Talk:Green Party of the United States/Archive 1

Archive 1

Social Democracy?

Seems like this reference to political ideology is misleading. Social Democrats distinguish themselves from Greens, see Social Democracy, in particular this: Many social democratic parties have shifted emphasis from their traditional goals of social justice to human rights and environmental issues. In this, they are facing increasing challenge from Greens, who view ecology as fundamental to peace, and require reform of money supply and safe trade measures to ensure ecological integrity. In Germany in particular, Greens, Social Democrats, and other left-wing parties have cooperated in so-called Red-Green Alliances. Greens also distinguish themselves from socialists. See [1], in particular: There is a worldwide movement advocating socialism and then there is a worldwide movement for Green politics. In fact, the latter arose in the wake of the sixties as an ALTERNATIVE to the former, and The Greens' eco-communitarian vision of living more lightly and more locally is quite distinct from the traditional socialist vision of industrial-scale planning. And within the context of a future Green world of diverse bioregional communities, while an economy based on collectivized property relations would certainly be a viable option, there is no need to elevate it to a universal principle as socialists do. As Green ideology may be tolerant of, but is nevertheless distinct from, Social Democratic ideology, and the US Green Party doesn't seem to be any more socialist than other Green Parties, I would suggest removing this reference. --65.28.237.180 03:32, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• Done --Jeepien 05:05:30, 2005-08-18 (UTC)

G/GPUSA

Ben Manski (a rather high-profile former co-chair of the GPUS), has just made some good additions to the article. However, I am somewhat concerned about this change (about the G/GPUSA):

Though for a time they represented themselves otherwise, today they describe themselves as "a national non-profit membership organization," not as a political party.

I can find no indication of any such thing on their website, which continues to call the G/GPUSA "American's oldest and original Green Party."

Can anyone provide a source? If not, I'll probably revert this change.

RadicalSubversiv E 00:42, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

ASGP page

I feel that there should be a separate page for the Association of State Green Parties (ASGP), even though the current Green Party of the United States is more or less a direct historical and organizational successor to that organization (only in a separate page can the level of detail necessary to fully document that organization's history and role within the larger Green Party movement be appropriately included). Note: I've created redirects that point Greens/Green Party USA (G/GPUSA) to the Green Party USA page, and a redirection for Association of State Green Parties (ASGP) that points to the Green Party (United States) (same as ASGP or Association of State Green Parties), as I used those links in the various articles I recently created. User:Tvleavitt.

Under the current scheme of things, shouldn't Association of State Green Parties (ASGP) redirect to Green Party of the United States? - Nat Krause 01:50, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Logo

Nice logo! I'm glad they changed it. --Revolución (talk) 17:17, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

2004 strategy, continued

It seems to me that it this article presents only one side of the Cobb/Nader-Camejo debate, and as such is deeply misleading. It presents Cobb as promising "to run a campaign focused on building the Green Party" without presenting anything about what the other side said their campaign was about (my suggestion would be, full independence from the Democrats). I understand from the edit summaries and comments on this Talk page that Ben Manski doesn't think safe states was really the big issue in the campaign. That's fine, but plenty of Greens did -- that's why it was so commented-upon in the time. I think it is a very flawed encyclopedia article on this issue that does not acknowledge that many Greens did not support Cobb's campaign because they saw it as a capitulation to "Anybody But Bush." Whether or not you agree with them, that perception among a segment of Greens is undeniably an important part of Green history. Catsv 18:07, 14 January 2006 (UTC)catsv

?

Has any member of the green party ever won a seat in congress?

...not yet. Deirdre 20:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Nader's 1996 running mates

Evidently in some states Nader's running mate on the ballot was not Winona LaDuke. Does anyone have more details about why that was, and who was on the ballot in which states? Шизомби 03:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge

I still think that Green Party (United States) should merge with Green Party of the United States, and I'd like to start making moves in that direction. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 00:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I effected the merge today, although I didn't find anything at Green Party of the United States that wasn't already included in this article, other than a "See also" item. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 01:48, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge?

If these articles are to remain separate, there needs to be more differentiation between them, much as there is between the Democratic Party (United States) and Democratic National Committee articles. It seems silly to have articles styled as "Green Party of the United States" and "Green Party (United States)" to me; it really must to total outsiders. Rlquall 01:20, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

You'll have to run that by RadicalSubversiv, participant in this Talk's earlier discussion, I think. Be prepared to hear that your proposals "belie a clear lack of understanding both of how political parties are organized, and how articles about them are organized on Wikipedia"; if you're known to drink while editing, be prepared to discuss that as well (see above). Or at least that's the response he gave me, before dismissing my proposal for such changes. At least the "United States Green Parties" (plural) page doesn't exist separately anymore; there used to be three tiers to Wikipedia's American Greens tangle, as opposed to two. I'd love to discuss a change again, if skipping the unecessary rudeness with Subversiv is possible. Shem 09:09, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Also, if we're going to admonish against unilateral changes, let's not play the "lecture against unilateral changes, then make several of them ourselves" game. Shem 09:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Still, one must take into account the fact that Green Party history in the U.S. is pretty complicated and has had a lot of groups in it. Why don't we merge Green Party of the United States into Green Party (United States), while continuing to make it clear that the latter is not limited to the former? - Nat Krause 09:32, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree, and would in no way wish to omit such context. When I last merged the two, that is precisely what was done. No content was removed outright, save content from Subversiv's old "United States Green Parties" page to the (now-defunct) Greens/GPUSA's article. To be 100% clear, since this debate has been misrepresented before, I hold that only two "American Greens" articles need exist: Green Party of the United States merged with Green Party (United States), and Greens/Green Party USA. Shem 09:42, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The distinction between Green Party (United States) and Green Party of the United States is almost exactly equivalent to that of Democratic Party (United States) and Democratic National Committee -- yes, the name is confusing, but you'll have to take that up with the GPUS. I don't see any reason why the two articles need to be merged, but if they are the result should be located at Green Party (United States) -- what Shem attempted to do a while back was to locate the article at Green Party of the United States and erase any distinction between a specific organizational entity (the national committee) and the broader party. Also, it would be helpful if we could have this discussion without personal attacks, please (especially the completely bogus one about your drinking, a subject which you brought up and I have no interest in). RadicalSubversiv E 17:13, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Subversiv, there's no kind way to say this: you are (again) misrepresenting what took place, though for what reason I have no idea. I did not attempt to "erase any distinction," at all, and if you'd stop talking past me (with an air of undeserved rudeness I also cannot understand), you would see that and move along with business. As for the "bogus" bringing up of my drinking, the earlier discussion on this page (see "Migration from USGP article" above) is in plain view. For you to discourage personal attacks after having engaged in such deliberate rudeness, and to discourage unilateral editing while doing just that in these two (three, four was it?) articles, is very confusing. Shem 19:52, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I apparently did make some mention of your drinking after you brought it up repeatedly -- I apologize. (You might find that people will stop mentioning it if you stop bringing it up incessantly.) Aside from that, I stand by all of my comments. But really, this is pointless -- the germane question is whether to merge the two articles, a subject on which I'll wait to hear some response from Rlquall and Nat Krause (both experienced and respected editors to whom I'll defer if they both see a need for a merge). RadicalSubversiv E 20:21, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is mentioned in one place: My User page, in humour. Beyond Wikipedia User space, I have not mentioned it in any way, shape, or form; given it being a joke, the background to my discovering Wikipedia, it's hardly relevant while I'm editing articles. I do not "bring it up incessantly" -- you are the only user on Wikipedia, ever, who has missed the humour or moved to bring it up as a point in Wikipedia's article space. Though if the apology is sincere, it is accepted, and I hope that future encounters with you can be free of the antagonism present here. Shem 21:09, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It would be best to merge here. Currently there are a lot of pages out there pointing to Green Party of the United States that obviously mean to be pointing to Green Party (United States). I think that adequate distinction can be made as to the subtleties using a footnote or section on this page. If, however, RadicalSubversiv or others believe that a separate page is necessary for the Steering Committee or whatever, there can be specific pages linking from here for that... It's just important to remember that the average user wants the most general information first, and might stop there. The average user definitely does NOT want the current Green Party of the United States page before they have seen this page. Unfortunately that is what is happening now. Anyone who wants the Green Party of the United States information should be able to find it, either on here or linked from here, but first that page should redirect here because Green Party (United States) is all that the first-time visitor wants. 65.28.237.180 20:06, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I guess it's important to consider which articles link to Green Party of the United States, and do they actually intend to link specifically to the national committee, or to the party in general? We should look through these pages and gauge their intent. If most or all just reference the party in general, I say we just move Green Party of the United States to Green Party of the United States, Steering Committee or something like that, and leave a redirect to Green Party (United States) in its place. 65.28.237.180 07:47, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

There's about 53 links to Green Party of the United States -- we can easily go through those and correct any which seem to be referring to the party generally, rather than the GPUS organization specifically. I'm also adding a disambiguation notice to clarify any possible misunderstanding for readers. The correct title for an article about an organization is the name of the organization -- that the Greens have taken the somewhat confusing step of using a generic-sounding organization name for their national committee doesn't change that. RadicalSubversiv E 04:42, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

That is no longer true. Within the past two months, the GPUS has voted to change the name of what used to be called its Coördinating Committee to the less confusing National Committee, or, externally, Green National Committee, so the nomenclature is now identical among the DNC, RNC, and GNC. I happen to sit on the GNC.

