include it. If you don't have any support, don't put it back in. Runox (talk) 14:00, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Tangled Vine Nonsense

"Johneen Jones, JJones, and various other real and pseudonym names posts on Gundagai matters extensively - Apart from the spammers, this is the only completely banned poster to ozarch. The poster can get quite rude when challenged. The major themes are the conspiracy about denied aboriginal massacre sites, and the spiritual significance of the dog - apparently an ancient aboriginal lore. You will find posts on various forums, and especially feedback and comments on other blogs, news sites etc. the poster was also banned from Wikipedia for edit wars and abuse also on Gundagai topics. the Gundagai issue became more than just arguments in virtual space when the roads authority had to spend thousands more to investigate what were probably completely spurious claims of sacred sites etc." ? You silly thing. You accepted that link and image I sent yet you go on like that. Also, I was NOT the first person to note the Coolac Massacre in relation to the Coolac Bypass That was first mentioned and published by the first Archs (Naden whoever?), after they spoke with a Coolac longtime resident so you are defaming me there and there is no need for that is there. The reality is that Gundagai is a significant Aboriginal Place as Jacki Taylor (RMS Arch), also says so instead of bad mouthing me, why don't you explore the topic more. If you do a north of Gundagai search on Trove, try Yasf (south of Yass), using the old form of writing double 's's'. Some arch efforts are really sad. Ask too why the significant Aboriginal Place, i.e. Gundagai and its environs, raises so much political origin bile from some archs? I was going to have a normal burial here at Gundagai when I die but after experiencing the archaeology 'profession' and given the very high significance of Aboriginal Gundagai, I will now be cremated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.116.150 (talk) 09:49, 15 October 2015 (UTC) Johneen Jones - Gundagai

What

What or who is Runox? The dude with the cut in the back of the knee is one of the feathered feet, clever men you galah. Do you not know much about Gundagai (or Australia), and its First Nation culture. It appears not. For there to be a knee there is thus also a leg + one more leg, that lead to a trunk and a head and arms. Runox, can you not inflict wiki with your one-eyed cultural perspective when you are talking about a significant Aboriginal place these days known as 'Gundagai'. There are many cultural perspectives in this world but you are choosing to try to push in on significant Aboriginal Gundagai with your one-eyed nonsense. Please be more learned with what you post here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.147.138.59 (talk) 08:16, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I just read the entry above this one. 'Knee' is darra. That then leads on to the next bit that complete the name of a high god. The authority for 'cut in the back of a knee with a tomahawk is the NSW Department of Education, Gundagai High School, 1964. Of course that would be correct which it is. Some people claim that 'Murrumbidgee' meran s'big water' but an Aboriginal person likely made that statement in connection to the fact that the Murrumbidgee in flood = big water. The word used to be murrumbeeja and that means path.boss which it is. The path of the boss. Murrumbidgee is a generic term for a river as recorded in several places and when those rivers flood they = 'big water' in English as a second or 10th language in contact times. Runox images local knowledge isn't relevant but Australian university history faculties says local knowledge is relevant particularly re cultural heritage. Gundagai's etmology is part of Gundagai's cultural heritage. UNESCO also support that approach regarding cultural heritage of the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.147.174.245 (talk) 09:09, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.161.232.242 (talk) 22:51, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Please do something to control this "Johneen Jones" person

Dear Gary Vines and other genuine researchers who contribute to the Gundagai page. Letting this "Johneen Jones" free rein on the Gundagai page is denegrating and corrupting Gundagai history, and destroying the value of the Gundagai page. I thought this lady was banned? She is still posting hogwash dated 15 October, 2015. Get rid of her!! she has physiological and mental issues and should not be given oxygen. Can I just state - THERE WAS NO MASSACRE AT COOLAC!!! This is just a fantasy!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.101.146.26 (talk) 07:46, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

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I Will Say a Prayer for the Person Who Wrote the Above

