Talk:Guinguette

Meaning of cabaret

There is a basic misunderstanding in this article, inevitable when using a 1750 French dictionary. "Cabaret" in this sense has no connection with the modern English usage (i.e. an entertainement show, often with drink/food available) and has< i would imagine, been taken directly from the French originals without translation. The guingettes were always drinking places - albeit that many also provided entertainment - and their location is due entirely to the fact that alcohol was chearper outside the customs walls of Paris, and other cities. I have altered the article to reflect this, with a recent source. It would be good if the definitions from the French dictionaries could be re-translated from their originals to avoid using the word 'cabaret'. (Incidentally, the link to "Histoire et patrimoine des guinguettes et des bords de Marne" is dead and I have marked it as such.) Emeraude (talk) 14:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

@Emeraude: Yes, that's right, and I've altered it further, supplying tavern as the translation for 1750 Fr.cabaret. This has the advantage that tavern was a good translation for Fr. cabaret in 1750, and tavern still is a good translation for it, because tavern hasn't changed meaning, and still means essentially the same kind of establishment in 2023 (plus wifi ), while the English term cabaret, which used to align with Fr. cabaret in 1750, no longer is a match, having shifted in 1912 to the current meaning have more to do with performance. That, and the fact that tavern in English also comes from French makes it an ideal choice here, imho. Mathglot (talk) 07:57, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Peacock terms :-(

Why peacock terms ? I am only a simple (french) guy working in a bank. I don't have anything to sell nore any shop, business or company to promote. I only try to explain on english wikipedia some french topics, intersting I think. If you like only too frenchy-french topics such as french cancan, you don't know what you loose...--Tangopaso (talk) 18:36, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Complex Usage

"La guinguette à deux sous" by Georges Simenon (1931, copyright renewed 1976), detective fiction featuring commissaire Maigret and murder at a guinguette (by the way: recommended reading), was my first contact with the word.
According to the "dictionnaire Hachette de la langue française", like "ginguet" (thus and not "guinguet" as in the article, a cheap and sour white wine) it stems from ancient French "giguer" or "ginguer" which may well have denoted something between jumping and dancing to tunes from a "giga" (violin). "Giga" is ancient German, from Germanic "geigan", denoting "moving to and fro" ("Wahrig: Deutsches Wörterbuch").
I would like someone to drop some words on the etymology and expand the explanation of contemporary (seemingly not simple) usage. As I am neither a native speaker of French nor English myself, I don't feel quite up to the task.--Greenforester (talk) 17:46, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi,

I am a native French speaker, but not English you may check it, I apologize. I live near Paris and I like go dancing in the few guinguettes remaining in the region.

The origine of the word is not clear. There are 2 hypothesis : from guinguet a white sour wine, from gigue a type of old dance or gigoter a slang word for "moving to and fro" (congratulations for your analysis). I think that the first (the wine, not the dance) is the good one :

• Gigue is an ancient, or very ancient dance. With foreign origin (English of Irish ?) : see fr:Gigue (danse). Not linked with Paris.
• Since very long time, there were wineyards in Paris or near Pairs. With white wine, a little bit acid. There are yet some in Montmartre or Suresnes. There were also hard taxes for drinking wine in Paris. French government, kings or republic, do like taxes. Even the govt to day. So people left Paris, especially by train to villages on Marne river to drink, dance and swim in the river. And they practice musette dancing. This hypothesis seems better to me.
  

But now, taxes are the same in the whole country, and swimming in Marne river is forbidden for security purposes. There are also TV, computers and smartphones. There are less and less guinguettes. --Tangopaso (talk) 22:32, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Note to self and others

[1] is attributed but not cited in the article text, and I am too pushed for time to look up how to cite wikisource. Backing away from the shiny object, but pinging myself as a reminder, along with @Scope Creep and Mathglot:, who might enjoy this suggested article improvement. Elinruby (talk) 21:15, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@Scope creep: with corrected capitalization Elinruby (talk) 21:17, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Removed the second paragraph of the lead, which was like a half-hearted, in-text citation blown up to paragraph size and dumped into the article, and replaced it with a proper dictionary citation. The dictionary is available in full-text at Archive.org, Open Library, and Gallica; I prefer Gallica, but I cited archive.org in the url field, because controls are in English, and more people here are probably familiar with it. (I wish CS1 allowed multiple url fields, but I recorded the other two in the citation anyway in hidden text, in case you prefer one of those.) Mathglot (talk) 05:45, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Pages haven't been uploaded yet, making it pretty useless as a source. scope_creep^Talk 06:18, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

I noticed. Even if it were filled out, though, you couldn't use sister projects such as Wikisource, Wikiquote, Wiktionary, etc. to source anything at Wikipedia, because Wikisource, just like Wikipedia, is a SPS, and therefore ipso facto an unreliable source. You can link to it, though, and it's very handy to have links to Wikisource so you can go find the full text of primary documents. Mathglot (talk) 08:00, 23 March 2023 (UTC)