While the GNC is the highest decision-making body within the GPUS, it is not considered to be synonymous with the term GPUS. The party also has a Steering Committee comprising seven (currently six) Co-chairs, a Secretary, and a Treasurer, which is delegated with day-to-day operations, and a variety of standing and select committees, working groups, and identity caucuses, which are also under the GPUS umbrella.

I do not see a distinction between articles that refer to "the party generally" and those that refer to the organization specifically, since the organization is the party. --Jeepien 18:27:32, 2005-08-09 (UTC)

You're still somewhat misrepresenting the relationship. As the FEC will tell you, the "Green Party of the United States", a legal corporation (with a bank account, officers, etc.), is the national committee of the Green Party in the United States, the same way that the DNC is for the Democrats, and the RNC is for the Republicans.

I hadn't heard that the GPUS had renamed its coordinating committee to be the "Green National Committee" -- that should be reported in the GPUS article, BTW -- but that doesn't change the name of the organization itself, which is still a "national committee" in the generic/legal/FEC sense of the term. If anything, the internal name change makes it even more important to maintain the separation for the clarity of readers. It is not synonymous with the Green Party writ large, which existed before the GPUS or its predecessor organization was even founded. (At one point, there was even an ongoing divide among Greens as to what national organization constituted their official national committee. I suppose whoever's still running the G/GPUSA these days would claim that there still is.)

RadicalSubversiv E 02:30, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, what about having Green Party of the United States (national committee), linked to from this page, and then do Jeepien's redirect? That way you keep the distinction you want, and users aren't sent to a page they don't want. I understand the national committee distinction, but honestly, that distinction matters only to the FEC and the GPUS national committee, and they don't come to Wikipedia to have it explained to them. You say that this isn't our problem, because it's the GPUS that chose a confusing name, but really, they didn't. That national committee distinction is just for the FEC; it isn't something that the GPUS put up as a major facet of their public image, and it makes little sense to make such a big deal of it here. The distinction is useful for the FEC, not Wikipedia users. Is there anything wrong with Green Party of the United States (national committee)?

--65.28.237.180 08:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Look, I've already added a disambiguation notice to the GPUS article, pointing here, and I've just finished going through and fixing links which pointed there while referring to the party generically. That should make the distinction very clear for readers. It's a distinction which matters a great deal, not just because of the FEC, but because of how American political parties are structured and the long and sordid history of Green Party organizational disputes. RadicalSubversiv E 02:36, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Why not merge them? What's the problem? No one is suggesting that we should not make the distinction between "Green Party of the United States" and the Green Party in the U.S.A. in general. - Nat Krause 01:31, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

This is a good point. There is currently so little information at Green Party of the United States that the distinction does not have to be made by having two separate pages. I maintain, however, that if the party's page ever became too burdened with national committee information that a separate page was necessary, that page should be "something something (national committee)" and Green Party of the United States should remain a redirect. Perhaps, then, in anticipation of such time, and to avoid having this same confusion arising in the future, we should simply create the "something something (national committee)" page now.

What I'm really angling for is a redirect from Green Party of the United States to Green Party (United States), for usability's sake. I then ask, is that better accomplished by a full merge, or by moving the current "national committee" page to a page explicitly named "something something (national committee)"? --65.28.237.180 19:49, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Did one editor above just state that GPOTUS has renamed itself to "Green National Committee," and shouldn't that change take effect if true? Shem^(talk) 02:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

It appears to me that he is saying that the leadership of the GPOTUS changed its name (the name of the leadership) to Green National Committee. This certainly implies that GPOTUS doesn't see itself as a national committee. - Nat Krause 04:11, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

It would seem to imply that, but it doesn't -- the GPUS spent a lot of time and money proving to the FEC that they constitute the national committee of the Green Party, and their website currently reads "As the Green Party National Committee, we will devote our attention to establishing a national Green presence in politics and policy debate while continuing to facilitate party growth and action at the state and local level" ([2], emphasis added). They've simply made matters more confusing by deciding to call the leadership body of the GPUS the "Green National Committee."

As for the question of merging the articles, with all due respect to Nat, I don't think "why not?" is the appropriate question, and over the course of my involvement with this article, numerous people have specifically attempted to erase the distinction. The articles are on two distinct but related subjects, disambiguated properly so as to cause a minimum of confusion for readers. Could the subject of the GPUS as an organization be dealt with in this article? Probably, but so could Democratic National Committee in Democratic Party (United States), and I don't see anyone clamoring to do that. What I do see is a a number of Greens with involvement in the U.S. deliberately trying to blur the distinction, and proposing completely novel schemes for article naming. Neither is acceptable in my view.

Incidentally, I believe there used to be more content at Green Party of the United States, until someone (I think Shem) page-moved over it -- an admin might still be able to retrieve the old content.

RadicalSubversiv E 13:28, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

You really do have an awful memory, Subversiv. Shem^(talk) 06:26, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

"They've simply made matters more confusing by deciding to call the leadership body of the GPUS the "Green National Committee." Well, what is your hypothesis as to why they did that? It seems quite likely to me that the GPUS does not see itself as a national committee, but, for practical reasons, they want to legally qualify as a national committee under federal law. Otherwise, they could have called it "Green National Committee" instead of Green Party of the United States, and called the current Green National Committee something else less confusing.

Anyway, I think "Why not?" is a very reasonable question when we are discussing two pages with such closely related content that also happen to suffer from confusingly similar titles. If there is a problem with people attempting to confuse the distinction between GPUS and not-GPUS, then there's no reason we can't deal with that problem on this page. In fact, it might be easier to watch if what we're watching is on one page instead of two. (I am, for the record, not any kind of Green, much less a member of GPUS). - Nat Krause 01:26, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

If there was old content lost it would be great to get it back by admin if possible. I haven't seen Greens deliberately blurring the distinction, but maybe you've seen something I haven't. The distinction is important and nobody in this discussion is suggesting that it should be discarded or muddled (in fact, as I suggested above, a "(national committee)" page would be a great place to protect that distinction, as it is appropriately out of the way of anticipated edit wars). But I don't think that having these two similarly titled articles (wherein one article covers a subset of the other), no matter whether disambiguated, constitutes "a minimum of confusion for readers"; I think that including "national committee" in the page title would cause less confusion than your purported minimum. Pulling out the Democratic National Committee may be instructive, but in light of the confusing names here, whether that be the fault of the GPOTUS itself, it looks to me like "a clear consensus (that is, significant discussion involving people other than Shem and [your]self) [is] emerg[ing] that Green Party material should not follow the larger pattern". --65.28.237.180 21:11, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

There is still confusion, by the way, not only amongst readers but editors as well: which article to link to? See [3] then [4]. Leaving Green Party of the United States with its current title, even with disambiguation at the top of the page, is going to result in more of these mistakes, which means more and more cleanup afterwards. --65.28.237.180 21:53, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

As a Green Party member, a member of our local county's "County Council" (equivalent to a Democratic Party Central Committee), an officer of the party at a national level (delegate to Accreditation Committee from the National Lavender Greens Caucus), in my opinion, when a party organizer/activist thinks of the "Green Party of the United States", they think of the party itself as a whole, definitely not the National Committee, which your average activist/party organizer refers to as the NC (formerly the CC, co-ordinating committee). 99% of Greens on the street have no idea the NC even exists. If you want a page that refers specifically to that particular body (only one of many varying bodies at a national level), then you should have a page that says that: "National Committee of the Green Party of the United States"... with a redirect from"Co-ordinating Committee of the Green Party of the United States". No one in the party thinks of it as "Green Party (United States)". In fact, if you type "Green Party of the United States" into Google, you get www.gp.org, which has the title "Green Party of the United States" and the text "The official policy platform and position documents of the Green Party of the United States." The platform is NOT the product of the National Committee's deliberations. As someone said above, the only people who refer to the "Green Party of the United States" as the "National Committee" are the FEC's lawyers. User:Tvleavitt 01:27, 23 August 2005 (PDT)

Although I agree with your conclusion to merge, I'm afraid you might be misunderstanding what's at issue here. RadicalSubversiv is making a factual claim, which I've never heard anyone dispute, that, legally, the "Green Party of the United States" is itself a national committee. Assuming this is true, then, the so-called "Green National Committee" would more accurately be called a Central Committee or an Executive Committee or something. The GPUS is clearly not the same thing as what we mean by "Green Party (United States)" because "Green Party (United States)" includes the G/GPUSA as well as all the state parties, some of which were quite active before GPUS ever existed. So, we don't mean to say that GPUS's platform is produced by the Green National Committee, but that, since GPUS is a national committee, its platform is by definition the product of a national committee.

