Talk:Greenwood, New York, insurrection of 1882

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Greenwood, New York, insurrection of 1882/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Renata3 (talk · contribs) 01:00, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Three major concerns before even taking a closer look at the details:

1. The article relies entirely and exclusively on press articles of the day, which are too close to primary sources and which bring up concerns with WP:OR. Are there really no sources about the event in the past 100 years? Many events get considerable revaluation after a few decades with the benefit of hindsight. Certain expertise is required to evaluate and summarize sources that are 140-years old. Plus, if there are really no sources that talk about the event since 1890s, is the event really notable?
   1. I've given you evidence on my training and ability to "evaluate and summarize articles 140 yeads old" (no hyphen after 140). I'm as experienced as anyone.
   2. When the Governor of New York was involved, it is one of two insurrections in the history of the state, and it was mentioned on the front page of the New Uork Times, that for me says that it's noteworthy enough to merit an article. deisenbe (talk) 15:39, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
2. The article overuses quotes. Out of 1470ish words of readable prose, less than 500 are not quotes. Wikipedia editors should summarize source material in their own words. Quotes are ok when the exact words in the source are relevant to the article, not just the facts or ideas given by the source. Quotation should not, however, be treated as an alternative to extracting facts and presenting them in plain language (from Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing). Please consider rephrasing and summarizing the quotes. The quotes left should be clearly attributed to their source/author.
3. The two problems above lead to an article very light on details and specifics that reads like a very fragmented and disjointed collection of facts rather than a coherent story. There is nothing happening between 1874 and 1878 or between 1878 and 1882. The attempted sales in 1878 seem almost random and out of nowhere. How does this event fit into the bigger picture? Surely, it was not the only town suffering. How did Hornellsville and West Union deal with the loans? Were there indeed injured? How many? What injuries? [looks like the local newspaper cited generally sided with the people -- what do the government reports have to say?] What does it mean to proclaim an insurrection? Was militia used? What's the significance of the event? Was the proclamation justified? Etc.

References needed:

1. Greenwood (population 1,400) - both year & ref needed
2. The only other such proclamation in the history of the state was on occasion of the New York City Draft riots of 1863.
3. The Rochester, Hornellsville, and Pine Creek Railroad Company was incorporated on March 30, 1872, in New York, to build from Olean east to Hornellsville, then south to the state line to connect with the Jersey Shore, Pine Creek and State Line Railroad. -> checked ref #2 and did not see this info there.
4. The Rochester, Hornellsville, and Pine Creek Railroad Company was incorporated on March 30, 1872, in New York, to build from Olean east to Hornellsville, then south to the state line to connect with the Jersey Shore, Pine Creek and State Line Railroad.
5. "nothing to show for its bonds except a few miles of inexpensive grading." - source of quote must always be provided
6. What happened to the money has not been clarified, but only a small part was spent on building of the railroad. -> also smells of WP:OR
7. The proclamation gave the sheriff the authority to call out the militia.
8. In 1896 Greenwood got rail service from the New York & Pennsylvania Railroad, which used some of the Rochester, Hornellsville, and Pine Creek grading. Passengers and freight service was available until 1916, no service due to flood damage 1916–1920, freight only 1920–1935.

Other stuff:

1. Lead is too short
2. Article is overall underlinked (i.e. {{underlinked}})
3. which made the front page of the New York Times - is that lead-worthy?
4. {{inflation}} should be property formatted (i.e. use "|fmt=eq" parameter instead of a vague "current dollars")
5. as the legislature soon passed a law legalizing the acts - what legislature? when?
6. Feb 14 sale is presented in both places - the insurrection and the aftermath - with entirely different outcome
7. Don't think the full quote of governor's proclamation is needed. Can be easily summarized. Feel it was added to pad the length.

Renata (talk) 01:00, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Comma

The comma is required. deisenbe (talk) 18:45, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Why is the comma required?–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:50, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Moved from the bottom of the page to this section: @CaroleHenson: Please put the 2nd comma back in title, per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Commas deisenbe (talk) 01:01, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Deisenbe, I am not seeing anything in MOS:COMMA that makes me think the comma is needed. 1) We are talking about a title, not a sentence and 2) There is not a phrase that would require a comma. I think you are misreading the sentence about geographical locations - where commas are properly used for phrases. Not applicable here.

I am more than happy to post this on WP:TEAHOUSE. I will be back with a link shortly.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:26, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Here you go --Here is the link to teahouse.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:43, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

MOS:GEOCOMMA

In geographical references that include multiple levels of subordinate divisions (e.g., city, state/province, country), a comma separates each element and follows the last element unless followed by other punctuation.

• Correct: He set October 1, 2011, as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma, to meet his demands.
• Incorrect: He set October 1, 2011, as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma to meet his demands.

deisenbe (talk) 03:37, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

I totally agree with your correct example, because it is providing punctuation for a phrase. As a check, it could be read "He set October 1, 2011 to meet his demand." So a comma is needed before and after the phrase. Yep.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:56, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

I am striking out the part that the Teahouse said was wrong.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:57, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Okay, AlanM1 at the Teahouse says the comma after New York is needed. I will blank out the current redirect page and see if I can move it. If not, I will have to submit a move request.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:04, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

I am so sorry about that. Thanks for bearing with me. I wasn't able to move the page, so I submitted a request at Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:13, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Route 417

Why is a source needed? Just look at a map. deisenbe (talk) 18:46, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about. There's no Route 417 mentioned in this article. I think you meant this for the Greenwood, New York article. The cn tag applies to the entire paragraph there. Well.... really pretty much the entire article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:52, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry

A couple of questions...

I am glad you are here... I thought you had given up on the article.