Someone above has a real problem re the Coolac Massacre it seems. How do they know there was no Coolac Massacre? I have a reference to Major Nunn investigating that massacre but as I have not put that material online I do not need to reference it do I. I did recently reference the 'Long Jimmy' post after finding a rare book that had the Long Jimmy reference in it in an antiquarian bookstore. What is the big rejection of the Coolac Massacre about? Does this person want to paint Gundagai as some innocent little Nirvana where nil bad and sad ever happened? That is not how this area is being depicted by Australian universities or how it was in reality. Gundagai was right on the FRONTIER and on the FRONTIER, massacres happened. There were many massacres in this area. There was one at Gobarralong. UNE note some of them in their history course, in particular the Faithfull Massacre that has direct links to Gundagai. There was also the Rufus River Massacre. Gundagai also had that fierce lot who lived on the south side of the river, invade the fledgling colonial township to grab one of the Aboriginal women and there were deaths so that is killings that happened right in Gundagai. My mum (b.1908),who one branch of her family lived at Coolac, (Mt Pleasant/Burra Creek/Jerusalem) said many poisoned dampers were put out on fence posts. Horatio Wills who lived at Burra Ck in the 1830s, used to kill Aboriginal women especially if they had a baby still at the breast. Senior Archaeologist Wilfred Shawcross noted the preceeding massacres apart from the Horatio Wills antics, but including the raid that resulted in deaths in the new colonial village at Gundagai in 1848, plus the report of the Coolac Massacre (the informant noted as anonymous but that informant's name told to me by an Aboriginal person from Dubbo who now lives at Gundagai, William Leigh, was Gary Churchin from Coolac; are included in the Philip Hughes and Wilfred Shawcrosse publication "Further Cultural Heritage Assessment of the Hume Highway (SH2) Coolac Bypass, NSW." DRAFT. A report to Road and Traffic Authority PO Box 484, Wagga Wagga, NSW. Prepared by Philip Hughes and Wilfred Shawcross, November 2005. Huonbrook Environment and Heritage Pty Ltd ABN 26 062 069 809. GPO Box 178, Canberra ACT 2601. It was all very terrible what happened in Gundagai and around Australia in the early days of European invasion and since, and none of it should have ever happened, but it did and it should not now be be denied as that is what happens with the genocides of people in Europe, and Australia can do better. It was the archaeologists from Navin Officer, first recorded the Coolac Massacre after being told of it by a Coolac local (Gary Churchin), when Navin Officer were doing the initial preliminary Hume Hwy Coolac Bypass archaeological Survey for NSW RTA, now Roads and Maritime. I have the publications for that Hume Highway archaeological survey that note that Coolac Massacre in them signed off by the Navin Officer archaeologists plus in Wilfred Shawcrosses publication re Coolac I registered in those surveys. I also have a couple of CDs with copious material in them sent to me by the RTA but as I can barely see and have to have an eye op and went to the optometrist yesterday to begin that process, I am not delving into those CDs now as I would not be able to read them as I just see mainly blurs. I have given an undertaking to not release documents to do with the Coolac Bypass archaeological surveys so surely the above hissy fitter does not imagine they can bully them off me. They need to go ask the RTA now RMS, or the archaeologists, not be carrying on at me. If the person who put the above post on this talk page can show me how they know there was no Coolac Massacre of Aboriginal people near Gundagai then I will stop mentioning it if the information stacks up - but I am not sure where that leaves the Maj. Nunn information and other references in the early colonial newspaper that are not on Trove, and where that leaves Navin Officer which is a very credible and qualified archaeological business and Wilfred Shawcross, senior and very experienced archaeologist?. Perhaps if the anonymous poster here as above, goes and argues with Navin Officer and/or Wilfred Shawcross/Philip Hughes instead of trying to pick a fight online with me it might be more appropriate? Given I have written most of the Gundagai page and am a long time local and my family have lived here since the 1840s I am not sure what value the above hissy fit has to having any validity about Gundagai history?? The person who wrote the above does not sign their name so they are hiding behind anonymity so I cannot address their lying libel of me and that they choose to be anonymous is in my opinion, very cowardly. Cowards need to be ignored but perhaps a prayer might assist them too. I will ask the local Aboriginal high god to do a bit of a rumble and sidekick to tune the aberrant Coolac Massacre denier, up and that may help plus keep an Aboriginal aspect to it too? Johneen Jones - Gundagai — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.113.30 (talk) 10:15, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Coolac Massacre Remains location