However, I completely agree with you that the fact that GPUS is a national committee is an almost totally irrelevant legal technicality, so we shouldn't base article structure around it. - Nat Krause 11:43, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

So the GPotUS is a national committee; I'm not sure anyone wants to dispute this. Regardless, people (including Wikipedia editors) are going to (and linking to) Green Party of the United States when they intend to arrive at Green Party (United States). There may or may not be a merge in the future, and there may or may not be an ASGP page split. For right now, I would like to get the current GPotUS page out of the way, so that a redirect can be left behind, leaving whatever confusion may remain as an academic matter for interested editors, rather than a usability issue for everyone. Thus, I am requesting a move, from Green Party of the United States to Green Party of the United States (national committee). Anyone who would like to vote please go to Talk:Green Party of the United States. --65.28.237.180 02:27, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to say that we should use Green National Committee when we're talking about the GNC and not pretend like the GNC and the whole of the GPUS are the same organization. We've already merged Green Party (United States) with Green Party of the United States, but let's keep the distinction between the whole national organization and the leadership committee, just as we do with Democratic Party (United States) and Democratic National Committee or Republican Party (United States) and Republican National Committee. --Leep4life 20:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it should be merged unless someone adds significantly more to this article in order to differentiate it. I think this article could be a great section in the Green Party article. --Njfellow 18:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Leep4life: the Green Party has three national committees now, one of which is the Green National Committee. I've already added quite a bit of material on the GNC. Please take a look. Also, I don't think that the history of the Green Party in the United States should be whacked out of this article as it has been; the Greens existed here long before the GPotUS. As now written, the history starts in 1996, rather than, say, 1985 when the first Green candidate ran in this country. Deirdre 02:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

History incomplete

The history section concentrates exclusively on the history of the political party named the Green Party of the United States, which began in 1995, rather than on the history of the Green Party in the US, which began in 1985 or a bit earlier. This page used to have this broader history; why was this deleted? If this is one specific party, then it makes sense, but my reading of the title of this page is that it is not. Perhaps there should be another article, History of the Green Party (United States). Deirdre 22:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

• I've gone ahead and started this article. It needs work. It would be good to have more detail on the Green Committees of Correspondence and the founding papers of the Greens in the US. Deirdre 15:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
• My understanding from close friends who were directly involved is that the early Greens were radically different than the party that bears the label today. Given the very short duration of the present configuration, and given the controversial nature of the transformation (some would say takeover), it seems wrong to relegate the earlier history to a separate page. Doing so becomes a de facto POV -- that the current electoralism is the only "legitimate" expression of a "party". This kind of ignorance is exactly what the power brokers of GPUS would like people to believe. Knappster 19:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't call this "relegating"--it's typical to have histories separate from the main current pages so that one doesn't have to deal with a huge long page. The Democratic Party (United States) page is enormous, and I think would benefit from having its history separated. Admittedly, the Green Party in the US has a pretty short history, so perhaps a case could be made for reuniting the pages, but I still think it's more digestible this way. Deirdre 21:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Kristen Olsen

On the Steering Committee section, each name has a link, but it appears that Kristen Olsen's name links to another Kristen Olsen. I'm 99% sure the GPUS SC member is not also a championship figure skater. I don't know how to make the link go to a blank Kristen Olsen page... --Banyan 01:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:David Cobb.jpg

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BetacommandBot 10:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

This page makes no mention of a single Green party policy!

Surely a little odd? Jossy's Giant (talk) 14:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I was getting ready to add that in here. The article desperately needs an outline of the party platform. Now. Auror (talk) 15:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The National Party GP is suppose to pass a 2008 platform at the national convention in Chicago. We could wait until then for updated policies.

AfD discussion

Folks here might be interested in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Cavlan.--Appraiser (talk) 12:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

non-hierarchical participatory democracy?

What in the world does the phrase "non-hierarchical participatory democracy" mean in terms of how the Green Party understands the term? A Google search for that precise phrase turns up just under 600 results, all of which appear to simply state that the Green Party is in favor of it without bothering to define the meaning or explain it. There is no explanation anywhere of what that phrase specifically entails. Either remove the phrase or spell out the meaning for us neophytes who aren't familiar with the Green Party. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.197.2.6 (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It means what it says. Participatory democracy means fully enfranchised democracy where as many people participate as possible. Non-hierarchical means no class-like power structure (grassroots organization).

Replaced "Ideology" section

Viewing the history, I noted that on November 21, User:168.8.163.137 replaced the "Ideology" section with vandalism (their one and only edit). A little over an hour later, User:Coolgamer deleted the vandalism, but for whatever reason elected not to replace the section (an "undo" would have been the appropriate course of action, as there were no interim edits). I have remedied this. --71.241.198.107 (talk) 20:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Too Much 2008 Focus

The section on the 2008 election should be shrunk and moved to the same level as the other election sections: it is unencyclopedic to give so much emphasis to it just because it is the most recent one.Masterofpsi (talk) 18:43, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Ideology section

I was surprised to find no section dedicated to the party ideology, so I copied the "Ten Key Values" from their web site. It should be reworked and expanded in original language, by someone more skilled than myself, but the need for an ideology section in a political party article should be perfectly obvious.

Also, I take issue with calling the GP "center-left" as in the info box. Their latest presidential debate can be seen in its entirety on YouTube (part 1, part 2) And although he wasn't contending, Ralph Nader made some comments, if you're interested. I'd say that, based on the party platform, and the statements of party members and candidates, that the GP qualifies to be called "left-wing" rather than "center-left," both fiscally and socially, at least on the U.S. spectrum, which is the relevant one in this case, and that the info box should reflect this. But I'll leave it to someone else to change it, if they agree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.222.222.133 (talk) 07:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that center-left is not quite accurate, but neither is left-wing, in addition it carries derogatory connotations. Green politics rose out of a critique of the failures of the left and of the limits of analysis based on a left/right dichotomy. I added "socially responsible" and "civil libertarian" to give a little more depth of perspective here.

I reverted the reversion of my changes to ideology in the party infobox. The reasons for the changes are that "progressivism" is a predecessor to green politics and although not contrary to green ideology, it is not at all descriptive of it. "Participatory democracy" is distinct from "grassroots democracy" which is explicitly, and in practice, a core tenet of green politics. In addition to grassroots democracy; nonviolence, ecology, and social justice are each distinct ideologies that are fundamental to green politics. To leave any of these out would be a significant omission. The article on green politics goes into a more extensive list of ideological tendencies and influences. Bcharles (talk) 17:54, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see how "left-wing" carries a derogatory connotation. The Green party IS left-wing. The only derogatory connotations that it gains are in the American electoral discourse, where any label can and has at one point in time been saddled with derogatory connotations, including "right-wing" and "conservative." Barry Goldwater attempted to give the word "moderate" a negative connotation, even calling it a "vice." The word's use in the context of an political campaign should not alter an accurate description of the party. Call the Green Party what it is (left-wing), and let people attach whatever connotation they see fit, per their personal political belief. Don't change the word based in an attempt to make the party seem more mainstream than it is.