• There is conflicting information about what happened on February 14, 1882. Can you help me understand what happened?
• Did the Pennsylvania helpers just assist in 1882 or throughout?
• I added to the intro - do you have anything to add or correct?

–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:32, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Copy GA comments to address the issues from the review

• • • Copied from the GA Review that was conducted by Renata3***

Three major concerns before even taking a closer look at the details:

1. The article relies entirely and exclusively on press articles of the day, which are too close to primary sources and which bring up concerns with WP:OR. Are there really no sources about the event in the past 100 years? Many events get considerable revaluation after a few decades with the benefit of hindsight. Certain expertise is required to evaluate and summarize sources that are 140-years old. Plus, if there are really no sources that talk about the event since 1890s, is the event really notable? I thought the same thing, if it didn't make it into books or other sources about the town's history, how notable is it? But, that is what I am finding. I found some information about the railroad--but even that info didn't mention the insurrection. I am guessing for this reason alone, it won't pass GA.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:40, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
   1. I have provided you evidence of my training and ability to "evaluate and summarize articles 140 yeads old" (no hyphen after 140). I'm as experienced as anyone.
   2. When the Governor of New York was involved, it is one of two insurrections in the history of the state, and it was mentioned on the front page of the New Uork Times, that for me says that it's noteworthy enough to merit an article. deisenbe (talk) 15:39, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
2. The article overuses quotes. Out of 1470ish words of readable prose, less than 500 are not quotes. Wikipedia editors should summarize source material in their own words. Quotes are ok when the exact words in the source are relevant to the article, not just the facts or ideas given by the source. Quotation should not, however, be treated as an alternative to extracting facts and presenting them in plain language (from Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing). Please consider rephrasing and summarizing the quotes. The quotes left should be clearly attributed to their source/author.  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:40, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
3. The two problems above lead to an article very light on details and specifics that reads like a very fragmented and disjointed collection of facts rather than a coherent story. There is nothing happening between 1874 and 1878 or between 1878 and 1882. The attempted sales in 1878 seem almost random and out of nowhere. How does this event fit into the bigger picture? Surely, it was not the only town suffering. How did Hornellsville and West Union deal with the loans? Were there indeed injured? How many? What injuries? [looks like the local newspaper cited generally sided with the people -- what do the government reports have to say?] What does it mean to proclaim an insurrection? Was militia used? What's the significance of the event? Was the proclamation justified? Etc. Great questions about the other towns, etc. I added a bit to the intro. This is a good paragraph to review for expanding the article and the lead.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:40, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

References needed:

1. Greenwood (population 1,400) - both year & ref needed Removed "(population 1,400)"–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:56, 11 March 2020 (UTC) Found a source, added the year.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:23, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
2. The only other such proclamation in the history of the state was on occasion of the New York City Draft riots of 1863. unable to find source about Greenwood/Race riots, so removed that sentence -- added a See also link to List of incidents of civil unrest in the United States–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:03, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
3. The Rochester, Hornellsville, and Pine Creek Railroad Company was incorporated on March 30, 1872, in New York, to build from Olean east to Hornellsville, then south to the state line to connect with the Jersey Shore, Pine Creek and State Line Railroad. -> checked ref #2 and did not see this info there. Done I found a source and updated the content and the year based upon the source.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:40, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
4. The Rochester, Hornellsville, and Pine Creek Railroad Company was incorporated on March 30, 1872, in New York, to build from Olean east to Hornellsville, then south to the state line to connect with the Jersey Shore, Pine Creek and State Line Railroad. Dupe?–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:40, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
5. "nothing to show for its bonds except a few miles of inexpensive grading." - source of quote must always be provided Added a citation to the correct source–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:23, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
6. What happened to the money has not been clarified, but only a small part was spent on building of the railroad. -> also smells of WP:OR Agree, removed that part.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:23, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
7. The proclamation gave the sheriff the authority to call out the militia. Removed this sentence–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:23, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
8. In 1896 Greenwood got rail service from the New York & Pennsylvania Railroad, which used some of the Rochester, Hornellsville, and Pine Creek grading. Passengers and freight service was available until 1916, no service due to flood damage 1916–1920, freight only 1920–1935. I got a source for the first sentence. And, removed the second sentence, I couldn't find a source.––CaroleHenson (talk) 21:39, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Other stuff:

1. Lead is too short I added a bit to it. It could probably use more info.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:56, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
2. Article is overall underlinked (i.e. {{underlinked}})  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:56, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
3. which made the front page of the New York Times - is that lead-worthy? That was my initial take, but I left it. I don't add that kind of information to articles, but front page of NYT is somewhat notable.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:56, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
4. {{inflation}} should be property formatted (i.e. use "|fmt=eq" parameter instead of a vague "current dollars") Someone fixed that already.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:56, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
5. as the legislature soon passed a law legalizing the acts - what legislature? when? When is May 1874 - added that an the source. What legislature, it's only a guess, but probably the state legislature. Left that alone as that is WP:OR / a guess.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:23, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
6. Feb 14 sale is presented in both places - the insurrection and the aftermath - with entirely different outcome I need help with this one. I have the same question.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:23, 11 March 2020 (UTC)  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:39, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
7. Don't think the full quote of governor's proclamation is needed. Can be easily summarized. Feel it was added to pad the length.  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:56, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Copied from Renata3's review.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:31, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

I tackled what I could. I still have an open question about the discrepancies with the February 14 info. I am guessing that this will not pass GA due to notability / no current books or other secondary sources with this event. But, in the meantime, the work by Renata3 has been utilized. Thanks so much, Renata!!!–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:23, 11 March 2020 (UTC)