The Coolac Massacre remains were placed in an area on the western side of the Hume Hwy, just south of Coolac, named 'Happy Valley'. I was informed where they were when the Coolac Bypass was happening by a Coolac resident who gleaned her information from talk at the Coolac pub that happened when the Coolac Hume Hwy Bypass was happening and talk about the massacre was being spruiked at that pub. When I was told where the remains had been put I let local and area Aboriginal people who were registered in the archaeological survey of the area with me, know. I also let the RTA now RMS (the NSW road authority), know and the archaeologists doing the survey. One well known senior Aboriginal Elder, not from Gundagai, went to the burial area with his son. My informant told me that that 'Happy Valley' area still has a lot of native ferns and other native vegetation there so it has been left largely undisturbed. I know the area between 'Mingay' and Coolac to be part of the old Coorangarangula land holding as noted in the Crown Land Records for the Gundagai area. The Warbys had residency in the masscare era as did a few others and these are the same Warbys who are going to attempt to break their family's own Water speed record soon as Ken Warby set that record 40 or so years ago on Blowering Dam near Tumut, NSW. John Warby, the father of Ben and William Warby who were at Mingay/Coolac in the 1830s, was the Crown wild cattle manager, managing those Cowpastures herds that had escaped into the Wilds of NSW. Those 'Wilds' likely extended far beyond the Burragorang Valley. I was nudged to make the Massacre Remains location public as above after the informant walked past me in Gundagai last Friday. We disclose all this other content and even the massacre is disclosed in the significant and culturally important Gundagai poems and songs in their own allegorical manner but the human remains of Aboriginal children women and men, the victims from that dreadful event, get assigned to anonymity. Aboriginal people and their sacred gravesites whether they were murdered or died of natural causes, are no less important than the gravesites of my own UK origin Protestants. Johneen Treanor Jones - Gundagai — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.190.18.170 (talk) 00:56, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Protection

who put the protection template on for ONE week ? Dave Rave (talk) 06:34, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

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Bushranger 'Blue Cap'

The hold-up of Joseph Andrews' Gundagai store (The Murrumbidgee Inn) in 1843 by a gang of bushrangers led by the bandit chief 'Blue Cap' is a furphy invented by local 'historian' Henry N. Turnbull. His tale was first published in the Gundagai Independent in 1908, and subsequently re-published - with increasing and incredible detail - in 1917 and 1923. Turnbull claims to have heard the story from his mother Mary Anne Andrews, a gallant lass who escaped and ran to a neighbour for help. Turnbull's version places the bushranger siege in Kimo Station, which Andrews had left some years before. Mary Andrews in this scenario also loaded the firearms for the defenders, and bandaged the wounded.

Turnbull and/or his mother confabulated several incidents into a rousing but fictional event. For the true story of the hold-up see this article http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article37121390 which includes the heroic Andrews daughter, and this article http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article36850743 about the true 'Blue Cap' gang, who were in fact Goulburn-based police troopers in (absurd) disguise.

'Blue Cap' himself did not range the colony's roads until 1867. Robert Cotterell http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article36850743 operated out Young way. He never set foot in Gundagai.

Bluedawe 22:24, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Adelong Crossing Place

The original 'Adelong Crossing Place' was a road at the boundary of Henry Stuckey's run Tumbalong which included the area around the junction of Adelong Creek and Big Ben Creek with the Murrumbidgee River, at the north-western corner of the present township of Gundagai South. Henry Stuckey usually gave 'Adelong Crossing Place' as his address.

In later years, the Great South Road, (Hume Highway), followed a route east of this spot, and crossed Adelong Creek at a junction further south, whose right-hand fork was the continuation of the highway, and whose left-hand fork led to the town of Adelong via the village of Tumblong. This junction then became the Adelong Crossing Place. Bluedawe 22:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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