Even though I agree the Green Party is on the left, I think it lies between the center-left and left-wing. And "left-wing" is often used by Religious Right groups, anti-abortion groups, and just conservative groups or people in general as a derogatory term (see nomination of moderate Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor). All of our opinions however are original research. Until someone finds some reliable references I say we label them center-left, left-wing. Also I'm not entirely sure about having eco-socialism as an ideology.--Sparrowhawk64 (talk) 05:07, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I was the one who added eco-socialism to the ideology. I added it because the Green Party seems to have significant Socialist tendencies and it seems that most Americans socialists who are registered with a party are Greens; many Greens are socialists..sbrianhicks, plus there are a lot of anarchists in the party. (talk)

Once again, every single thing you just stated was unverified, unsubstantiated, original research and is therefore inadmissible to this page. Sparrowhawk64 (talk) 03:12, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

2010 Elections

Should it be noted that in 2010 there are several Green nominees, and also that the Party is holding a contest to add to it's platform? 68.40.174.101 (talk) 22:44, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality Dispute

I would dispute the use of the term "center-left" for economic policies. The green party supports a 100% income tax on certain income levels. That is not center anything. That is extremely radical. Also, the general tone of the article and lack of depth (The ideology section lists a bunch of ideas that are entirely meaningless without specific ideas for implementations of those ideas) suggest that the party is almost mainstream, (EDIT) which is certainly not the case. Also, please don't remove the tag unless you at least give me some kind of token response. 164.107.182.249 (talk) 01:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

On fiscal issues, they're basically the Communist Party. Can we come to a consensus to alter the partybox to read "left-wing"? -- LightSpectra (talk) 05:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think they are "basically the Communist Party," (meaning state ownership of all means of production), but I do agree that "left-wing" is more accurate. I support such a change. Also, I concur that they are not considered mainstream in the USA, (and neither are the Libertarian Party, Constitution Party, or any other party). --HoboJones (talk) 15:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The Green Party is an ocean away from communist. and i would challenge your comment about the 100% income tax. you have a source for that? and of course the greens are left-wing on an american scale but this is an international encyclopedia. everything has to be placed in a global context. the green party is definitely center-left on both social and fiscal policy —Vikingviolinist (talk) 00:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Vikingviolinist, I agree with you on every point. Cmrdm (talk) 22:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The Green Party isnt socialist, at least mainstream members. The Green Party favors community-based economics, small and local businesses type of capitalism instead of big corporations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.87.241.128 (talk) 05:30, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

They're not communist, but "left wing" is a a much better description than "center-left".User:Hoponpop69 (talk) 18:42, 9 June 2012‎

Demise of the Greens

There is no mention of the effective demise of the Greens due to sectarian infighting and bickering. ---Dagme (talk) 02:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

This is WP:NOTAFORUM. Provide information or do not post partisan attacks.--TM 14:59, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved Consensus appears to be in favor of the move per WP:PRECISION. Alpha_Quadrant ^(talk) 22:08, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

---

Green Party (United States) → Green Party of the United States – Official name[5] 95.244.236.197 (talk) 23:32, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support. More natural form of disambiguation, anyway. Jenks24 (talk) 03:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support. When feasible, natural disambiguation is preferable to the parenthetical type currently in use. —David Levy 14:35, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support. With an accepted, official long name, parenthetical disambiguation is unnecessary. Shrigley (talk) 16:33, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Although a clear violation of WP:COMMONNAME, it seems reasonable as long as the redirect is kept. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:33, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

  Actually, the proposed title is entirely consistent with WP:COMMONNAME, which explains that while we generally prefer to use the subject's most common name as the article's title, we often avoid doing so (and instead use a less common name) because of ambiguity.
  It also is consistent with WP:PRECISION (part of the same policy), which advises us to use parenthetical disambiguation only if natural disambiguation is not feasible. —David Levy 19:52, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Obviously, that's its real name, so that's what the article should be called. Peacock28 (talk) 04:43, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support- Improves the article. Jusdafax 05:48, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Broken Link

The link to therealdifference.org goes to an asian-language landing page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.84.163.38 (talk) 21:07, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Position

I would argue for far-left or left-wing; Frankie DaCallihan seems to be arguing for center or center-left. It appears that the consensus in 2010 was left-wing, per the sections above at #Ideology section and at #Neutrality Dispute. However, thinking it over, we need a reliable source for any appellation. To do otherwise would be synthesis. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:56, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

"I would argue for far-left"...

I wasn't aware the Greens were commies. For the most part they're social liberals and social democrats who focus on environmental politics. Their most left-wing is Democratic socialists but they aren't the majority. Calling them left-wing in the way we define it here is a big stretch, calling them far-left is either an absurd smear attempt or terribly misguided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.184.185.8 (talk) 06:29, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think even the (theoretical) communists are as far-left as the Greens. (With some exceptions, actual Communists are fascists or apolitical oligarcs.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:27, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh how I miss the days when libertarians didn't run wild on the internet and smear people they didn't like via popular internet sites. Children were carefree and happy, and rivers were made of chocolate and rainbows and hope, but now there is nothing. Nothing but despair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.35.151.56 (talk) 08:52, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I've removed it while it is marked as disputed. The ideology (Green politics) is given making it more-or-less redundant. For my own 2¢, green politics doesn't fit easily on the left-right spectrum (as disappointing as that is for some). --Tóraí (talk) 11:36, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

American Left

There is a discussion about whether to include the Green Party as part of the American Left, an article about socialism, communism, anarchism and syndicalism in the U.S. Contributions would be appreciated. (See: Talk:American Left#Green Party.) TFD (talk) 04:08, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Transition of Green Committees of Correspondence to Greens/Green Party USA

@Checco: I am reverting your edit regarding the transition from the Green Committees of Correspondence to the Greens/Green Party USA. At the annual gathering of the GCoC in 1990 or 1991, it was agreed to change its name to the G/GPUSA to reflect both movement and electoral roles of the organization. A split in the group did not occur until after 2000, although the Association of State Green Parties increasingly distanced itself from the G/GPUSA in the late 1990s. - A separate, unrelated group called the Committees of Correspondence arose from the Communist Party USA during the 1990s. Bcharles (talk) 14:31, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I see. What about this? --Checco (talk) 16:24, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

That looks to be a fair characterization. I couldn't phrase it better myself.

btw: The term left-wing seems marginalizing to my ear. It is what i would use to describe the Socialist Workers Party or Party for Socialism and Liberation. Although social justice is a core value of the Greens, they are not particularly leftist. I will leave this alone, now. Bcharles (talk) 17:21, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Good. Thanks!

What about removing "left-wing" (from the intro, not the infobox) altogether?

But aren't the SWP and the PSL far-left rather than left-wing parties? In my view, Democrats are center-left, Greens, Democratic Socialists and Progressives left-wing, Socialists and Communists far-left. Would you agree? --Checco (talk) 17:43, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

The terminology is used so inconsistently it is better to avoid it. I think though most sources though use the term left strictly to refer to socialist groups, at least that is what I find when I do a Google book search. TFD (talk) 19:17, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

That terminology is used in virtually every Wikipedia article on political parties and, even though I agree that political positions (as well as political ideologies) are often used inconsistently from country to country, decade to decade), political positions are quite useful for readers. Anyway, our discussion here is about leaving or removing "left-wing" from the intro of this article. What does Bcharles think? --Checco (talk) 09:14, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

So instead of having a discussion in the Green Party article about where that ideology fits into the political spectrum, we have that discussion across articles about all the different green parties, with different results, and similar arguments across ariticles about hundreds of political parties, potentially thousands. No mainstream reliable source would ever use the term "left" without explicitly or implicitly making clear what they meant. TFD (talk) 17:39, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I definitely support separate discussions. Green parties differ one from another: they may be centre-right or centre-left, centrist or left-wing, liberal or socialist-lite, etc. What about this particular Green Party? --Checco (talk) 08:38, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

They are all members of the Global Greens and in every country including the U.S. are situated between the liberals on the right and socialists on the left. TFD (talk) 10:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Most green parties are members of Global Greens, but your conclusion is hardly correct or, at least, I strongly disagree with it. Even leaving aside green parties which are not members of Global Greens (such as the conservative Ecological Democratic Party in Germany or the centrist Independent Ecological Movement in France), there are centrist or centre-right green parties (such as the Ecologist Green Party of Mexico, Ireland's Green Party and the Czech Green Party). But, in fact, most green parties are centre-left (to the right or to the left of social democrats) or left-wing (to the left of social democrats and, in some case, also of socialists).

I actually don't understand what you're arguing. The GPUSA is definitely to the left of Democrats in the American political spectrum and is to the left of several European green parties. That is why "left-wing" is OK in this case, while it would be quite controversial in the case of Germany's Greens, let alone Mexican, Irish and Czech Greens. --Checco (talk) 11:53, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

In all your examples the parties are to the left of liberals and to the right of socialists, whether one calls that ideological space center-right, center, center-left, or left. Do you have any sources saying otherwise? TFD (talk) 16:10, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Usually conservatives and several centrists are to the right of (European) liberals.

Anyway, what is this discussion about? Isn't it on the GPUSA and its classification as a left-wing party? --Checco (talk) 17:33, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion is about whether or not to call GPUSA left-wing. GPUSA is a green party, therefore it occupies the ideological space between liberals and socialists. You can argue whether to call that space center, center-left or whatever, but it provides no information to readers and it is wasteful to duplicate this discussion over all the articles about green parties. TFD (talk) 17:51, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Generally speaking you're right, but, as I argued, not all the green parties occupy the ideological space between liberals and socialists! Why don't you realise this simple reality? You are too strict, in my view. This said, as we can't write "between liberals and socialists" (btw, who are the liberals and who the socialists in the USA?), for the sake of readers, let's continue to use "left-wing". --Checco (talk) 09:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

The liberals in the U.S. are the Democrats and Republicans, the socialists are Social Democrats USA and the Socialist Party USA. GPUSA seems to fall between the two groupings. Mexico does not have a liberal party, but the greens fall between the Christian Democratic NAP and the socialist Party of the Democratic Revolution. Agree we should not write "between liberals and socialists", we should just say "green." The discussion about where green ideology fits into the political spectrum belongs in articles about green ideology.

I imagine that if the green party is to the left of the two major parties it will appear left-wing, while if it is in the center of them it will appear centrist.

TFD (talk) 16:47, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

First recognize that a key aspect of Green Party identity is "neither left nor right." Greens seek to break out of the outdated paradigm of economic conflict and face that we are all in this (ecological and social crisis) together. On a traditional left-right spectrum, in the U.S., Democrats are center-right to right and Republicans right to far right. Greens would fall left to center-left on many issues, but don't fit this two dimensional scale well. (Nor do Libertarians.) See Green politics better descriptions of where greens tend to stand.

This article is about the Green Party U.S., not the Greens/Green Party USA which might currently fall more to the traditional left. Bcharles (talk) 01:10, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I totally disagree with describing the Democrats "center-right to right" and the Republicans "right to far right", even by European standards. "Center-left" could be OK for the GPUSA, which is however to the left of all social-democratic parties in Europe. In my view, the party is more of a left-wing party, by American standards as well as European ones. Green Parties may identify themselves neither with the left or the right, but that's just their opinion and, in fact, they are classifiable in the left-right spectrum as every other party and they are by third-party sources. This reminds me of the Italian Five Star Movement, whose members pretend that it is not a party, but it is a party by definition. --Checco (talk) 09:28, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

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State List

North Dakota is missing from the state list.73.3.152.80 (talk) 20:57, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 July 2016

Presidential ballot access

Alabama, Delaware: if you want, you can call it "in process", but the Green Party is not on the ballot there. see http://www.jill2016.com/ballot_access

184.101.247.49 (talk) 17:38, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Done st170e^talk 19:19, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Membership citation invalid?

The page says Green Party membership is at 242,023 yet it's citation points to Libertarian Party information, am I missing something? 2604:2000:D05D:9000:D5C4:A45E:44E1:1BB0 (talk) 18:29, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

If you read the article being cited, there is a document which tallies up the registration total of major parties. 50.25.127.34 (talk) 16:56, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

AfD

Multiple state parties have been nominated for merge at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mountain Party. Me-123567-Me (talk) 19:40, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

That's 23 state parties have been nominated. I encourage everyone to comment and close this misguided deletion process.--TM 19:46, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

And I encourage everyone to evaluate the nomination with a level mind. Me-123567-Me (talk) 19:47, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Eco-socialism ?

The source doesn't use this terminology. All I can find is "Some call this decentralized system ecological socialism". That some call it so does not mean that the Green Party describes itself so "officially".Otto (talk) 20:32, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree. The party is anti-capitalist, and merely says that some people might call it "socialist." I changed it from "eco-socialist" to "anti-capitalist." Necropolis Hill (talk) 17:41, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Page move

Alright children, let's discuss this like adults. Why do you think this page should be moved to Green Party (United States) and why do you think it should remain as-is? Me-123567-Me (talk) 19:38, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Calling fellow editors "children" is itself demeaning and inappropriate and a poor way to start a conversation.--TM 19:40, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

You are correct. I apologize. OTOH doing page moves like that is childish behaviour. Part of why I created the Green Politics Wikiproject is for greater communication, so we can avoid things such as edit or move wars. Me-123567-Me (talk) 20:28, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Full name on the web site is The Green Party of the United States so I think it should be like that, unless it has an official registered name that is something else. Jack N. Stock (talk) 20:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Per WP:COMMONNAME - However, some topics have multiple names, and this can lead to confusion about which name should be used in the article's title. Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the criteria listed above. Me-123567-Me (talk) 21:14, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Follow the process for a contested move at WP:RM. On a side note, the starting line of this section continues to be inappropriate in facilitating a conversation.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 01:31, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Green Party of the United States seems to be the name at Federal Election Commission. Jack N. Stock (talk) 02:04, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

First of all, your mother. I'm sorry, that was inappropriate ... Why are all the other parties in the United States listed as their short name followed by "(United States)," but the Green Party is not? Why the full, long name? Necropolis Hill (talk) 17:09, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

What about my mother? If you can find documentation that their name is different to the current title, you can start a discussion about moving them. I found this: http://s3.amazonaws.com/uploads.democrats.org/Downloads/DNC_Charter__Bylaws_9.17.15.pdf – indicating the full name of the Democratic Party by charter is The Democratic Party of the United States of America. See what else you can find. Jack N. Stock (talk) 17:41, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

The full, long name is used – and legally registered – because the party considers itself to be part of a global movement. That's why nearly all the various branches of the Green Party (disambiguation) are established as "Green Party of (country name)". This is an important implicit message of the name and shouldn't be discarded in favor of an imprecise "common name". SteveStrummer (talk) 18:04, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

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Who's the second state lower house representative?

There's Ralf Chapman in Maine - but I can't find a second one listed on the Green party list of representatives. Who is it? Neonchameleon (talk) 10:26, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

It refers to a second non-voting member in the Maine lower house. I will add a citation. Pretendus (talk) 00:08, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Henry John Bear. It's in the text of the article. Jack N. Stock (talk) 00:11, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

RFCs on Third Party inclusion in the election infobox

FYI, there are two RFCs asking about third party inclusion in election infoboxes. They can be found here at talk page for project E&R.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:27, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Registration Data a poor proxy for membership

The GPUS is not a membership organization. On its website, it clear states that "we are a federation of state parties.". Each state party has a different standard for membership and many of the standards are not officially counted by state government registration totals. As such, I am removing the membership figure from the infobox.--TM 18:48, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

controversy

There is no mention of the fact that Nader's candidacy resulted in a Bush win in Florida,

That's because Nader's candidacy DID NOT result in a Bush win in Florida.---Dagme (talk) 02:11, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

nor of the GP's alliance with Santorum's campaign in Pennsylvania. Most politician websites have a "controversy" section, and I think one ought to be added to this page. I'm pretty anti-Green,

Duh...---Dagme (talk) 02:11, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

so I think someone else should do it in the interest of fairness.

• I agree that the 2000 election represents a turning point in the both Green Party's perception of itself, and in the way it was perceived by others. The section should be expanded, but POV will be importnat. For example, the Florida elections were hotly contested, with a margin of victory smaller than the number of votes for either Reform candidate Pat Buchannan or Libertarian Harry Browne. I think the "Jews for Buchannan" vote did Gore in. :) But like you, I don't think I'm the one to do it -- I'm more than a little bit pro-Green. But I'll be watching over the shoulder of whoever does bell the cat. --Robertb-dc 23:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
• There is definitely a controversy, and it is NOT a fact that Nader's candidacy resulted in a Bush win in Florida--this is flatly false, as the Gore campaign itself has admitted and subsequent investigations by various investigative journalists, such as Greg Palast have proven--Gore WON, and Nader did not cause him to lose. The Supreme Court did, by cutting off the time for a recount, and the Gore campaign did, by not insisting on a statewide recount. I am a Green, and so shouldn't be writing about it (can we get a Libertarian or nonpartisan to do it?), but this idea keeps getting repeated like the urban legend it is. It is not true, and has no place in a factual article except as a report on a controversial and false rumor. Here's what the Green Party says about it; here's an interesting discussion of the liberal/conservative tenor of the country and the factors that played in the election. Deirdre 21:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
• Candidates aren't entitled to to votes. Saying that Nader caused Bush to win in Florida is rediculous. In any case with such logic it's more rational to say that Bush caused a win in florida (he "stole" more votes than Nader) but I digress. Exit polls indicated that Nader supporters came from a wide variety of groups, and the majority of Green voters vote for the green party specifically because they do not like either of the two primary parties and had Nader not ran would have abstained from voting entirely. You should look into Katherine Harris - she played a pivotal role in this. Nader didn't.
• Nader made the pie bigger; he did not take a bite out of Gore's slice. §

I actually think the section that addresses this issue is a little biased. Here is a paste: "This criticism is based on the premise that if Nader supporters, who were extremely liberal, had voted for the liberal-leaning Gore in the Florida election, Gore would have defeated George W. Bush in Florida and won the presidential election. Nader supporters argue that his candidacy probably did not affect the outcome in Florida, as proponents of this argument claim, because Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan likewise took votes away from Republican Bush, and these two probably canceled each other out. Nader received 97,421 in Florida; Buchanan received 17,412 votes." This is insufficient, as the above poster comments, there are lots of reasons to reject the notion that labeling Nader a "spoiler" is inaccurate, not just the votes for Buchanan. If you compare the language here to the language in History of the United States Democratic Party you'll see that the language in that article is strongly accusing of Nader and rejections of it are considered inappropriate since the article is about the Democratic Party view, and therefore not a POV issue. This one should be similar then, with a stronger statement of the Green Party view, and thus in support of Nader's candidacy without raising POV issues. I'll make some changes, feel free to comment. Banyan 05:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Nader DID cause Gore to lose- a study from a university pointedly said that in "close elections" third parties tend to pull votes. The article cites Stein and Nader themselves saying they were not spoilers.. OF COURSE they would say that!

 Further, someone in this thread said that GORE said that Nader didn't cost him the election which is FALSE  Gore said it was obvious!

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6dfc/b4fce9bb55422c98aa8d27c2ba02a1324a08.pdf

http://www3.hpu.edu/kalamalama/archive/2502/Ralph%20Nader-Election%20Spoiler.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ravenspeake (talk • contribs) 11:44, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

2006 Elections Page

• It seems like the following section of the 2006 elections page isn't really specifically related to the Green Party. Could this be clarified, with references on how it relates to this party, or be deleted:

8.7 million Americans voted for withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq and for impeachment resolutions on local and state ballots that were initiated or supported by Greens. Troop withdrawal initiatives won in 34 of 42 localities in Wisconsin, including Milwaukee, Madison, and La Crosse, and all 11 communities in Illinois, including Chicago. Of 139 cities and towns in Massachusetts voting on the troop withdrawal measures, only a handful voted nay on initiatives demanding that Congress and the White House end the war immediately.Bangfrog 03:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

These resolutions were touted by Green Party members as a largely Green Party led effort. I can't say whether or not that's true, but it is the claim. Banyan 05:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Peter Camejo

What's the point of the Peter Camejo paragraph about socialism? Why Camejo and not some other official from over a decade ago? Willwill0415 (talk) 20:25, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Why does this article exist

Why does this article exist? The subject seems to be pretty well covered in the United States Green Party page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.25.55 (talk) 23:11, 5 November 2004 (UTC)

Because it contains the basic details of a particular organization, as opposed to a comprehensive overview of a party which encompasses several organizations. RadicalSubversiv E 00:19, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

As a general rule, the same information should not be duplicated two places, which you've done by simply cutting and pasting from the United States Green Party article. I'm not sure the right way to divide information between the two, but this isn't it. RadicalSubversiv E 05:10, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Migration from USGP article

Consensus was reached long ago that most of the content at United States Green Party should be located here, save the distinction between GPUS and G/GPUSA, which would become a disambiguation page. It's been done, and I'd like any dissenting users on this move -- namely Radicalsubversiv -- to discuss any other migrations before making reverts or mass changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shem (talk • contribs) 15:52, 19 November 2004 (UTC)

No such consensus existed, unless you count a handful of people popping into to suggest a move, me disagreeing, and the conversation ending at that. Shem acted without any sort of discussion, and freely admits to doing much of his editing while intoxicated; moreover, his moves destroyed at least one set of revision histories. I have now moved and re-formatted this article to match the naming schema for the Democratic and Republican Parties (best I can tell, the Libertarian Party has always existed as a single national organization, so I wouldn't see the need for separation there). If a clear consensus (that is, significant discussion involving people other than Shem and myself) emerges that Green Party material should not follow the larger pattern, I will defer to it. RadicalSubversiv E 00:27, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Troll w/ Sockpuppets alert

FYI:

See: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Ollieplatt

Technical evidence found by Tim Starling confirms that Libertas has multiple sockpuppet accounts. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Libertas/Proposed decision#Sockpuppets 2.

Salazar, Ollieplatt, Razalah, Jennypratt, Suna, Dean12, Viewvista, Fylc, Billclinton, Anilingus, and Nutrosnutros are all sockpuppet accounts of one user (as acknowledged by technical evidence), likely Libertas.

"He's a troll." said RickK

Davenbelle 09:29, 17 January 2005 (UTC)

me bad; re: removed troll talk

that was a mistake; sorry; goodnight. Davenbelle 10:11, 17 January 2005 (UTC)

Reply re: G/GPUSA

I can - no worries - it's at the bottom of their front page:

http://www.greenparty.org/

You'll also notice that they refer to themselves as an "organization" throughout. Finally, they are no longer registered as a political party committee with the FEC.

 In Solidarity - Ben Manski 

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ben Manski (talk • contribs) 00:52, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Carbondale, Green Alliance, Identity Caucus pages

I just created separate pages for The Green Alliance, Carbondale (the G/GPUSA meeting at which the Boston Proposal was rejected, and Identity Caucuses, all of which are more or less inter-related. User:Tvleavitt — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tvleavitt (talk • contribs) 08:49, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

2004 strategy

I added an explanation of the differences between Nader and Cobb in 2004 in two places.

This sentence: "The principle practical difference between Nader and Cobb was in electoral strategy; Nader advocated fighting in all states, while Cobb advocated focusing on states very likely to go to Democrat John Kerry regardless of the Green vote."

I'll address why I think this is counterfactual and biased. Biased in its framing of the debate (as being over abstract electoral strategy, rather than practical candidate preference, when both were factors) and in its language ("fighting" for example). Counterfactual in that Nader and Cobb were both inconsistent in their advocacy of electoral strategy, whereas Camejo was the candidate consistently pushing the "all-out" message. Counterfactual in that Cobb's position was not the one described, but rather, a "smart states" strategy putting party needs first (i.e. ballot access, state party preference, etc.), and potential impact on the outcome of the election second (thus Cobb actively campaigned in most of the so-called "swing states"). And unnecessary in that these issues are mentioned elsewhere in the article, where they are treated with more care.

Ok. You're more informed on this than I am, certainly. I'll agree with dropping this sentence. But more below.

Gotcha.

And this: "However, while remaining firm supporters of the party, Camejo and others have criticized the nomination process as non-representative, since the state-based selection of delegates means that each member's vote is not given equal weight. In 2004, although a majority of members favored endorsing Nader's campaign rather than Cobb's "safe state" strategy, the majority of delegates felt the opposite. This controversy has led to the formation of the Greens for Democracy and Independence."

Again, the use of the word "firm" is open to debate, and as language it is biased. The description of the options facing members (endorsing Nader versus endorsing Safe States) is counterfactual. The options were to nominate Cobb, Camejo, Mesplay, Salzman, etc, or to endorse Nader, Kucinich, or some other non-Green candidate. My opinion is that the majority, or at least a plurality, of Greens supported a hard all-out run, but that is only my opinion, and the results of the party primaries do not reflect one way or another on this question, since it was not on the ballot.

The paragraph wasn't framed with sufficient care, I agree. Regarding the opinions of a majority of Greens, I am following Camejo, who I've heard make this claim - as part of the rest of the argument for reform above. I think his/GDI's argument ought to be mentioned in the article. If you agree, I'll re-add a slightly shorter version, clearly attributing the argument as a position rather than as fact.

If you do, I think it would be good to address the other positions re: the claims about representation as well. And to address the criticisms of the process that came from other sectors of the party. For example, that endorsing Kucinich was not an option. Or that only votes for candidates seeking the nomination should have been counted in the first round of voting. Or that a vote on whether or not to back a candidate should have preceded the nomination/endorsement votes. Or that party registration should not have factored into counting party membership at all, as registering Green at a state-sponsored polling place is a different thing than affirmatively joining a political party.

The statement that a "majority" favored endorsing Nader is completely unsupported by any evidence, and counterfactual. By his own decision, Nader did not appear on most Green primary ballots, and thus, he received fewer votes in Green primaries than did Cobb.

I think the relative vote counts in the presidential election is fairly strong evidence, if not conclusive.

I don't. The majority of regular Green voters did not vote for either of them. Nader outspent Cobb by a factor of 100. And Nader is a much more widely known figure. I would guess that most of Nader's votes came from people who do not usually identify with the Green Party. These were alienated independents, the folks he was most concerned about getting support from.

Ben Manski removed them as "biased and counterfactual, and unnecessary."

I think some explanation of why Greens supported two different presidential candidates in 2004 is certainly necessary. The article as it was had essentially nothing to say on the subject; it didn't mention any difference serious enough for that kind of split vote to happen. This made it subtly biased towards the Cobb side, in that no reason was presented for Nader/Camejo supporters' desertion.

On the contrary, the strategic questions are addressed earlier in the article, and references are provided. "In the Spring of 2003, as the 2004 elections loomed, Greens began an often-heated debate on party presidential strategy. Democrats, liberal activists, and liberal journalists were counseling and pressuring the Green Party and Ralph Nader not to run a presidential ticket. In response, a diverse cross-section of U.S. Greens issued "Green & Growing: 2004 in Perspective" a statement initiated by national party co-chair Ben Manski. Green & Growing's 158 signatories declared that "We think it essential to build a vigorous presidential campaign," citing as their chief reasons the need to gain ballot access for the Green Party, to define the Greens as an independent party, and the failures of the Democrats on issues of foreign and domestic policy. Other Greens, most prominently Ted Glick in his "A Green Party Safe States Strategy", called on the party to adopt a streategy of avoiding swing states in the upcoming presidential election. A third, intermediate "smart states" position was drafted by Dean Myerson and adopted by David Cobb, advocating a "nuanced" state-by-state strategy based on ballot access, party development, swing state, and other concerns."

Adequate information about the basic positions present in the party is there already, yes. However, the article as it stands does not really make it clear how these various positions played into the selection of candidates, or the actual split in voting, in 2004. The strategic debate is referenced only the in run-up, and while Cobb's position is described, it's described as a compromise, which makes its relation to the ensuing campaign - practically, one between Cobb and Nader - obscure. Perhaps a clarification should not be in the same section as Camejo's criticism of the existing delegate-selection process, but it should be there.

I think you're talking about a level of analysis and debate that is just not practicable for this format.

Ben, if you think my facts are wrong or you see bias the other way, please be more specific in your criticism, and please modify my additions rather than removing them entirely. The article certainly ought to make some mention of the strategic debate! It's important! I don't want to get into an edit war, so I'm not going to make any changes as of now. I would appreciate a reply, however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DKalkin (talk • contribs) 04:56, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

You bet. I think the strategic questions were important, but they were not on the ballot. The confusion of the strategic questions with the candidates themselves is fraught with peril because the candidates in many cases were inconsistent as to their positions, and because the reasons why individuals supported them varied greatly, and were often contradictory, and finally, because many in the various camps attempted to ascribe positions to the candidates (for example, that Nader welcomed GOP money, or that Cobb was a Democrat, or that Camejo was a red stalking horse, etc) that are at the least controversial and at most immobilizing as far as understanding the 2004 primaries is concerned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ben Manski (talk • contribs) 07:07, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I think there's a sense in which the strategic questions *were* on the ballot - see above. Perhaps some of the various criticisms/smears you mention should be brought up, too. In fact, I'm leaning towards that conclusion. I think an uninitiated person reading the article would really have very little understanding of how the 2004 campaigns were run and debated. That was the concern that prompted my initial edit. I do share your concern about an overly obsessive description of the nastier bits of infighting being unnecessary and/or immobilizing, but the information ought to be available. Perhaps most of the 2004 section could be split to a new article? The main article is quite long... Kalkin — Preceding unsigned comment added by DKalkin (talk • contribs) 23:27, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think wikipedia is the place for this. You're talking about a level of discourse and debate that is still going on within the party, and has not settled yet. If information, debate, etc. is still unsettled within the Greens, how can it be ably detailed here?Ben Manski — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ben Manski (talk • contribs) 23:08, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

So much work yet to be done...

Folks who are looking for stuff to do could do worse than starting some of the biographical pages we need to connect to US Green Party history - Howard Hawkins, John Rensenbrink, Carolyn Estes, CT Butler, Margo Adair, Mike Feinstein, Brian Tokar.... [...]there are literally dozens of people who have made significant enough contributions that they ought to be noted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.186.148.98 (talk) 04:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, there is lots of room to expand on basic Green political theoretical and philosophical constructs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.186.148.98 (talk) 04:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I would also like to see some material regarding the similarities and (more importantly) differences between the Greens and other groupings such as socialists, libertarians, etc. etc. etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.186.148.98 (talk) 04:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Questions? Ask them through Wikinews

Hello,

I'm Nick Moreau, an accredited reporter for Wikinews. I'm co-ordinating our 2008 US Presidential election interviews. We will be interviewing as many candidates as possible, from the Democrats, Republicans, and other parties/independents.

I'll be sending out requests for interviews to the major candidates very soon, but I want your input, as people interested in American politics: what should I ask them?

Please go to any of these three pages, and add a question.

• n:Wikinews:Story preparation/US 2008/Democratic Party
• n:Wikinews:Story preparation/US 2008/Republican Party
• n:Wikinews:Story preparation/US 2008/Third Party or Independent

Questions? Don't ask them here, I'll never see them. Either ask them on the talk page of any of these three pages, or e-mail me.

Thanks, Nick — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zanimum (talk • contribs) 19:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Green Jello

I'm thinking this photo of Jello Biafra would be more appropriate for this page, especially considering it is a photo of him talking about political reform. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jello_Biafra_talks_about_California_politicsCC.jpg JanderVK (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JanderVK (talk • contribs) 15:17, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Daily News Article

I was checking if the links used as references were still working. As I'm not in America the Daily News articles are not available here. Webarchive has working safe from May 2019 though. It would be great when someone with access to https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/results-2010-midterm-elections-mixed-bag-mayor-bloomberg-article-1.455215 could check if this article is still online and change the accessdate parameter in the citation (at the moment Nr. 56) to the actual date to confirm the article is still online. If he is offline by now, let me know so that I can add the archive. Thanks Gehenna1510 (talk) 23:26, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

“Communalism”/Infobox problem

It says the in the ideologies of the Infobox:political party that the Green Party is “Communalist” but the source is broken so it may not be a legitimate source. Due to the fact that communalism is a communistic ideology, I highly doubt that is the goal of the Green Party, especially due to the Green Party being mainly environmentalist and Liberal. If the source is not repaired then it should probably be removed and the Infobox may need a overhaul. RedRiver660 (talk) 18:22, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Ballot access chart

I've added info to the row titles to explain the numbers in the first row. I made an educated guess on the second row, but not sure at all what the numbers in parenthesis in that row represent. If you know, please replace the "?" in the row title with the correct info. Ghostofnemo (talk) 07:10, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Could it be "potential electoral votes from write-in states"? Ghostofnemo (talk) 07:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

"Playing spoiler"

This section needs to be written clearly in order to avoid POV. There has been edit-warring and I am starting this discussion to avoid further conflict. The 'spoiler' issue has been discussed for decades, with partisans on both sides making arguments. As such, it should be made clear that this is an accusation, not a statement of fact. Moreover, the partisan nature of this criticism needs to be noted. Please comment here before making further edits.--User:Namiba 19:20, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Pinging User:Superb Owl.--User:Namiba 19:22, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Namiba, I felt the edits were productive back-and-forth and am happy to discuss them further here. Hopefully I was able to show with my most recent quotes and citations that it's not just Democrats viewing the Green Party as a spoiler, but Republicans and Moscow have been witnessed promoting the Green Party as well. Superb Owl (talk) 21:08, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Proposed lede (update: outdated proposal)

(Outdated: see latest proposal/thread: Talk:Green Party (United States)#Dispute resolution (re: Lead, short description, and stats)) The Green Party of the United States (GPUS) is a left-wing federation of Green state political parties in the United States. Of the nearly 600,000 elected officials across the U.S., 143 politicians (<0.00025%) are members of the Green Party. The Party has, as of 2023, never achieved or come close to achieving representation in any federal or statewide offices and had a 2022 membership of 234,120 (or roughly 0.07% of 333,287,557 Americans).

The party's best known for vote splitting through their third-party tickets in US presidential elections, including the 2000 presidential election, when Ralph Nader won 97,488 votes in Florida where George W. Bush (R) beat the greener Al Gore (D) by only 537 votes. More recently, evidence arose that Moscow had promoted the party, whose ticket may have tilted the 2016 election in favor of Donald Trump. ~ Superb Owl (talk) 19:48, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

References

No, just no. This new lede includes extremely biased language and gives undue weight to numerous topics, while also removing much relevant content. The Green Party being considered a spoiler is already mentioned in lede; though, I think a mention of the party's ties to Russia should likely be included in the lede. Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 19:55, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I see why it's not a finished product, but I'm wondering why the lede spends so little on explaining how notable the party is and what it's known for - basically, if someone who knows nothing about the US greens stumbles upon this page, they probably want to know how significant the party is and what it's known for (which it feels like the current lede does not accomplish) Superb Owl (talk) 21:48, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I strongly oppose this introduction. As stated above, it contains extremely biased language and emphasizes the party's perceived shortcomings.--User:Namiba 22:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Can someone articulate then what makes the party notable beyond the above-mentioned credible allegations of spoiling elections? Superb Owl (talk) 22:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

It really sounds like you have an axe to grind against the Green Party. You also sound unfamiliar with Wikipedia's policies on notability.--User:Namiba 23:44, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Notability guidelines mention "significant coverage" - the party generates its most significant coverage due to its third party presidential tickets, where the controversies around spoiling and the support from Russia have likely received the most attention. Absent any other evidence of significant coverage in the same realm as these topics, it seems that they should be front and center in the lede Superb Owl (talk) 00:29, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Superb Owl, it is highly improper to edit as you are, i.e. putting controversial claims into the article while a discussion is ongoing. I urge you to stop edit-warring and to build consensus, which thus far you clearly do not have.--User:Namiba 01:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

@Namiba, I am getting the sense that your political view conflicts with that of the information in these reputable sources. If you have substantive issues with the edits, I've been hoping to hear what those are to improve the article, otherwise please leave this space for more constructive discussions beyond "I don't like these edits." Superb Owl (talk) 01:15, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

@Superb Owl. you cannot just write statements that you have no proof of and place [citation needed] after it and think that isn't a violation of Wikipedia policy. You have written multiple statements in the article that violate NPOV, such as "Nader and his supporters like to deflect blame elsewhere" and then allege other editors violate NPOV. You have a history of adding false statements to other Wikipedia articles, usually related to Russia or other European topics, and have been warned about doing so in the future. Yet you continue to do so on this article. Why? Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 06:00, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm happy to take this controversial section off the main page and to the talk page since that seems like the safer course. I'm hoping to have a more constructive dialogue here than has been had over the past few days. Superb Owl (talk) 06:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the disputed claims re: Republicans and Russia from the lede. If they are re-added without consensus, the offending editor will be reported for disruptive editing.--User:Namiba 18:12, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Can you explain why this reporting from the New York Times and NBC News is disputed? I'm not seeing any sources disputing the NYTimes or NBC News reporting in the main body of the article. Superb Owl (talk) 01:56, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

WP:NPOV, basically. You are giving far too much WP:weight to a couple of pieces, which themselves are from well-known Democratic Party supporting news sources.--User:Namiba 02:58, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Is that Wikipedia's consensus that these sources aren't reliable on topics related to American politics or your personal view? If you have more reliable sources that dispute this information, I'm genuinely curious and would love to know about and include them in the discussion Superb Owl (talk) 04:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Dispute resolution (re: Lead, short description, and stats)

Hi @49ersBelongInSanFrancisco, @Namiba, @Mt.FijiBoiz and anyone else following this talk page, would anyone be interested in using dispute resolution to help find consensus on how to handle some of the more difficult topics we've been discussing? Superb Owl (talk) 07:16, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Topics that have been disputed by at least one editor that may be helpful to discuss in a dispute resolution (please feel free to add others I'm missing):

- how to structure the WP: lead, including how much should focus on what is notable about the party vs. its internal mechanisms

- how to word the WP: short description (whether or not to include 'minor party', for example)

- statistics and whether to pair numbers such as the number of registered voters with the context of how many total registered voters there are (for example). the other topic includes whether to include the context of how many elected officials there are in the US to accompany the party's statistic of 136 elected officials

- how to word (NBC News and NYTimes respectively) reporting on significant support from the Russian state and individual Republicans and how that relates to the spoiler controversy

When first reading this page on May 11, the article gave me the impression of an advertisement written by those close to the source with no mention of reports regarding promotion and support from the Russian state via social media to individual Republicans helping to gather signatures to put Greens on various ballots (and no section for controversies whatsoever), somewhat disorganized, rambling and in need of a moderate amount of love. There was some constructive dialogue and compromises and some less constructive since then, but it feels like a lot of that progress has been made in making this article legible and up-to-date and it would be nice to go ahead and get across the finish line in the coming week or so with regard to bigger topics that are best tackled at the end (like the lead, which I have been drafting a proposed version of to help start a discussion). Superb Owl (talk) 07:34, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Repeated NPOV Concerns @Namiba @Mt.FijiBoiz

@Namiba and @Mt.FijiBoiz have made repeated reversions and deletions of well-sourced and cited material on this page. The page, as of a few days ago, read like an advertisement for the party with little balance or neutrality to the most notable topics surrounding the party. This is not unusual, but am asking to see if there are any other editors following this page who can help to resolve these edit wars and disputes and who also wish to see both sides of the debate fully brought to light. Superb Owl (talk) 05:55, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

It isn't well-sourced material. It is blatant NPOV violations that you place [citation needed] after. You have been warned about doing this on the Black, Manafort, Stone and Kelly and E-democracy pages, but now you are doing it on the Green Party article. Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 06:00, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

If you have a source that can say whether or not aid was solicited, that would be helpful. It seems likely that you are a party member given your most recent edits but if a citation is in your opinion lacking, I will continue asking for specific reasons why so that I can better understand your reasoning, which to this point is unclear. I really just want this page to show the full story. Superb Owl (talk) 06:05, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I am a Republican. Stop accusing people of being things they are not. Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 06:28, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I stand corrected Superb Owl (talk) 06:41, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

If you're going to make accusations against the subject of the article, you need strong reliable sources before you insert it into the article, and even then it has to be WP:DUE. If you're going to make accusations against another editor, consider not doing that. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:13, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

User:Superb Owl, please revert yourself here. Your edit summary and your overall approach to editing this article clearly reflects that you are not interested in building consensus for changes. Your edits and sandbox indicate that you are attempting to minimize the Green Party through misleading statistics and unproven claims. If this editing continues, I will bring your edit-warring and overall POV approach to ANI.--User:Namiba 23:23, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Namiba, maybe you can provide evidence or an explanation as to why these statistics are misleading? Can you show what % of elected officials, for example, have no party affiliation? Superb Owl (talk) 23:37, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi, @Superb Owl. I'm sorry but after many interactions you still seem to lack an understanding of WP:NPOV generally and WP:WEIGHT in particular. You have made personal attacks against other editors in this thread and asked them to explain the application of basic policy to you. I highly recommend you stop asking others to explain basic Wikipedia policies to you, as you have done on your own talk page, at Talk:Supreme Court of the United States, here, and elsewhere. At best it indicates you have not yet familiarized yourself with policy. At worst, it suggests a lack of good faith or intentional WP:NPOV/sealioning. 49ersBelongInSanFrancisco (talk) 06:01, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@49ersBelongInSanFrancisco, I understand the concept of weight, but have genuine questions for another editor about its application and their view of why the Green Party's Russia scandal is not appropriate to mention in the lede given its extensive reporting from reputable sources. @Mt.FijiBoiz was actually the one who put first put it back into the lede after @Namiba deleted it. I am conducting research on this topic to try and bring more to this discussion since it's clear that more information would help it be resolved one way or another and if you have any evidence to share, that would be really helpful. Superb Owl (talk) 06:08, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

You are attempting to wear other editors into submission by repeatedly asking them for evidence and policy. See sealioning. I support another trip to ANI if @Namiba supports it. 49ersBelongInSanFrancisco (talk) 06:10, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@49ersBelongInSanFrancisco I'm simply trying to get more from @Namiba than "I don't agree" (with the implication that therefore we can't ever get consensus on well-sourced additions). It would be great if you could help to bring in someone with an outside perspective from ANI or anywhere since I am concerned about both your (@49ersBelongInSanFrancisco) and @Namiba's premature deletion, assumption of bad faith, and NPOV edits. The more eyes on this the better so we can resolve who should be disciplined and get on with trying to improve the site. Superb Owl (talk) 06:16, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• User:49ersBelongInSanFrancisco, I don't have past experience with this editor in other articles. If you do, I suggest bringing it to ANI and I would be able to chip in based on my experience here.--User:Namiba 13:03, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

ANI discussion

@Superb Owl and Namiba: there is now an ANI discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. 49ersBelongInSanFrancisco (talk) 06:52, 27 May 2023 (UTC)